Question about SJD/PhD in Law Forum

[juliuscasear90]

Can anyone post good links or info about the process for applying to these at Yale/Harvard/Stanford/Chicago/Columbia/Penn etc. What's the credentials, timeline etc. Any links or previous threads would be super helpful--thanks!

[Aeon]

Here's a thread about the Yale Ph.D. in law: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=211148.

There isn't much data yet about the job prospects of graduates from the Yale Ph.D. program, but if you look at the candidates' profiles on the school's website (https://www.law.yale.edu/studying-law-y ... e-profiles), they are people who wouldn't have a problem finding a tenure-track position in a law school even with their pre-Ph.D. qualifications. In other words, they are very highly qualified (T10, ranked highly in their J.D. programs, journal work, solid experience, etc.).

It's about the same at the top S.J.D. programs, although in most cases you have to get an LL.M. degree first. It's also quite atypical for someone with a J.D. to go that route. For various historical reasons, it's mostly candidates with foreign law degrees that are in the programs, and most of them end up returning to their home countries to teach law.

[juliuscasear90]

Do you know if hiring committee's view Visiting Assistance Professorships similiarly to S.J.D's or more or less favorably? Thanks!

[Snuffles1]

SJDs are not generally treated on par with VAPs. PhDs in law (Yale, specifically) are a different story (in that they're unpredictable, not in that they are definitely on par with VAPs).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Do you know if hiring committee's view Visiting Assistance Professorships similiarly to S.J.D's or more or less favorably? Thanks!

A VAP (visiting assistant professor; assistant prof is the job title, a visiting one is by its nature temporary) is a position, while a SJD is a degree, so they're really not getting at the same thing. One shows that you have experience teaching at a law school, the other shows you've completed an advanced degree. It's extremely common for people to do VAPs somewhere before they can get a tenure-track job; I don't know what extent an SJD helps get a tenure-track job (or a VAP), to be honest. Looking at prof bios, I haven't seen many that have SJDs, as opposed to PhDs in related fields (or maybe LLMs) - the one SJD I know of fits the earlier description in that they were Canadian, got the degree here, worked in the US for a bit, and ultimately went back to Canada.

The big thing for academic positions is having a clear research agenda and good publications supporting that agenda, placed in reputable law reviews. Prestige is a huge thing, of course, but it's never quite clear whether prestige helps independently or whether it's that people self-select into prestigious schools/the prestigious schools do the best job of helping people get that research agenda going.

If you want an advanced degree that will help you get an academic position it seems that a PhD in a related field (where you do law-related research) might be more helpful than an SJD. At least, this seems to be more common among legal academics. (The Yale PhD is hard to judge at this point because the program is so new.)

[Snuffles1]

+1 to everything Nony said, with an added factoid: generally (unless they already have a PhD) the people applying to Yale law PhDs are also applying for VAPs so it may be more comparable to a VAP (although as Nony said, there aren't enough data points on the Yale PhD to comfortably make any assertions about how it's interpreted by hiring committees). This is not true of SJDs, and I don't even think it's true of other PhDs in law. The one or two entry-level candidates I've seen over the past 2-3 years who've had SJDs had so many other things that it was really a non-factor.

[Aeon]

Do you know if hiring committee's view Visiting Assistance Professorships similiarly to S.J.D's or more or less favorably? Thanks!

If you have an American J.D., faculty hiring committees almost uniformly look more favorably on VAPs than S.J.D.s. And not just that; I'd say there's a clear disadvantage to going the latter route. There's no lucid reason why this is the case, but the best one I've heard is that there is a fiction of sorts that a J.D. alone is sufficient to not only practice law but teach it. And since most law professors today do not have a S.J.D., they have a vested interest in not hiring candidates who do, since it might seem to put their own qualifications in question. At the same time, for whatever reason, there's no such obstacle for candidates with non-American law degrees who get an S.J.D., and law schools hire such people. Go figure.

For most people, the route to academia lies either through a VAP or a Ph.D. in a cognate field. A select few can break through with only a J.D., but those are becoming increasingly rare.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I kind of think the VAP is distinct from the PhD route (or SJD, to the extent that's a thing). I suspect most people who want a tenure-track job at a law school are going to have to do a VAP before getting a permanent gig, regardless of what their qualifications are.

