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170 3.9 sounds like a good case for a full ride ED at Northwestern.

The consensus is going to be "don't waste that GPA, retake" but if you're just looking for any full ride at any t14, then this is a good option.

Perhaps shoot for this and, if you don't get it, retake for a 172+ and try for a full tide at CCN?

RodneyRuxin wrote:170 3.9 sounds like a good case for a full ride ED at Northwestern.

The consensus is going to be "don't waste that GPA, retake" but if you're just looking for any full ride at any t14, then this is a good option.

Perhaps shoot for this and, if you don't get it, retake for a 172+ and try for a full tide at CCN?

Cornell and UVA might also throw some serious cash at you. If you don't think you hit your Lsat potential, then yes, retake.

Looks good.

Depends where you were scoring, how hard you worked etc. Do you think you can score higher? Did you bust your ass for the 170? Do you have it in you to do it again?

Don't go to Fordham with your goals, I don't care if they pay you. Take lower T14 full ride, anything less would be bad for your goals.

retake and cop dat hamilton

Agree with everything said so far, your going to a have a very good cycle regardless. If your heart is set on top 3 then of course retake get a 173 and enjoy HYS.

School Ac Wa Re % %$ Avg $ Waiver More info
1. Yale 0 3 14 0% 0% $0 0% >>>>
2. Stanford 2 13 5 10% 0% $0 0% >>>>
2. Harvard 12 11 8 39% 8% $10000 10% >>>>
4. Chicago 17 5 3 68% 59% $60000 60% >>>>
4. Columbia 10 13 2 40% 40% $40000 44% >>>>
6. NYU 23 4 2 79% 26% $50000 55% >>>>
7. U Penn 28 3 0 90% 68% $50000 65% >>>>
7. UVA 27 9 0 75% 85% $80000 86% >>>>
9. Berkeley 16 6 3 64% 19% $50000 20% >>>>
9. Michigan 20 6 1 74% 90% $50000 78% >>>>
11. Duke 26 1 0 96% 65% $80000 85% >>>>
12. Northwestern 9 1 1 82% 44% $120000 73% >>>>
13. Cornell 12 3 0 80% 25% $100000 67% >>>>
14. Georgetown 27 3 1 87% 30% $70000 52% >>>>

Thanks guys. Really love the feed back. A few questions and comments based on what was said here.

akg144 wrote:Agree with everything said so far, your going to a have a very good cycle regardless. If your heart is set on top 3 then of course retake get a 173 and enjoy HYS.

School Ac Wa Re % %$ Avg $ Waiver More info
1. Yale 0 3 14 0% 0% $0 0% >>>>
2. Stanford 2 13 5 10% 0% $0 0% >>>>
2. Harvard 12 11 8 39% 8% $10000 10% >>>>
4. Chicago 17 5 3 68% 59% $60000 60% >>>>
4. Columbia 10 13 2 40% 40% $40000 44% >>>>
6. NYU 23 4 2 79% 26% $50000 55% >>>>
7. U Penn 28 3 0 90% 68% $50000 65% >>>>
7. UVA 27 9 0 75% 85% $80000 86% >>>>
9. Berkeley 16 6 3 64% 19% $50000 20% >>>>
9. Michigan 20 6 1 74% 90% $50000 78% >>>>
11. Duke 26 1 0 96% 65% $80000 85% >>>>
12. Northwestern 9 1 1 82% 44% $120000 73% >>>>
13. Cornell 12 3 0 80% 25% $100000 67% >>>>
14. Georgetown 27 3 1 87% 30% $70000 52% >>>>

1. How do I read this above info. Is it saying that 67% of applicants with my stats got about $100k at Cornell? Looking at above NU at 73% for 120k looks best right?

2. How much would be the max amount of fin aid one could get from HYS? I have a $62k yr/income, so I assume I would not get any. Unless they look at my parents financials? I support my parents and they have no income so maybe??

3. I've been heavily considering just EDing at NU. It's not full tuition but that 150k will be very close if I get accepted. I would do this if I have 0 shot of getting better money at the other schools.

