What level of debt are you comfortable with for nont14 Forum

[notsolawful]

I feel like this thread has an inherent bias. The people with stats with T14 with scholarship would never consider non T14 with scholarship because they are more successful. For people with worse stats it can be an objectively better than their current situation but not to the standards of more successful people. If you work a fast food job and have a 3.5 170, it maybe a good choice to go to a non T14 law school with some debt. But if you're working at a consulting firm making 80k and have a 3.7 172, it makes much less sense.

[sethnoorzad]

It's always an individual decision. For a lot of people the decision to go to law school isn't just a utilitarian cost/benefit calculation... they are just following their path by going to law school and the financial considerations are secondary. Doesn't mean you should make a bad financial investment, but the money is a secondary consideration.

My $0.02

[Stylnator]

60k.

[Johann]

I feel like this thread has an inherent bias. The people with stats with T14 with scholarship would never consider non T14 with scholarship because they are more successful. For people with worse stats it can be an objectively better than their current situation but not to the standards of more successful people. If you work a fast food job and have a 3.5 170, it maybe a good choice to go to a non T14 law school with some debt. But if you're working at a consulting firm making 80k and have a 3.7 172, it makes much less sense.

ding ding ding. then when you considered that repayment plans available to all borrowers cap your debt payments at 10% of your salary, it makes sense why someone unemployed/working at starbucks would take out sticker for a TT.

[Hi-So - ArshavinFan]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

[2000andBeyond]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

[cavalier1138]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

[UVA2B]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

It was also a response to the quoted's BoW. Vandy has good employment prospects, and I wouldn't begrudge someone taking $150k debt for it. That's just differing risk calculus. But the quoted talking up W&L and the like for $150k was more what I was responding to.

[Hi-So - ArshavinFan]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

Got it!

[Ferrisjso]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

Again the way you're speaking, it's as if biglaw is the default setting for an 0L. It isn't. Don't know how Rutgers got into this conversation.

[PrezRand]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

I think you have to consider the career opportunities law applicants have. Many have a social science degree or something even worse. Even if you wanted to pursue a career with that degree, depending on the major, you more than likely will need a masters degree. That's like 50k debt for a 50-60k job. I'd rather take that 150k for a school like Vandy with a decent chance at biglaw than take that 50k debt for a 50-60k job with a masters degree

[mjb447]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

Again the way you're speaking, it's as if biglaw is the default setting for an 0L. It isn't. Don't know how Rutgers got into this conversation.

Biglaw is the easiest answer to "how are you going to pay back six figures of student loans?," but it's only a likely outcome from some schools. If you've got some other plan, that's fine, but you should have at least the basic outline of a realistic plan to pay back that debt (or forgive it, if you're confident in the future of those programs) if you're going to incur it. Of course, you might still be wasting three years at a school that's not going to give you good employment opportunities (unless you want to revisit whether a legal education has significant intrinsic value [it doesn't]).

I think Rutgers was just an example of a place where some grads do well but it's not a high enough percentage making enough money to justify a lot of debt.

[cavalier1138]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

Again the way you're speaking, it's as if biglaw is the default setting for an 0L. It isn't. Don't know how Rutgers got into this conversation.

I didn't say that biglaw was the default setting. But how were you planning on paying off your $150k of debt without it (excluding PSLF for the time being)?

[Ferrisjso]

Less than 100k for TT, 100-150k at non T20 T1, not willing to go north of 150k. I don't have the numbers for T14 so I don't really know how far I'd be willing to go for that, maybe a little higher. I would be thrilled to have Vandy at 100k even 150k though that's a great deal(I like Nashville and would pick Vandy over every non T6 T14 if I had the sort of crazy numbers necessary to get into that sort of law school, just want to make that clear if people think I'm nuts for that )!

You're just shockingly comfortable with life crippling levels of debt and mediocre employment opportunities, aren't you?

Jesus Christ!!!!! I've re-read this comment about 20x and it just sounds so crazy.

How in the hell is Vandy a school with mediocre employment opportunities???

Relative to $150k in debt, anything less than a 50% chance at biglaw is potentially crippling. Job opportunities don't exist in a vacuum. Rutgers has fantastic opportunities for some students, but it's not worth a six-figure investment to find out if you're one of the lucky ones.

Again the way you're speaking, it's as if biglaw is the default setting for an 0L. It isn't. Don't know how Rutgers got into this conversation.

I didn't say that biglaw was the default setting. But how were you planning on paying off your $150k of debt without it (excluding PSLF for the time being)?

Those 10% of income plans. I'm also one of the most frugal human beings alive. I don't drive(no car, car insurance), I don't watch TV(no cable bill), I don't like heat during the winter(no heating) and I eat once a day twice occasionally!

[uion1715]

Not to be insulting, but do you want to live like that for the next 10-15 years or study LSAT for a year to get 2-3 more points (which often gets a full ride at applicants' target schools) and live with heating and eat three times a day?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Those 10% of income plans. I'm also one of the most frugal human beings alive. I don't drive(no car, car insurance), I don't watch TV(no cable bill), I don't like heat during the winter(no heating) and I eat once a day twice occasionally!

Okay, this is silly. 1) on the 10% of income plans you won't actually pay off the debt. I'm on one of those and I graduated in 2011 and my debt is higher than when I graduated. 2) no one actually lives like that.

