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How much time to you spend deciding whether it's worthwhile to "frame out" the different possible arrangements of a game?

I watched the 7sage video for PT27/game 4, and he pretty much framed it all the way out (even though he only framed four of the six total possibilities, the other two only differ trivially from two of his frames).

Of course, framing the game out made it *really* easy to answer the questions (except for the last one, since it involved a rule change), but I thought the "conventional wisdom" was not to frame unless you know that there will only be 2-3 different arrangements?

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ScottRiqui wrote: Of course, framing the game out made it *really* easy to answer the questions (except for the last one, since it involved a rule change), but I thought the "conventional wisdom" was not to frame unless you know that there will only be 2-3 different arrangements?

Well, some games are just really conducive to writing everything out. Like, you spend 4-5 minutes creating all the possible diagrams, and then you can finish the questions in under 2 minutes.

The mulch and stone game is a good example of this.

I just go with my gut. I make basic inferences, and if the inferences lead to some obvious diagrams then I write them out. If those obvious diagrams then lead to more things, then I continue with them. I stop when I hit the first real block and go onto the questions. Typically those diagrams I made will show up in the questions.

magickware wrote:
I just go with my gut. I make basic inferences, and if the inferences lead to some obvious diagrams then I write them out. If those obvious diagrams then lead to more things, then I continue with them. I stop when I hit the first real block and go onto the questions. Typically those diagrams I made will show up in the questions.

So if you have a rule that says "H must go in slot 1 or slot 6", you don't automatically start framing those two possiblities, right? I think that was my confusion - there are lots of games where I *could* frame, but I just need to develop my sense of when it's a *good idea* to frame them. I didn't frame the Orange/Green/Purple cars either, and I didn't feel like it necessarily slowed me down, although I didn't grasp all of the inferences as quickly as Daily_Double did in his explanation above.

I do, actually. It doesn't take a lot of time to create two small diagrams to plug them in, and sometimes it is quite worthwhile to visually represent things like that. I do think this is more of personal ability though. I have a difficult time visualizing things mentally, and as such have to write things down. I would imagine folks with better mental abilities can just think about it the rules in their mind and come up with inferences. I can't- I have a much easier time when I see one diagram with H in 1 and another with H in 6. I can then see how the rules interact better.

Fundamentally though, LGs all come down to two types-

1) The key is in the rules and the stimulus, and if you understand it then the game is cake.
2) There is no key in the rules and the stimulus, and you need to utilize information given in the questions to create the keys for each question.

Those that fit into #1 will show itself as you continue creating inferences and diagrams. Those that fit into #2 will just leave you with a big block while you create inferences. In both cases I've always found it better to just continue diagramming things until you reach the end, either it being important diagrams or a big block.

Again though, I think I do this because I suck at visualizing things mentally. I always forget things when I neglect to diagram or otherwise write them down in some fashion.

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Daily_Double wrote:Hey ScottRiqui, how is your LG progress? I seem to remember you being lights out in LR and RC, and it seems you're putting in the work, so do you see the light at the end of the tunnel yet?

It's going well, thanks. I'm seeing some games that I did months ago and remember having problems with them, and they don't seem as bad now (and it's not because I'm remembering the answers). I'm picking up more of the inferences, so more of the questions are of the "read the answer off my diagram" variety now.

I've already committed to re-taking, so at this point, I'm only waiting for my June score out of a sense of morbid curiosity. I truly believe that half of my missed points were in LG, possibly up to two-thirds.

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Just as an update, I'm really digging this "frame everything you can" strategy. I just did one game where it felt like I was spending forever writing out the frames, but as a result of all that up-front work, the questions went down boom-boom-boom, and I ended up finishing the game in 3:27 without any mistakes.

ScottRiqui wrote:Just as an update, I'm really digging this "frame everything you can" strategy. I just did one game where it felt like I was spending forever writing out the frames, but as a result of all that up-front work, the questions went down boom-boom-boom, and I ended up finishing the game in 3:27 without any mistakes.

I try to use this strategy as much as possible too. I learned it, mainly, from watching 7sage videos. Before I learned it, I felt lost much of the time doing most logic games.