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FND

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by FND » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:45 pm

ghostoftraynor wrote:Who is making $900k and working a 9-5?
Nobody.

At that salary you're either working a whole lot more, or a whole lot less

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by LBJ's Hair » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:24 pm

IMO David is definitely a little salty about not getting SCOTUS. But he's otherwise living a pretty great life. Feel like both can be true.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:37 pm

FND wrote:
ghostoftraynor wrote:Who is making $900k and working a 9-5?
Nobody.

At that salary you're either working a whole lot more, or a whole lot less
Top-level administration (provosts, GCs, CFOs, etc.) at top private universities are getting pretty close nowadays. But that's why it's such a unicorny job.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by objctnyrhnr » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:27 pm

I have never met anybody who has a literal passion for transactional law. They may exist, but I have never met them. By contrast, virtually every litigator who litigates at a high level and is good at it has a decent degree of passion for the craft.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by JusticeSquee » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:11 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have never met anybody who has a literal passion for transactional law. They may exist, but I have never met them. By contrast, virtually every litigator who litigates at a high level and is good at it has a decent degree of passion for the craft.
What about this dude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0XWSBA ... be&t=1m26s

"my best memoies of practice were the all nighters"

"just looking at clause 9.2 and the way it interacts with 7.6"

he is dead inside, Jones Day killed him and ate his soul

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Johnnybgoode92

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:13 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:I never wanted to do litigation, but there weren't many transactional jobs available when I graduated law school.
I got very lucky. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but the only job I could find when I graduated was T&E - even though there weren't a lot of positions for it, nobody wanted to do T&E, everyone thought it was a dying field.

Right now, I'm a hot commodity. Nobody has experience with high-end T&E, most firms I talk to have been turning away business because they either don't have the capacity or the expertise. In my secondary market, fully half the law firms with 100+ attorneys are actively looking for people with real T&E experience, some of them with public postings for more than half a year already.

I'm very happy with it. It's the one legal specialty where you can control your schedule - clients schedule their appointments weeks in advance, you rarely face short deadlines (except if someone is actually dying), the only part of my practice I have no control over is when the work comes in... but there's so much of it right now, that that's really not a problem.
The big downside is that there's just about no in-house opportunities.
But you have the amazing opportunity to hook up with a wealth manager. Even at a small office, you make an amazing living with top quality life. All of your clients are referred to you by your “partner,” and you just charge a flat fee for each will, trust, etc.

I knew a guy that had this setup and was making a cool $450k/year charging $1,500-$2,000 a will (and maybe more depending on how complicated) and spending most of his time on the beach, traveling, golfing, etc. If you get hooked up with the right person you could have a constant stream of business and pump out wills and trusts like hot cakes.
The exit ops are marrying a child of a client. You know all their financials.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by lavarman84 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:10 am

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have never met anybody who has a literal passion for transactional law. They may exist, but I have never met them. By contrast, virtually every litigator who litigates at a high level and is good at it has a decent degree of passion for the craft.
Yeah, I think transactional makes perfect sense for people who aren't passionate about the law. Get a decent in-house job, work humane hours, and make a good living. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people work jobs they don't particularly like for a lot less money than in-house counsels make.

But there are some weirdos (like me) who legitimately like the law and are passionate about the work they do. And I couldn't see myself not being a litigator. I have no interest in working as an in-house counsel. I think the ability to profoundly impact (and change for the better) people's lives with the work you do isn't that common, so I'd like to use the privileges I have to try and do that.
JusticeSquee wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:I have never met anybody who has a literal passion for transactional law. They may exist, but I have never met them. By contrast, virtually every litigator who litigates at a high level and is good at it has a decent degree of passion for the craft.
What about this dude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0XWSBA ... be&t=1m26s

"my best memoies of practice were the all nighters"

"just looking at clause 9.2 and the way it interacts with 7.6"

he is dead inside, Jones Day killed him and ate his soul
LOL. That man has Get Out eyes for a reason.

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nealric

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by nealric » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:59 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:I have never met anybody who has a literal passion for transactional law. They may exist, but I have never met them. By contrast, virtually every litigator who litigates at a high level and is good at it has a decent degree of passion for the craft.
There are a lot of transactional tax nerds who have a passion for it. I doubt anybody really has a passion for basic drafting, but I know a people who really get into negotiations.

