3.2 GPA, 165, 172. Advisability of a retake? Forum

[Kabuo]

Before people tell me not to retake a 172, let me explain. I averaged a 173.5 over the 30 prep tests I took, and was averaging a 177 on the last 10 (pts 50-59), with a 180 on 59. Games remain my weakest section despite all of my work on them. On the October test, I breezed through my first 4 sections and the first 3/4 of section 5 (games), before misdiagramming a rule on the nurses game and missing 5 on that. I got to that last game with 13 minutes and just froze after I saw that some questions were unsolveable with my diagram. So, on October's test, I missed 9 overall and 6 on games, which would have obviously been a very nice score if I had aced games.

My cycle is not playing out like I had hoped it would. I have a 3.2 LSAC GPA, so my LSAT is really all I have to offer. I got rolled over to RD after EDing to UM. I got outright dinged at UVA when I sent an ED contract to them on 12/15. I am in at WUSTL, but still waiting on UCLA, Vandy, Alabama, and Notre Dame. I just sent out emergency apps to Cornell and GULC so that I give myself a chance to not get shut out of the T14.

Question is, should I retake in February, and either hold off a year and shoot some apps to CCN if I go 175+, or just sit tight if I go down? Or is retaking bad? I guess I can't really see a downside to retaking except for the test fee and having to wait another year to go to LS if it works and I get a significantly higher score. WUSTL can't take away my acceptance if I drop some points, right? The major problem with a retake is that I've been through prep tests 11-38, 50-61. So I'd be taking the 40s tests and then maybe 60 and 61 again while rereading the LGB. Am I missing something or is it an obvious choice to retake?

[sophia.olive]

I retook a 173 and got a 178. It makes me feel a lot better but I am unsure of the impact so far.

If you get 169-174 they probably will not care, but if you get 175+ i'm sure it will help a little at least.

edit: Your gpa makes a tricky issue; all of the schools that you would get into with your gpa you are probably already above thier 75%.
CCN chances will probably be the only change in your chances and if you get in the upper 170's it will probably just change from slim to ok.

If you did not apply early enough, retake and apply early next cycle.

[Kabuo]

If you did not apply early enough, retake and apply early next cycle.

This is another thing I was wondering. I'm pretty sure I'm an auto-admit at UVA if I apply ED as soon as the app becomes available. Whether that is worth postponing a year or not, I'm unsure. I need to go find something worthwhile to do if I take another year off, because working retail just doesn't look good at all on a resume.

[Grizz]

Hmm with a 3.2 Vandy and UCLA are extremely unlikely (Though not impossible. You will probably be riding the WL), considering that Vandy doesn't like dropping below a 3.3 (except for engineers) and UCLA doesn't like to drop below 3.5ish. Regardless of LSAT. ND you have a dece shot, but it's sort of a crapshoot according to LSN. Even with a higher LSAT. They like the PS some say, but it looks like maybe even some YP. Regardless, they like GPA. I am very surprised about UVA. All in all, I don't think retaking is gonna help at UCLA, Vandy, and ND.

Bama you're gonna get in.

Apply to midwestern splitter schools. WUSTL's done, so hit UIUC and Minnesota. They'll love the 172 LSAT.

Ultimately, it all comes down to how confident you are you can do better. If I were you, I'd see how it plays out this cycle, and if you don't like it, retake and try again.

[Kabuo]

Is there a reason to not retake this February if I think I have a decent chance of getting a 175 or higher and a very high chance of at least treading water? It can't hurt anything right? I'm thinking I might as well just do it while LSAT prep is still somewhat fresh for me, and if I go way up, wait a year and try for CCN or ED UVA again. If I stay the same or go down, it won't take away my WUSTL acceptance, which is looking like it might end up being my best anyway.

[iceland]

Is there a reason to not retake this February...

I can think of at least one reason, off the top of my head: You have better things to do with your life (hopefully!).

[Voyager]

Take the 172 and roll with it. Most people drop a few points on the real thing.