4. I'd prefer to stay in NY though if possible. I tried HARD for the 170, so I'm scared that I might score lower and screw that up. At what lsat score would it make sense for me to NOT ED at NU? 174? 175?

CPAn00b wrote:
1. How do I read this above info. Is it saying that 67% of applicants with my stats got about $100k at Cornell? Looking at above NU at 73% for 120k looks best right?

2. How much would be the max amount of fin aid one could get from HYS? I have a $62k yr/income, so I assume I would not get any. Unless they look at my parents financials? I support my parents and they have no income so maybe??

3. I've been heavily considering just EDing at NU. It's not full tuition but that 150k will be very close if I get accepted. I would do this if I have 0 shot of getting better money at the other schools.

4. I'd prefer to stay in NY though if possible. I tried HARD for the 170, so I'm scared that I might score lower and screw that up. At what lsat score would it make sense for me to NOT ED at NU? 174? 175?

1. The above info says NU is the best.
2. To my knowledge, they don't give merit-based money so it would have to be need-based. I hear they are generous with that but I have no personal knowledge.
3. ED NU is the best shot you have at a "full ride" in the t14.
4. If you have HYS numbers, it's a crapshoot whether you can snag a full ride at CCN (obviously higher numbers help, but there are people with full rides with perfect scores and basic HYS scores--this would be where you should check LSN if you want a good idea of number requirements.). What point you should take the risk of not EDing at NU is completely up to you.

RodneyRuxin wrote:

CPAn00b wrote:
1. How do I read this above info. Is it saying that 67% of applicants with my stats got about $100k at Cornell? Looking at above NU at 73% for 120k looks best right?

2. How much would be the max amount of fin aid one could get from HYS? I have a $62k yr/income, so I assume I would not get any. Unless they look at my parents financials? I support my parents and they have no income so maybe??

3. I've been heavily considering just EDing at NU. It's not full tuition but that 150k will be very close if I get accepted. I would do this if I have 0 shot of getting better money at the other schools.

4. I'd prefer to stay in NY though if possible. I tried HARD for the 170, so I'm scared that I might score lower and screw that up. At what lsat score would it make sense for me to NOT ED at NU? 174? 175?

1. The above info says NU is the best.
2. To my knowledge, they don't give merit-based money so it would have to be need-based. I hear they are generous with that but I have no personal knowledge.
3. ED NU is the best shot you have at a "full ride" in the t14.
4. If you have HYS numbers, it's a crapshoot whether you can snag a full ride at CCN (obviously higher numbers help, but there are people with full rides with perfect scores and basic HYS scores--this would be where you should check LSN if you want a good idea of number requirements.). What point you should take the risk of not EDing at NU is completely up to you.

I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

paglababa wrote:
I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

Agreed, but it was my impression OP was tossing around the idea of retaking and shooting for a CCN full ride (which would be possible). The thing is, these full rides are not simply numbers driven and, for example, I believe that my school tries to find superstars (very personable, unique experiences/interests, etc.) that have high numbers.

My speculation would be that they are trying to snag potential yale/stanford admits, so softs come more into play (just as they do at those schools).

tl;dr full rides at CCN aren't guessable on a purely numbers-oriented basis and OP needs to decide if the risk of not getting one is worth it.

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

Agreed, but it was my impression OP was tossing around the idea of retaking and shooting for a CCN full ride (which would be possible). The thing is, these full rides are not simply numbers driven and, for example, I believe that my school tries to find superstars (very personable, unique experiences/interests, etc.) that have high numbers.

My speculation would be that they are trying to snag potential yale/stanford admits, so softs come more into play (just as they do at those schools).

tl;dr full rides at CCN aren't guessable on a purely numbers-oriented basis and OP needs to decide if the risk of not getting one is worth it.

FWIW I was contemplating retaking a 99th% score for the Hamilton, but was convinced not to by some TLSers. One person had a 176/177 and 3.9+ and tried to negotiate getting one, to no avail. Others told me that softs are a big factor, especially UG prestige. I ultimately decided that given my mediocre softs, it was not worth it to retake for an unlikely chance at a CCN full ride, especially with the Ruby gone.

edit: GPA > 75%

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

Agreed, but it was my impression OP was tossing around the idea of retaking and shooting for a CCN full ride (which would be possible). The thing is, these full rides are not simply numbers driven and, for example, I believe that my school tries to find superstars (very personable, unique experiences/interests, etc.) that have high numbers.

