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This is a tough situation and it's worth trying to find someone with more authority on the subject than random TSL'ers. It will really come down to what kind of material is asked for in both the law school applications and the state bar(s) she ultimately applies to. Rest assured, if a bar asked for this type of information, she did not disclose it, and the bar did find out about it, then there would be serious trouble -- probably denial of admission to practice. I personally think you should try to consult with a lawyer who specializes in ethics defense. It will take some time to find, because these people are usually referred cases through other connections, but initial consultations are almost always free. And in the end, I'd say this kind of thing is well worth a thousand bucks to get some good advice.

Tanicius wrote:This is a tough situation and it's worth trying to find someone with more authority on the subject than random TSL'ers. It will really come down to what kind of material is asked for in both the law school applications and the state bar(s) she ultimately applies to. Rest assured, if a bar asked for this type of information, she did not disclose it, and the bar did find out about it, then there would be serious trouble -- probably denial of admission to practice. I personally think you should try to consult with a lawyer who specializes in ethics defense. It will take some time to find, because these people are usually referred cases through other connections, but initial consultations are almost always free. And in the end, I'd say this kind of thing is well worth a thousand bucks to get some good advice.

Thank you for your post, Tanicius!

Yes, I know. This is a dilemma. She truly doesn't know what to do although I can see that she is thinking about disclosing it. But disclose what exactly? She has not even the slightest idea what was wrong with the paper. She doesn't have her professor's email anymore and doesn't even have the paper she submitted. Maybe, meet with the professor? But then what? " Hey, remember me? " type of conversation? ... Ah!

She's also looking at applying at T14, nothing lower than that. T14 or no law school.

1. Hire C&F attorney for state likely to practice in.
2. Talk to C&F attorney.
3. ???
4. Profit (because she'll know if there is a problem, and if so - how to deal with it. As someone who found a C&F attorney very very helpful in the recent past, I cannot recommend getting one for tricky situations enough.)

Not sure whether she should report it on applications or C&F.

Just want to comment on the story as a third-party observer. The details in the story don't seem to add up to me. It seems strange that the professor wouldn't explain what was plagiarized or report it to the school. Most universities and academics take plagiarism very seriously. Also, why didn't your girlfriend your girlfriend follow up? Even "exhausted and busy" most high achieving students would question such a serious allegation and bad grade.

Mullens wrote:Not sure whether she should report it on applications or C&F.

Just want to comment on the story as a third-party observer. The details in the story don't seem to add up to me. It seems strange that the professor wouldn't explain what was plagiarized or report it to the school. Most universities and academics take plagiarism very seriously. Also, why didn't your girlfriend your girlfriend follow up? Even "exhausted and busy" most high achieving students would question such a serious allegation and bad grade.

Thank you Mullens!

It was a long time ago... it was done through email and apparently there was an overlap with another article published on the topic my girlfriend wrote about. Again, she doesn't have the paper she submitted. She wasn't just " exhausted and busy", she was almost delirious from the lack of sleep ( sleeping 2 hours max throughout the semester : work, school, incessant visits to hospitals etc... without counting the stress, anguish and familial pain she had to endure). She didn't follow up because she also relaized at that point that there was a good possibility that she might have indeed committed plagiarism given her state of mind, lack of time etc... She was also ready to face the consequences. If the professor had reported it, then no one ever contacted her about it. Again, she was selected for a great scholarship through the school.

It seems that the best thing to do would be to contact an attorney about this and see what he says, although I have no idea where/how to find an C&F attorney...

It's actually relatively common for profs to just fail someone on an assignment if it's the first instance of plagiarism, especially if it's not super egregious, without going through further disciplinary process or creating a permanent record. Especially if it's a school without an honor code in place - there are quite a lot of different approaches. (Sorry I don't have advice on your dilemma, I just wanted to respond to that one point.)

We can't advise you how to answer a question when you don't give us the question.

The basics: don't lie, but don't disclose it if the question doesn't ask about it. A good sign of whether you're interpreting the question too narrowly is if, in private, you would roll your eyes if someone else interpreted it that way.

I never understood the incentive to plagiarize. Isn't it better to say as the Washington Post says than as "I the nobody" says? Also, isn't it basically impossible to get away with?

According to the text you probably have to disclose - a D is an adverse action. Could you ask the teacher if they reported it?

BeenDidThat wrote:We can't advise you how to answer a question when you don't give us the question.

The basics: don't lie, but don't disclose it if the question doesn't ask about it. A good sign of whether you're interpreting the question too narrowly is if, in private, you would roll your eyes if someone else interpreted it that way.

Hello BeenDidThat,

Here's the question:

" At any college or university, have you ever been suspended, expelled, or required to withdraw, or been the subject of any other disciplinary action or proceedings for misconduct or deficient scholarship, or are there any charges pending against you?"

... So yeah. The way I understand the question, she doesn't have to disclose it. The professor doesn't seem to have reported it although I might encourage her to go check out her student records in case there was any disparaging remarks put there by the professor.

Do you count the professor giving her a D as a specific result of his 'findings' as a "disciplinary" action?

A bigger question is this. Has she EVER done it again?

RCSOB657 wrote:Do you count the professor giving her a D as a specific result of his 'findings' as a "disciplinary" action?

A bigger question is this. Has she EVER done it again?

Obviously not!