Also, a 175 will probably not get you into CCN with a 3.2. Check out lawschoolnumbers. If I recall, the cut off at Columbia was something like a 3.4. Below that, mass rejections regardless of LSAT.

[Kabuo]

Better things to do than maybe give myself a shot at CCN without transferring? Did you see the part where I'm working retail? Actually, I don't. I have many more fun things to do, but better? Not a lot. I live in the middle of nowhere and there are no jerbs here for a liberal arts degree.

[Kabuo]

Take the 172 and roll with it. Most people drop a few points on the real thing.

Also, a 175 will probably not get you into CCN with a 3.2. Check out lawschoolnumbers. If I recall, the cut off at Columbia was something like a 3.4. Below that, mass rejections regardless of LSAT.

That is sobering. I was going by the predictors which brought me up to consider. Oh well.

[iceland]

Better things to do than maybe give myself a shot at CCN without transferring? Did you see the part where I'm working retail? Actually, I don't. I have many more fun things to do, but better? Not a lot. I live in the middle of nowhere and there are no jerbs here for a liberal arts degree.

OK. Fair enough. But, and I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm not convinced that, at this time, you actually do have a shot at CCN, even with an LSAT score that's a few points higher.

I believe your time would be better spent trying to find something better to do with your time, for yourself and perhaps in an attempt to differentiate yourself from other applicants in the same boat as yourself, and then, if you still want to get in to CCN, try again next year.

Otherwise, should you get in, then you should feel quite satisfied and proud of yourself for getting into Vandy or the like - they're great schools, too.

[DieAntwoord]

Why don't you try something like, taking a year off and teaching abroad. Maybe TFA, Peace corps, etc.. this will probably be your last chance to do something like this.
IMHO UVA would be worth the wait over the other schools you mentioned.

Personally, I taught english in China for a while, came back, and retook in oct.. I think it was worth it because I had the time of my life and was more sure of going to law school. You also will have a more interesting application.

If you did not apply early, all of what I said times 10.

[kkklick]

I know how you feel, when you're scoring high you aim high. Unfortunately your GPA is what's holding you back. To be honest you are already a splitter as is, a few points higher on the LSAT won't do too much for this cycle especially given that you would be writing in Feb. There are plenty of top schools that will take you, I would advise against taking a year off, retail is a dead-end.

[Kabuo]

I know it seems stupidly arrogant to feel like I can get a 180, but I think I have a very good shot at a 177 or higher if I can just not have a damn meltdown on the games, and it seems like that would have to help at least a little. Regardless, I guess I'll look into some teach abroad jobs or maybe the Peace Corps. I really want to work some job other than retail before going to LS, but the idea of putting it off another year is really annoying. Thanks for the input, and if anyone has any advice on how to go about getting into teaching abroad, feel free to share.

[robotclubmember]

Before people tell me not to retake a 172, let me explain. I averaged a 173.5 over the 30 prep tests I took, and was averaging a 177 on the last 10 (pts 50-59), with a 180 on 59. Games remain my weakest section despite all of my work on them. On the October test, I breezed through my first 4 sections and the first 3/4 of section 5 (games), before misdiagramming a rule on the nurses game and missing 5 on that. I got to that last game with 13 minutes and just froze after I saw that some questions were unsolveable with my diagram. So, on October's test, I missed 9 overall and 6 on games, which would have obviously been a very nice score if I had aced games.

My cycle is not playing out like I had hoped it would. I have a 3.2 LSAC GPA, so my LSAT is really all I have to offer. I got rolled over to RD after EDing to UM. I got outright dinged at UVA when I sent an ED contract to them on 12/15. I am in at WUSTL, but still waiting on UCLA, Vandy, Alabama, and Notre Dame. I just sent out emergency apps to Cornell and GULC so that I give myself a chance to not get shut out of the T14.