(Unless there's a terminology issue - if you mean specifically the fellowship/teaching programs like the Climenko at Harvard/Bigelow at Chicago etc., those do serve as a kind of academic credential a bit like an advanced degree. But there are lots of VAP positions that don't actually entail a named fellowship with the stature of the Climenko/Bigelow, and are simply temporary law school teaching gigs. And keep in mind that many of the people who get those fellowships already have advanced degrees, as well as other sterling qualifications like elite degrees and clerskhips. If you're asking about whether doing a 1-year teaching/research fellowship at an elite school is more valuable than doing a SJD, though, I'd probably say yes. The issue is whether you'll be qualified for the fellowship without some other kind of academic credentials beyond the JD - you might well be, but might not.)

[Aeon]

Fair points, Nony.

I'd also add that even a VAP is no guarantee of a tenure-track job. Faculty hiring has really slowed, and many people are unsuccessful in the meat market and end up doing VAP after VAP. Once you make the jump to a VAP, it's exceedingly difficult to return to a law firm or other non-academic position. Many firms view VAPs as a flight risk, liable to jump ship at the first opportunity to grab a tenure-track law school position. And being out of practice for two years really sets you behind on the substantive law. And if you end up doing more than a couple VAPs, many law schools will consider you suspect too (i.e.: why did no one want to hire you the last go-round?).

[juliuscasear90]

OP here, excellent comments so far all extremely helpful!

Problem is I don't have the undergrad "prestige" that so many other candidates have (most Professors have Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Columbia etc. undergrads and then a great top 3 law schools to). Because I don't I need the extra degree. Went to undergrad "ranked 40-50", went to law school ranked 5-10--high GPA there though so should end up graduating magna cum laude. Als on Exec. board of prestigious journal and also have a masters degree from top 10 univ. with magna cum laude honors. But I don't think this passes muster in this competitive market by a long shot. I need something more besides clerkships just doing a clerkship or two. VAP seems like a good option because you get a chance to publish and teach and then hit the open market with credentials. On the other hand, SJD for Harvard/Chicago/Columbia/Penn would add the extra credential to separate me from other candidates--and obviously a PhD in Law from Yale would be awesome. I'm old so no interest in doing a 5 or 6 year PhD. I hope to get a few years works experience too at my V20 firm. It's an uphill battle no doubt but I definitely need to find out more info about what makes the most sense in this market and any insight or advise that you all can provide would be most helpful & is greatly appreciated.

[Aeon]

OP here, excellent comments so far all extremely helpful!

Problem is I don't have the undergrad "prestige" that so many other candidates have (most Professors have Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Columbia etc. undergrads and then a great top 3 law schools to). Because I don't I need the extra degree. Went to undergrad "ranked 40-50", went to law school ranked 5-10--high GPA there though so should end up graduating magna cum laude. Als on Exec. board of prestigious journal and also have a masters degree from top 10 univ. with magna cum laude honors. But I don't think this passes muster in this competitive market by a long shot. I need something more besides clerkships just doing a clerkship or two. VAP seems like a good option because you get a chance to publish and teach and then hit the open market with credentials. On the other hand, SJD for Harvard/Chicago/Columbia/Penn would add the extra credential to separate me from other candidates--and obviously a PhD in Law from Yale would be awesome. I'm old so no interest in doing a 5 or 6 year PhD. I hope to get a few years works experience too at my V20 firm. It's an uphill battle no doubt but I definitely need to find out more info about what makes the most sense in this market and any insight or advise that you all can provide would be most helpful & is greatly appreciated.

A S.J.D. would make you stand out, just not in a positive way. You should reach out to some of your law professors to discuss this, as they're the ones that are most keyed-in to the academic hiring process. Since you went to a T10, chances are good that your school has some sort of academic careers advising available. You ought to reach out to them as well. Based on everything I've heard, a S.J.D. for American graduates is looked upon negatively in academia, and even the Yale Ph.D. is somewhat polarizing. Your professors and advisors will probably be able to add more nuance to this.

Depending on your practice and research interests, the competition for tenure-track jobs may be more or less intense. For example, if you're interested in constitutional law and appellate litigation, this is an intensely competitive area, dominated by SCOTUS clerks and the like. More specialized areas, like IP and tax, on the other hand, though still competitive, don't necessary require the same "unicorn" credentials.

I'd also add that if you're interested in tax, that is one of the few situations where an advanced degree (tax LL.M. from NYU) would be looked upon favorably for prospective law professors. Beside that, there aren't many situations where a further degree in law beyond the J.D. will be helpful, except maybe a B.C.L. from Oxford or LL.M. from Cambridge in England.