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trebekismyhero

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University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by trebekismyhero » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:55 pm

I saw in NLJ that UM students are filing a class action lawsuit demanding a refund in tuition because online classes are devaluing their degree. When this first got announced, I did think that if I were in law school I'd want some tuition back, but the argument that it devalues your degree seems like a loser. Does anyone think that ppl will hold it against lawyers 10 years from now because they might have spent 2020 as law students learning online? Litigators, is there any way this would survive?

Mods, sorry if this belongs in the lounge.

jimmythecatdied6

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by jimmythecatdied6 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:58 pm

no causation. online classes didn't devalue the degree. its graduates did, long long ago.

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LSATWiz.com

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:08 pm

I saw a cases filed by students of UM and Drexel. They weren't over the degrees being devalued but paying for services that they did not receive such as face to face time with professors/hands on learning, and they also paid for access to medical services and fitness centers, etc. that were cut short.

The latter claims seem viable as there are already many cases against gyms and the like who in many states were required to reimburse their customers for COVID-19 related shutdowns. To the extent, schools fit into that, I don't know why they should be treated differently.

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by QContinuum » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:29 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:The latter claims seem viable as there are already many cases against gyms and the like who in many states were required to reimburse their customers for COVID-19 related shutdowns. To the extent, schools fit into that, I don't know why they should be treated differently.
Disclaimer: This is not legal advice or commentary on any specific school.

I think in general, the school context is different from the gym context, because schools usually charge "tuition" and various "fees", which typically include some kind of health coverage fee, some kind of student activities/student life fee, and maybe a fee for parking.

Tuition is still being provided; classes are still being taught and academic credits are still being earned. Health coverage is still being provided, presumably, and students are presumably able, at least in theory, to keep using their parking rights. (This is why the MTA can get away with not offering refunds for unlimited MetroCards - you can, in theory, keep using the MetroCard since they are still running subways, so they aren't obligated to offer refunds.)

The student activities/student life fee is probably still justifiable because student orgs are still being funded and seminars, etc. are still being held, even though virtually. If access to on-campus gyms is typically funded in part by the student activities/student life fee, there is still a colorable argument that the schools don't have an obligation to prorate the fee if they can show they've used the former gym funding toward supporting other student activities, whether it's moving student resources online or giving students additional financial aid (e.g., buying students plane tickets home). There's almost certainly a strong argument on the schools' part that they have broad discretion in how to spend student activities/student life fees.

If a specific school charges students a separate fee for gym access (whether optional or required), and the gym is now closed, then I agree that for those schools, prorated refunds of the gym fee should be forthcoming (if not already issued). But I think most schools don't break it out like that.

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by nixy » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:52 pm

Yeah, the “online devalues our degrees!” isn't going to go anywhere. Too many schools are too invested in online education (even before the pandemic, I mean) to let there be a ruling that it’s fundamentally inferior. Plus, case law has already established a HUGE amount of discretion on the part of schools over the educational part of education (plaintiffs have sued schools before over various things they think their schools have failed to provide that they should have, and courts have pretty universally found that enrolling in a school doesn’t create a contract that entitles you to a particular educational program).

I think the fee side of things is a much closer call - I get Q’s argument, but if, say, your health insurance is through the campus health center and your campus is closed, I think there’s an argument for getting that money back (though in practice the solution would probably be to arrange for you to get medical services through some reciprocity somewhere).

I mean I doubt suing to get money back is going to be easy or especially profitable, regardless.

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QContinuum

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by QContinuum » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:03 pm

nixy wrote:I think the fee side of things is a much closer call - I get Q’s argument, but if, say, your health insurance is through the campus health center and your campus is closed, I think there’s an argument for getting that money back (though in practice the solution would probably be to arrange for you to get medical services through some reciprocity somewhere).

I mean I doubt suing to get money back is going to be easy or especially profitable, regardless.
If a school is actually overcharging students en masse - say, in my hypo above, a school refusing to offer prorated refunds for a separately-charged gym fee - I could see an enterprising lawyer trying to make a class action lawsuit out of it. Or the state AG stepping in, as they did for NYSC.