Question is, should I retake in February, and either hold off a year and shoot some apps to CCN if I go 175+, or just sit tight if I go down? Or is retaking bad? I guess I can't really see a downside to retaking except for the test fee and having to wait another year to go to LS if it works and I get a significantly higher score. WUSTL can't take away my acceptance if I drop some points, right? The major problem with a retake is that I've been through prep tests 11-38, 50-61. So I'd be taking the 40s tests and then maybe 60 and 61 again while rereading the LGB. Am I missing something or is it an obvious choice to retake?

What do you have to do in the next year if you decide to hold off? Any chance at any meaningful WE? TFA (though that requires two year contract)? Teach English abroad? That info would help.

If I thought I could do better and I were in that boat, I'd retake it. Something 175+, even with a 3.2, would definitely get you into some lower T14. Even waiting another year with a 3.2 GPA and 172 LSAT, GULC part-time and UVA ED is in the cards.

I am very surprised about UVA.

Lol. Aren't you that same dude that insisted earlier in the cycle that anyone with a 3.0+ and 170+ is guaranteed admission into UVA ED, and I was a fool for thinking otherwise?

[robotclubmember]

I know it seems stupidly arrogant to feel like I can get a 180, but I think I have a very good shot at a 177 or higher if I can just not have a damn meltdown on the games, and it seems like that would have to help at least a little. Regardless, I guess I'll look into some teach abroad jobs or maybe the Peace Corps. I really want to work some job other than retail before going to LS, but the idea of putting it off another year is really annoying. Thanks for the input, and if anyone has any advice on how to go about getting into teaching abroad, feel free to share.

This answers the question I posed right after you posted this, lol.

Where do you want to teach?

[kkklick]

I know it seems stupidly arrogant to feel like I can get a 180, but I think I have a very good shot at a 177 or higher if I can just not have a damn meltdown on the games, and it seems like that would have to help at least a little. Regardless, I guess I'll look into some teach abroad jobs or maybe the Peace Corps. I really want to work some job other than retail before going to LS, but the idea of putting it off another year is really annoying. Thanks for the input, and if anyone has any advice on how to go about getting into teaching abroad, feel free to share.

A 177+ would open many more doors that is a fact. However on test day anything an happen, misreading a rule if a tough pill to swallow. Only you know how you would perform given another chance. Trying to weigh the benefits/drawbacks of a retake is tough, but ultimately a decision only you can make.

[Kabuo]

China sounds good. Japan would be great. I lived in Okinawa for a couple years as a kid while my dad was in the Navy. South Korea would be fine provided they aren't invaded any time soon. I have a classmate who just went over there and he seems to like it. Really, anything would be great. I just want to do a job that requires the bachelors degree I spent 4 years getting.

[robotclubmember]

China sounds good. Japan would be great. I lived in Okinawa for a couple years as a kid while my dad was in the Navy. South Korea would be fine provided they aren't invaded any time soon. I have a classmate who just went over there and he seems to like it. Really, anything would be great. I just want to do a job that requires the bachelors degree I spent 4 years getting.

Also, Peace Corps requires a 2-year contract in most cases. So TFA and PC are probably out unless you want to take two years off. So I agree that teaching abroad seems like your best option.

Despite the shitty web design for this site, this is a very job board for people teaching ESL abroad: http://www.eslcafe.com/

You'll need a TEFL certificate, which takes a few weeks. Usually they prefer some teaching experience, but you could make anything count. If you really do want to teach in Asia, just be white, say you're rich, be good looking, and they'll find you a job, lol (sad but true, in Japan, Korea, Thailand or China)

There are agencies that set you up with the teaching gigs. Some students have problems with getting their own jobs, because once they get overseas, the employer fleeces them. Best to work with an agency if you have no connects walking into the process. A friend that went to China used this site: http://www.marshall.edu/gochina/. I'm not saying use that (though my friend was happy with it), but they have some calendars, give you an idea of what kind of opportunities are available and what kind of deadlines you will need to address in the process.