It's a bit sick and obviously destructive to family life and mental/personal health if done often, but I can kind of get the thrill of pulling an all-nighter to get the deal done from time to time. It's not the work itself so much as the accomplishment of getting a huge thing done under lots of pressure. But I have to admit my latest night ever in biglaw was around 3AM. Once I get sufficiently sleep deprived, my mind turns to mush, and I'm more likely to inhibit progress through mistakes than make progress on anything remotely technical.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by FND » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:02 pm

Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:I never wanted to do litigation, but there weren't many transactional jobs available when I graduated law school.
I got very lucky. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but the only job I could find when I graduated was T&E - even though there weren't a lot of positions for it, nobody wanted to do T&E, everyone thought it was a dying field.

Right now, I'm a hot commodity. Nobody has experience with high-end T&E, most firms I talk to have been turning away business because they either don't have the capacity or the expertise. In my secondary market, fully half the law firms with 100+ attorneys are actively looking for people with real T&E experience, some of them with public postings for more than half a year already.

I'm very happy with it. It's the one legal specialty where you can control your schedule - clients schedule their appointments weeks in advance, you rarely face short deadlines (except if someone is actually dying), the only part of my practice I have no control over is when the work comes in... but there's so much of it right now, that that's really not a problem.
The big downside is that there's just about no in-house opportunities.
But you have the amazing opportunity to hook up with a wealth manager. Even at a small office, you make an amazing living with top quality life. All of your clients are referred to you by your “partner,” and you just charge a flat fee for each will, trust, etc.

I knew a guy that had this setup and was making a cool $450k/year charging $1,500-$2,000 a will (and maybe more depending on how complicated) and spending most of his time on the beach, traveling, golfing, etc. If you get hooked up with the right person you could have a constant stream of business and pump out wills and trusts like hot cakes.
The exit ops are marrying a child of a client. You know all their financials.
Even better - marry some old widow/widower, make yourself the heir.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:10 pm

1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:I never wanted to do litigation, but there weren't many transactional jobs available when I graduated law school.
I got very lucky. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but the only job I could find when I graduated was T&E - even though there weren't a lot of positions for it, nobody wanted to do T&E, everyone thought it was a dying field.

Right now, I'm a hot commodity. Nobody has experience with high-end T&E, most firms I talk to have been turning away business because they either don't have the capacity or the expertise. In my secondary market, fully half the law firms with 100+ attorneys are actively looking for people with real T&E experience, some of them with public postings for more than half a year already.

I'm very happy with it. It's the one legal specialty where you can control your schedule - clients schedule their appointments weeks in advance, you rarely face short deadlines (except if someone is actually dying), the only part of my practice I have no control over is when the work comes in... but there's so much of it right now, that that's really not a problem.
The big downside is that there's just about no in-house opportunities.
But you have the amazing opportunity to hook up with a wealth manager. Even at a small office, you make an amazing living with top quality life. All of your clients are referred to you by your “partner,” and you just charge a flat fee for each will, trust, etc.

I knew a guy that had this setup and was making a cool $450k/year charging $1,500-$2,000 a will (and maybe more depending on how complicated) and spending most of his time on the beach, traveling, golfing, etc. If you get hooked up with the right person you could have a constant stream of business and pump out wills and trusts like hot cakes.
I call bull. Not on the math, but on a wealth manager bringing in 300 new clients per year who all need wills.

Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of EP boutiques where the owners make bank, including a few who make over a million per year. But nobody I know has a single referral source that can even send 100 referrals in a year. Even better, a wealth manager can't effectively manage much more than a hundred, maybe 125, clients, period.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by 1styearlateral » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
1styearlateral wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:I never wanted to do litigation, but there weren't many transactional jobs available when I graduated law school.
I got very lucky. It wasn't what I wanted to do, but the only job I could find when I graduated was T&E - even though there weren't a lot of positions for it, nobody wanted to do T&E, everyone thought it was a dying field.

Right now, I'm a hot commodity. Nobody has experience with high-end T&E, most firms I talk to have been turning away business because they either don't have the capacity or the expertise. In my secondary market, fully half the law firms with 100+ attorneys are actively looking for people with real T&E experience, some of them with public postings for more than half a year already.

I'm very happy with it. It's the one legal specialty where you can control your schedule - clients schedule their appointments weeks in advance, you rarely face short deadlines (except if someone is actually dying), the only part of my practice I have no control over is when the work comes in... but there's so much of it right now, that that's really not a problem.
The big downside is that there's just about no in-house opportunities.
But you have the amazing opportunity to hook up with a wealth manager. Even at a small office, you make an amazing living with top quality life. All of your clients are referred to you by your “partner,” and you just charge a flat fee for each will, trust, etc.