Listen, she is highly ethical. She made a mistake (she refuses to call it a "mistake" by the way, she calls it a "choice". A "choice" made a desperate, terrible time in her life but a "choice" nonetheless) and was/is ready to face all of the necessary consequences. Just the other day, she told me that if that meant that she was to not be accepted to any law school because she decides to disclose this, then she is ready to face it, for two plagiarized sentences or one hundred.

But see, to me though that doesn't make any sense. I am pretty sure there aren't any notifications/ remarks in her academic or disciplinary records. What I think happened is that the professor really liked her (she was doing great in that class by the way and it was a highly abstract class...) and decided that giving her a D w/o dojng anything else was more than enough to "punish" her, an otherwise excellent student (as shown by her receiving a competitive scholarship the next semester).

If there is no record evidence of this incident, no formal complaint from anyone what makes this a different D than any other D? Especially since she can explain her GPA dropping by writing about the difficult time she went through during that semester and mental anguish that continued well into her academic career.

What I am trying to say is that I am unwilling to let her sacrifice her career and dream for an incident that hasn't even been reported, marked anywhere in her records. I'm not even sure the professor will remember her! She hasn't interacted with him in any capacity since that class.

I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

That is true, and I could tell the OP what I would do and say but OP seems to have answered him/her self. Good luck to your friend.

RCSOB657 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

That is true, and I could tell the OP what I would do and say but OP seems to have answered him/her self. Good luck to your friend.

Oh, no. Please do.
That is the reason why I have come here. To get as many advice as I can.
What would you do?

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard. I'm not saying don't disclose if it's bullshit. I'm saying get the accusation thrown out if it's bullshit.

Mandy1994 wrote:

RCSOB657 wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

That is true, and I could tell the OP what I would do and say but OP seems to have answered him/her self. Good luck to your friend.

Oh, no. Please do.
That is the reason why I have come here. To get as many advice as I can.
What would you do?

Report it, and report why. If it really was stress over the other issues, that will prove itself out. I am not adcom, but I would not hold it against her as harshly as you/she may think. I think trying to explain it away is showing worse character and fitness than owning up to it, explaining that it was from the stress, and moving on. Personally, I've made mistakes and do not have the numbers your friend does but "I" would see it as dishonest for not reporting it.

AReasonableMan wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard.

Lol. You don't get a trial if the professor fails you on one assignment because the assignment's plagiarized. That's the professor's assessment of the quality of the assignment; professorial discretion over grades is pretty absolute. A plagiarized assignment doesn't meet the course requirements and gets an F. This is probably also going to be the case if the student failed the course. If you're talking suspension or expulsion or even some kind of reprimand in your academic record, sure, you get a hearing. But you don't have a due process right to a particular grade.

(Failing a student on an assignment because the assignment is plagiarized is not an adverse action. First, that's employment, not education. Second, even if you can import "adverse action," that would be failing a student on an assignment because they were black, or gay, or Catholic, and not for a reason related to the content of their work.)

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

AReasonableMan wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard.

Lol. You don't get a trial if the professor fails you on one assignment because the assignment's plagiarized. That's the professor's assessment of the quality of the assignment; professorial discretion over grades is pretty absolute. A plagiarized assignment doesn't meet the course requirements and gets an F. This is probably also going to be the case if the student failed the course. If you're talking suspension or expulsion or even some kind of reprimand in your academic record, sure, you get a hearing. But you don't have a due process right to a particular grade.

(Failing a student on an assignment because the assignment is plagiarized is not an adverse action. First, that's employment, not education. Second, even if you can import "adverse action," that would be failing a student on an assignment because they were black, or gay, or Catholic, and not for a reason related to the content of their work.)

So what would you suggest then?
Report it or not?

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Unless the application asks "have you ever plagiarized" she is in the clear. A D is not a disciplinary action within the commonly understood meaning of that term.

I'd probably err on the side of caution and say something like "although no formal disciplinary action was taken, I did have a grade lowered for academic dishonesty. In [whatever semester, year] I submitted an assignment which failed to properly attribute one of its sources. I earned a failing grade on the assignment and the professor informed me it was because of that failure to attribute. I was under particular stress that semester because [reasons] and I made a serious error in judgment by including material from an article in my paper and failing to attribute it properly. I understand the seriousness of this infraction and have [taken whatever steps to prevent stress/exhaustion/whatever from leading me to repeat the error]." Or whatever fits the circumstances. Honestly, if the prof didn't think it was worth pursuing further or failing her for the class for, I doubt it's going to be a problem for law schools, not without any further mishaps.

But I can also see not disclosing.

Good lord I hope you never practice securities law

Danteshek wrote:Good lord I hope you never practice securities law

I really hope I never do, too.

(But legal practice is a whole different animal from applying to law school, of course.)

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

AReasonableMan wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard.

Lol. You don't get a trial if the professor fails you on one assignment because the assignment's plagiarized. That's the professor's assessment of the quality of the assignment; professorial discretion over grades is pretty absolute. A plagiarized assignment doesn't meet the course requirements and gets an F. This is probably also going to be the case if the student failed the course. If you're talking suspension or expulsion or even some kind of reprimand in your academic record, sure, you get a hearing. But you don't have a due process right to a particular grade.

(Failing a student on an assignment because the assignment is plagiarized is not an adverse action. First, that's employment, not education. Second, even if you can import "adverse action," that would be failing a student on an assignment because they were black, or gay, or Catholic, and not for a reason related to the content of their work.)

That's no what I'm saying. The D is there, but you are entitled to a hearing for adverse action to be taken. If it's something you have to report beyond merely sending your transcript, it's adverse action.

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.