As for on-campus health coverage, IIRC student health coverage plans typically allow insured students to seek care off-campus if they're more than a certain distance away from campus - as in, if you attend school in NYC, you can't elect to seek care off-campus in the city unless you have a specific referral, but you can seek care off-campus sans referral if you're off in Boston, or Dallas, or what have you. The plans have to allow this because otherwise students would be effectively uninsured whenever they leave campus.

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by ExperssioUnius » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:15 pm

Can't speak to the exact situation at U Miami but if a school, particularly a TT or TTT school, went to online classes and also mandatory pass/fail, I wonder if that would allow a foothold for suit. If this lasts for multiple semesters as many are now predicting might happen, the value of a degree that is say half based on pass/fail seems decreased. Getting hired from a TTT with several semesters of pass/fail will be quite challenging. If this continues for a year, will firms hire any TT and TTT students based on 1L fall grades and an interview? And, while half the universe of students might not be harmed by a pass/fail system, the lost opportunity to finish in the top of the class with 6 semesters of grades appears to be of some value. Put another way, how many students at a TT or TTT would have enrolled if the school was pass/fail? I suspect not many.

Thoughts? Of course, I recognize that this theoretical claim dependent on how long this lasts may have issues at the damages stage, for how to determine which students would have done well and are thus most impacted by the grade change?

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by nixy » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:26 pm

I don't think "the value of a degree" is a thing in this context. It's already hard to get hired from a bunch of low-ranked schools regardless of your grades, and no one cares. Also, no one is entitled to a particular grading system (see: changes in curves or other changes in grading systems that pop up in the middle of your time in a program).

But I'd also be REALLY surprised if schools continue with P/F grades. There's nothing about online teaching that requires P/F; I think that's happening this semester only because of the sudden change and stressors that students are going through, as well as schools scrambling to adjust as well. If next fall is online (which it may well be), I'd bet grades are back.

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:01 pm

Can OP link the complaint? I don't think the value of the degree is what was being argued. That's obviously much more difficult to prove. I think it really is just the cost of attending a school in person versus online, and the cases I've seen are applied to the entire university, not only law students

In fairness to the students' argument, they are paying north of $50k/year as an UG at Miami or Drexel when other undergrads offer the same caliber of education for less than half that. Students are paying this much for the campus experience, which you can link to tangible things like dining halls, greek life, etc. and face-to-face time with prestigious professors. By putting them all into online classes just like those cheaper schools are doing, these students really aren't getting the benefit of their bargain. Depending on the quality of the online education, it also creates a windfall for the school if say they've stopped paying some employees the same and no longer have to worry about maintenance. It does seem objectively wrong for the school to profit from COVID-19 by not having to expend as many resources as they did initially while allowing them to collect the same tuition.

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nixy

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by nixy » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:50 am

LSATWiz.com wrote:Can OP link the complaint? I don't think the value of the degree is what was being argued. That's obviously much more difficult to prove. I think it really is just the cost of attending a school in person versus online, and the cases I've seen are applied to the entire university, not only law students

In fairness to the students' argument, they are paying north of $50k/year as an UG at Miami or Drexel when other undergrads offer the same caliber of education for less than half that. Students are paying this much for the campus experience, which you can link to tangible things like dining halls, greek life, etc. and face-to-face time with prestigious professors. By putting them all into online classes just like those cheaper schools are doing, these students really aren't getting the benefit of their bargain. Depending on the quality of the online education, it also creates a windfall for the school if say they've stopped paying some employees the same and no longer have to worry about maintenance. It does seem objectively wrong for the school to profit from COVID-19 by not having to expend as many resources as they did initially while allowing them to collect the same tuition.
I couldn't find a UM law student suit, but there is an undergrad suit, the complaint is here: https://www.law360.com/articles/1262184/attachments/0 The suit does allege their degree is devalued: "Moreover, the value of any degree issued on the basis of online or pass/fail classes will be diminished for the rest of Plaintiff’s life." (No factual basis for that statement is given.)