I knew a guy that had this setup and was making a cool $450k/year charging $1,500-$2,000 a will (and maybe more depending on how complicated) and spending most of his time on the beach, traveling, golfing, etc. If you get hooked up with the right person you could have a constant stream of business and pump out wills and trusts like hot cakes.
I call bull. Not on the math, but on a wealth manager bringing in 300 new clients per year who all need wills.

Don't get me wrong, I know plenty of EP boutiques where the owners make bank, including a few who make over a million per year. But nobody I know has a single referral source that can even send 100 referrals in a year. Even better, a wealth manager can't effectively manage much more than a hundred, maybe 125, clients, period.
In this instance, it's not just a one-man shop, but a family office.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:57 am

FND wrote:
ghostoftraynor wrote:Who is making $900k and working a 9-5?
Nobody.

At that salary you're either working a whole lot more, or a whole lot less
Not true. I know several.

Example: I worked for a small firm near my hometown after my 1L year. I worked mostly with one of the firm's named partners. He works 9-5 M-F except he takes off a half day Wednesdays and Fridays to Golf in the summer. He told me that since opening his small real estate firm twelve years ago, he has never had a year in which he billed less than $800,000 and additionally he earns between $200,000 and $400,000 of contract (non-billable) work. He's easily over $900,000/year working a 40 hour week.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by Lacepiece23 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
FND wrote:
ghostoftraynor wrote:Who is making $900k and working a 9-5?
Nobody.

At that salary you're either working a whole lot more, or a whole lot less
Not true. I know several.

Example: I worked for a small firm near my hometown after my 1L year. I worked mostly with one of the firm's named partners. He works 9-5 M-F except he takes off a half day Wednesdays and Fridays to Golf in the summer. He told me that since opening his small real estate firm twelve years ago, he has never had a year in which he billed less than $800,000 and additionally he earns between $200,000 and $400,000 of contract (non-billable) work. He's easily over $900,000/year working a 40 hour week.
A lot of small firm partners do similar numbers. They just never talk nor brag about how much they make. Why would they want to inspire everyone else to do the same? If your name is on the door you can make a lot of money. Most lawyers, however, would never do such a thing no matter how much money they could make.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by lavarman84 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
FND wrote:
ghostoftraynor wrote:Who is making $900k and working a 9-5?
Nobody.

At that salary you're either working a whole lot more, or a whole lot less
Not true. I know several.

Example: I worked for a small firm near my hometown after my 1L year. I worked mostly with one of the firm's named partners. He works 9-5 M-F except he takes off a half day Wednesdays and Fridays to Golf in the summer. He told me that since opening his small real estate firm twelve years ago, he has never had a year in which he billed less than $800,000 and additionally he earns between $200,000 and $400,000 of contract (non-billable) work. He's easily over $900,000/year working a 40 hour week.
Yeah, it exists. I summered at a biglaw firm where one of the biggest rainmaker partners was almost never in his office working. I'm sure he put plenty of time into business development and courting clients, which is what made him a rainmaker. But I doubt he was working 40+ hours per week. He was making millions per year. But that sort of setup is definitely not the norm.

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Re: Mammas, Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Litigators

Post by DavidLat » Tue May 18, 2021 9:34 pm

Hi, Lat here. I've never hidden my bitterness over not getting a SCOTUS clerkship. See, e.g., this post I wrote at Underneath Their Robes:

https://underneaththeirrobes.blogs.com/ ... i_gro.html

And see generally my novel, Supreme Ambitions:

http://bit.ly/SupremeAmbitions

At the same time, as another poster said above, I'm very happy with my life. It has been far more interesting and enjoyable, in my (admittedly biased) opinion, than the life of a typical successful appellate litigator or judge, which would have been the best case scenario for me had I gotten that SCOTUS clerkship. The work I've done over the years as a blogger, bringing greater transparency and accountability (plus a little bit of levity) to the legal profession, has been meaningful and fulfilling to me. And it has been a ton of fun -- for me, at least, more fun than writing appellate briefs, which is what I was doing as my day job when I started Underneath Their Robes.

And financially I'm doing just fine. But I think many of you will come to realize, if you haven't already, that there's a lot more to life than money.

P.S. Brian Fitzpatrick is a dear friend of mine, and he was much more deserving of that Scalia clerkship than I was!

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