Japan may be a little tougher without some teaching experience, but you could definitely get in. It would help to start doing ESL tutoring, even if only volunteering, to get some experience. If you're near a big city, they will likely have non-profits to help refugees (think areas like Burma) get acclimated to the states, help with language, etc. Maybe find one of those. I don't think you need to do much in the way of experience, but if you look at the ESL Cafe job board you'll see that they do usually want some.

To the original question, I'd retake. Actual work experience before law school isn't the worst thing that's ever happened to a man.

[robotclubmember]

One other note about ESL teaching abroad...

If it isn't already obvious to you, then yes, most of their jobs start with the academic calendar year. Some start in Feb, but then again, so does the LSAT that you want to take. So managing these two conflicting calendars would yield the following options:

1) Begin preparing to go overseas and get TEFL cert and job immediately, disembark in Feb, take June LSAT in Asia
2) Take Feb LSAT, prepare to go overseas, get TEFL cert and job to start possibly in June/July, most likely in September of 2011. Work retail in the meantime. By the time your apps go out, you will have a month or two of this experience to reflect on your resume.
3) I'm sure there is some other less practical combination.

[CanadianWolf]

Retake if you have a specific goal in mind & are confident that you can score higher. What are you trying to accomplish & will a higher LSAT score get you there ?

[Nonok]

Lol this thread. Don't go to Asia to teach English just because people say it will make your application better. The bottom line is, your numbers are fine to get into UVA and other splitter-friendly schools. You just applied too late.

Retaking isn't a bad idea if you're very sure you can get a better score. If I get anything less than a 174 on the recent Dec LSAT I took, I'll be retaking.

[Grizz]

What do you have to do in the next year if you decide to hold off? Any chance at any meaningful WE? TFA (though that requires two year contract)? Teach English abroad? That info would help.

How sure are you that you want to go to law school? Maybe try to get a paralegal job to see what it's like. Law school is nothing like being a lawyer.

Lol. Aren't you that same dude that insisted earlier in the cycle that anyone with a 3.0+ and 170+ is guaranteed admission into UVA ED, and I was a fool for thinking otherwise?

Last cycle it was pretty much a sure bet, as long as you sent it in fairly early.

[bigkahuna2020]

Considering you are talking about random variation at the outer edge of any test statistically (above the third STDDEV) I would advise no---think about a possible curve problem etc...but that's just my opinion

Oh and teaching English in Asia is common and easy to get---I am convinced it will do nothing more than a standard low end white collar job in the US does for an app

[robotclubmember]

Lol this thread. Don't go to Asia to teach English just because people say it will make your application better. The bottom line is, your numbers are fine to get into UVA and other splitter-friendly schools. You just applied too late.

Retaking isn't a bad idea if you're very sure you can get a better score. If I get anything less than a 174 on the recent Dec LSAT I took, I'll be retaking.

I'm not recommending it because it would make his application look better. But the fact is, if he wants UVA or any other lower T14, he's going to have to wait it out. He will matriculate in Fall of 2012, he will have to apply next cycle. And would you really want to spend 21 months working retail? In the meantime, make lemonade, do something that will enrich your life. Or you could work on your skill of saying "debit or credit," "paper or plastic"...

[Nonok]

Lol this thread. Don't go to Asia to teach English just because people say it will make your application better. The bottom line is, your numbers are fine to get into UVA and other splitter-friendly schools. You just applied too late.

Retaking isn't a bad idea if you're very sure you can get a better score. If I get anything less than a 174 on the recent Dec LSAT I took, I'll be retaking.

I'm not recommending it because it would make his application look better. But the fact is, if he wants UVA or any other lower T14, he's going to have to wait it out. He will matriculate in Fall of 2012, he will have to apply next cycle. And would you really want to spend 21 months working retail? In the meantime, make lemonade, do something that will enrich your life. Or you could work on your skill of saying "debit or credit," "paper or plastic"...

I don't disagree with this... but going to teach English to Asians isn't my idea of enriching my life. OP should do something over the next 21 months, but it should be something he wants to do.