I don't buy the tuition-refund argument. People who attend UM already chose to pay more than if they went to another school, because of the name, not just the material culture; they're not going to go to West Palm Community College even if it has Greek life and nice dorms and a good gym. But mostly, the tangible things you're talking about go to room/board, generally, not tuition. I agree there's a basis to get room/board/fees back; I just don't think any of that goes to tuition proper.

I also don't buy "face-to-face time with prestigious professors" as something with tangible value when you'll have just as much access to them online (or just as little; you're certainly not guaranteed access to profs just because you go to the school where they work. Profs who are interested in connecting with students will do it virtually this semester, profs who aren't interested in connecting virtually wouldn't have connected in person, either).

And again, courts have consistently held that students aren't entitled to decide whether they're getting the benefit of their bargain. Institutions of higher ed have *massive* discretion over what educational program you get; plaintiffs who have alleged that statements in catalogs/promotional materials constitute a contract and that they're owed what those things say (which is what the complaint above appears to be doing, though I just skimmed it) have consistently failed. The causes of action in the complaint are breach of contract and unjust enrichment; my understanding is that breach of contract cases have basically never succeeded. I don't know as much about unjust enrichment, but I'd be surprised if students could prove the school actually *has* been enriched, for the reasons I talk about below.

The thing is, this isn't like the school mismanaged its finances and just couldn't deliver what it promised because it fucked up; no school in the country can offer any of those things now, because of something entirely outside the schools' control. So I have a hard time thinking any court is going to want to open the door to suits against virtually every residential college/university in the country. And how can you argue your degree has been devalued based on online ed/PF grades when almost every other student in the country is in the same boat?

As for the resources, I'm quite sure none of this is creating a windfall for the schools. Living with someone who works for a university that had to shift everything online in a couple of weeks, I can tell you that the schools aren't magically spending less. While obviously you're not going to have, say, 15 students in a lab working with materials for whatever the lab is designed to teach, shifting that online costs money. Getting digital access for what's needed costs money. There may be some reduction in, say, maintenance costs (no, you don't have the clean the gym every night any more), but most residential campuses do have some students still living there who had nowhere else to go, so you can't just dispense with any and all maintenance etc. Schools do not want to shut down all in-person services and go online forever; they expect to need their normal staff when this is all over. Like law firms, they're going to hope to avoid firing people now that they think they'll need later.

One thing I noted, too, is that the complaint alleges that the school "failed and continues to fail to refund any portion of Plaintiff and Class members’ spring 2020 tuition payment, or such refund has been inadequate." Those are two very different things (no refund/not good enough refund). I can't imagine any residential school isn't going to refund board and at least some portion of room costs; the suit might result in some negotiation about how much those will be exactly. That seems to me the biggest potential such a suit has.

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Re: University of Miami Law Students Suing School

Post by B90 » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 pm

nixy wrote:I don't think "the value of a degree" is a thing in this context. It's already hard to get hired from a bunch of low-ranked schools regardless of your grades, and no one cares. Also, no one is entitled to a particular grading system (see: changes in curves or other changes in grading systems that pop up in the middle of your time in a program).

But I'd also be REALLY surprised if schools continue with P/F grades. There's nothing about online teaching that requires P/F; I think that's happening this semester only because of the sudden change and stressors that students are going through, as well as schools scrambling to adjust as well. If next fall is online (which it may well be), I'd bet grades are back.
+1

There is no "devaluing" here. The school did not make a decision, mid-semester, to suddenly out of thin air CHANGE to an online school. They temporarily switched to online classes out of necessity. They will return to classroom education as soon as is feasible.
I empathize with these students (and all students right now), but really this affected (part of) one semester out of 4 years (presuming classroom education returns in the fall). They will still receive a diploma from a brick and mortar school.
The claim that this harm "will permamently affect the rest of their lives" is a bit dramatic and a bit of a stretch.

I do think the claims about student activity fees and athletic fees are valid.
With respect to health services and counseling services, as someone pointed out they can still get medical services elsewhere; if they couldn't before, the school should make that possible. Counseling services may be able to be provided remotely. Frankly, most student health services are inferior and usually less expensive, so the students might be better off going elsewhere.

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