[star fox]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

[A. Nony Mouse]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

You're right, but we also live in a society that stigmatizes debt. And I'll be curious how the tax bomb thing actually operates in practice for people.

[UVA2B]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

You're right, income based repayment plans can largely mitigate the debt incurred so the payments are manageable. Besides the unknown of the tax bomb, you're talking about very real implications on your credit that will affect major decisions down the line. That will have very real implications on your credit and all borrowing decisions.

It's hard to be simultaneously comfortable with the substantial debt incurred and the credit implications of that debt. It might not affect someone at 25 and single, but 32 and married with kids? It could be a massive stressor.

Can you do it/be satisfied in that situation? Maybe. But it's advisable to at least consider that you might feel differently about that hanging debt when future you is considering buying a house, etc.

It's a general risk/benefit calculation, and some will feel comfortable with that risk, but everyone should be fully apprised of the full impact of the risk they're taking on, because it's far too easy to say, "well PAYE, so screw it!"

[star fox]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

You're right, income based repayment plans can largely mitigate the debt incurred so the payments are manageable. Besides the unknown of the tax bomb, you're talking about very real implications on your credit that will affect major decisions down the line. That will have very real implications on your credit and all borrowing decisions.

It's hard to be simultaneously comfortable with the substantial debt incurred and the credit implications of that debt. It might not affect someone at 25 and single, but 32 and married with kids? It could be a massive stressor.

Can you do it/be satisfied in that situation? Maybe. But it's advisable to at least consider that you might feel differently about that hanging debt when future you is considering buying a house, etc.

It's a general risk/benefit calculation, and some will feel comfortable with that risk, but everyone should be fully apprised of the full impact of the risk they're taking on, because it's far too easy to say, "well PAYE, so screw it!"

Student loans are good credit loans. Repaying the loan is good for your credit. Deferring or going into forbearance doesn't hurt your credit.

[Ferrisjso]

Those 10% of income plans. I'm also one of the most frugal human beings alive. I don't drive(no car, car insurance), I don't watch TV(no cable bill), I don't like heat during the winter(no heating) and I eat once a day twice occasionally!

Okay, this is silly. 1) on the 10% of income plans you won't actually pay off the debt. I'm on one of those and I graduated in 2011 and my debt is higher than when I graduated. 2) no one actually lives like that.

Besides the lack of heat, I already live like that and I would live like that if I was making 200k a year. I can't drive, don't watch anything on TV that I can't watch on my xfinity account and I eat one big meal a day. Only reason I have heating is because I usually live with other people who want it. So I really don't get how that's unrealistic.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Those 10% of income plans. I'm also one of the most frugal human beings alive. I don't drive(no car, car insurance), I don't watch TV(no cable bill), I don't like heat during the winter(no heating) and I eat once a day twice occasionally!

Okay, this is silly. 1) on the 10% of income plans you won't actually pay off the debt. I'm on one of those and I graduated in 2011 and my debt is higher than when I graduated. 2) no one actually lives like that.

Besides the lack of heat, I already live like that and I would live like that if I was making 200k a year. I can't drive, don't watch anything on TV that I can't watch on my xfinity account and I eat one big meal a day. Only reason I have heating is because I usually live with other people who want it. So I really don't get how that's unrealistic.

Have you actually lived on your own not in school? Anywhere that actually gets cold? And the vast majority of humans eat normally.

But apart from whatever you're willing to do, you seem to be projecting your willingness to live the most frugal lifestyle minimally compatible with life when you say debt of $150k is NBD. And most people are not going to succeed in living that kind of lifestyle. While most Americans could probably stand to be more frugal (me included), assuming a lifestyle like that is going to set most people up for failure.

[brinicolec]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

You're right, but we also live in a society that stigmatizes debt. And I'll be curious how the tax bomb thing actually operates in practice for people.

I've seen people mentioning this tax bomb thing before but I haven't seen any details of what exactly you all mean by that. What happens with this tax bomb? Lol.

[Johann]

WIth income based repayment plans, you only have to pay 10% of your income above the poverty threshold regardless of your debt. This means if you make 60k you pay about $200-300 per month regardless of your debt being 100k 200k or even 400k. For those with the right risk appetite, it's best to gnome the price tag and go to the school that maximizes the chance of achieving your desired outcome.

I don't know why people still don't understand this and seem to think if student loans aren't paid off within 10 years the Federal Government is going to send some thugs to break your legs.

You're right, but we also live in a society that stigmatizes debt. And I'll be curious how the tax bomb thing actually operates in practice for people.

I've seen people mentioning this tax bomb thing before but I haven't seen any details of what exactly you all mean by that. What happens with this tax bomb? Lol.

Right now (but keep in mind no student borrowers have passed through the final years of forgiveness yet so it may or may not be legislated away) if you get cancelled debt (debt forgiveness) its taxed as income to the extent you have the assets. Therefore, if you get 300k in debt forgiveness and have 300k of assets you have a tax return with an extra 300k of income that year (140k tax bill).

I'm on year 4 or so of the 20, and my debts grown by about 60k from 230 to 290 or something. It's not for the faint of heart and may or may not be detrimental in the long run financially. The IRS also lets you have payment plans for tax debt so I'm planning on just paying the government 10% forever.

[star fox]

Good reading on Cancellation of Indebtedness Income and Insolvency Exception - https://lawyerist.com/83690/defusing-st ... -tax-bomb/