My speculation would be that they are trying to snag potential yale/stanford admits, so softs come more into play (just as they do at those schools).

tl;dr full rides at CCN aren't guessable on a purely numbers-oriented basis and OP needs to decide if the risk of not getting one is worth it.

I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

paglababa wrote:
I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

There's also a non-trivial chance of OP getting a full ride at NU without ED (if he/she were to retake and get 175+). I have a friend who this happened to.

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

There's also a non-trivial chance of OP getting a full ride at NU without ED (if he/she were to retake and get 175+). I have a friend who this happened to.

Which cycle? Was it recent? That would be the best outcome but I can't find statistics of how many people got a 150k offer at NU 2012-2013 cycle WITHOUT ed.

paglababa wrote:

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

There's also a non-trivial chance of OP getting a full ride at NU without ED (if he/she were to retake and get 175+). I have a friend who this happened to.

Which cycle? Was it recent? That would be the best outcome but I can't find statistics of how many people got a 150k offer at NU 2012-2013 cycle WITHOUT ed.

Two years ago. Didn't report it on LSN.

You may be able to snag some full-rides now (maybe a Darrow or something) in the lower T-14, but I don't think a retake can hurt here. You should be able, with a couple of points, easily get 135k+ at UVA and Duke, and be in contention for some big schollys at CCN.

paglababa wrote:

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

Agreed, but it was my impression OP was tossing around the idea of retaking and shooting for a CCN full ride (which would be possible). The thing is, these full rides are not simply numbers driven and, for example, I believe that my school tries to find superstars (very personable, unique experiences/interests, etc.) that have high numbers.

My speculation would be that they are trying to snag potential yale/stanford admits, so softs come more into play (just as they do at those schools).

tl;dr full rides at CCN aren't guessable on a purely numbers-oriented basis and OP needs to decide if the risk of not getting one is worth it.

I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

What is the ball park, grades-wise, for a Butler?

Humbert Humbert wrote:

paglababa wrote:

RodneyRuxin wrote:

paglababa wrote:
I think you need to ED at NU. I ran a filter on LSN for users with 170 and a gpa btwn 3.92 and 4.0, and almost no one got full ride. At most you will end up with like 120k at UVA or something.

Agreed, but it was my impression OP was tossing around the idea of retaking and shooting for a CCN full ride (which would be possible). The thing is, these full rides are not simply numbers driven and, for example, I believe that my school tries to find superstars (very personable, unique experiences/interests, etc.) that have high numbers.

My speculation would be that they are trying to snag potential yale/stanford admits, so softs come more into play (just as they do at those schools).

tl;dr full rides at CCN aren't guessable on a purely numbers-oriented basis and OP needs to decide if the risk of not getting one is worth it.

I see. OP needs atleast a 174+ for CCN I would say and even then, as you mentioned, it would still be a black box in terms of getting $$$. Would OP be happy with even a Butler at Columbia for half, as opposed to a full 150k at NU? I wonder if UChicago is going to give out any full rides this year. This would be the first post- Ruby cycle so it should be interesting.

I say retake LSAT and see what you score is at end of Oct. If it's not above 174, easy choice where you can ED to NU. If it's 175+ I think you will have a hard decision to make. It would be much easier to make the decision to NOT ED in that situation, if you would be ok going to HYS close to sticker if no $$$ at CCN.

What is the ball park, grades-wise, for a Butler?

Looks like the numbers overlap with those who receieved the Hamilton. So honestly, no way to predict if one would get Hamilton, Butler, or any of these named scholarships, since it looks like yale-esq softs are at play.

I think NW would give you the best chance at a full ride. Like everyone else said, it would be hard to speculate about the other schools.

W/r/t Virginia, UVA's scholarship process is formulaic enough that you could reasonably expect 100k if you applied with a 170/3.9. This cycle, one person with your stats got 140k but I think that's due to softs. 1 more point on the LSAT and you could reasonably expect 130k, and with a 172/3.9, you'd have a very good chance at a full ride to UVA.

In other words, definitely retake. 1 more point = 30k, 2 pts = 50k

Given the blackbox mysterious nature of how scholly decisions are made at the top schools, rather than basing it on scholly options/possibilities from various schools with your current numbers and/or a different potential LSAT score, perhaps the most important factor to base your decision on is how strongly do you really believe you will actually score higher than 170, including what you believe your chances are of scoring below 170 on a re-take.

If there is a decent chance that you will not break 170 next time then you would be taking a risk that a lower more recent score could hurt your scholarship chances from what they would be with only the 170 score. While schools saying they only take your highest LSAT score and the notion that other scores don't matter except to HYS makes re-taking sound like a risk free idea, in this context a second score that is lower could hurt you, not so much for admission, but for $$$ since it would be adding a slight tarnish to your application and denying free $$ is much easier to do for small reasons than is denying admission instead of accepting due to less $$ to be awarded than seats to fill.

If you think there is a non-trivial chance that you will not score 170 or higher on a re-take, then you should seriously consider not taking the gamble and just let it ride with your current numbers. You have to be very honest with yourself when evaluating what you think your chances of scoring higher really are and use your previous prep experiences as a reality gauge/alert. If you really busted your arse prepping close to as hard, as much, as smart, and for as long as you could do to get a high score last time to reach 170, and if it represents the top or close to the top of your near test day prep range, it would probably be better not to re-take.

OP here. Took the valuable advice provided here and I've decided to sign up for the Oct LSAT. Jeffort, thanks for the words of caution, and rightfully so. I agree that scoring below a 170 on a retake may nontrivially hurt my chances at even ED at NU. I'm going to see if I can PT consistently over 170, and if not, I'll withdraw from the test. I'll probably revive this thread once I have a new score in hand to poll whether I should ED at NU or not. Thanks everyone!

CPAn00b wrote:OP here. Took the valuable advice provided here and I've decided to sign up for the Oct LSAT. Jeffort, thanks for the words of caution, and rightfully so. I agree that scoring below a 170 on a retake may nontrivially hurt my chances at even ED at NU. I'm going to see if I can PT consistently over 170, and if not, I'll withdraw from the test. I'll probably revive this thread once I have a new score in hand to poll whether I should ED at NU or not. Thanks everyone!

Your app will not be hurt by a score below 170 but will be helped immensely if your score 172+. Even if you don't score consistently above 170 take the test regardless -- you've already shown you can get 90-92 right -- only one or two questions going your way or even the same amount of questions right and a more lenient scale could get you into the school of your dreams or a lower T14 with a full-ride...as every1 above has already said, do this & enjoy HYS.

akg144 wrote:

CPAn00b wrote:OP here. Took the valuable advice provided here and I've decided to sign up for the Oct LSAT. Jeffort, thanks for the words of caution, and rightfully so. I agree that scoring below a 170 on a retake may nontrivially hurt my chances at even ED at NU. I'm going to see if I can PT consistently over 170, and if not, I'll withdraw from the test. I'll probably revive this thread once I have a new score in hand to poll whether I should ED at NU or not. Thanks everyone!

Your app will not be hurt by a score below 170 but will be helped immensely if your score 172+. Even if you don't score consistently above 170 take the test regardless -- you've already shown you can get 90-92 right -- only one or two questions going your way or even the same amount of questions right and a more lenient scale could get you into the school of your dreams or a lower T14 with a full-ride...as every1 above has already said, do this & enjoy HYS.

Reread the whole thread, you missed the issue. OP would rather T14 full ride over HYS, as stated by him in the original message. You're right that a lowerscore may not affect his chances at admission and that a higher score will only help, but that is not the issue at hand. A lower score may affect his chances at meritmoney and no way to prove or disprove this. Merit decisions are a BLACKBOX. Looking at an applicant with a 170 and then a 168 could give even the slightest of reasons for an adcom to go "nah lets just give him 50k not 150k."

edit: But bottom line, I agree you should retake OP if you are PTing over 170 consistently before the exam. Your gpa warrants a retake. You could end up at a better school than North Western with a close to full ride.