C&F. Need advice about unreported plagiarism... Forum

[RCSOB657]

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.

I could agree with that litmus test.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard.

Lol. You don't get a trial if the professor fails you on one assignment because the assignment's plagiarized. That's the professor's assessment of the quality of the assignment; professorial discretion over grades is pretty absolute. A plagiarized assignment doesn't meet the course requirements and gets an F. This is probably also going to be the case if the student failed the course. If you're talking suspension or expulsion or even some kind of reprimand in your academic record, sure, you get a hearing. But you don't have a due process right to a particular grade.

(Failing a student on an assignment because the assignment is plagiarized is not an adverse action. First, that's employment, not education. Second, even if you can import "adverse action," that would be failing a student on an assignment because they were black, or gay, or Catholic, and not for a reason related to the content of their work.)

That's no what I'm saying. The D is there, but you are entitled to a hearing for adverse action to be taken. If it's something you have to report beyond merely sending your transcript, it's adverse action.

How is that relevant here? The school isn't saying she plagiarized, she's just asking whether she should disclose it anyway. Why would she ask for a hearing? What would the hearing be on, besides that the prof gave her a failing grade on the assignment, which was their prerogative because they concluded she didn't fulfill the requirements?

[Mandy1994]

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.

But that's the problem, though.
There wasn't any formal complaint from the professor, so I, Mandy 1994, can assume that it was just some "bullshit citation not being clear plagiarism" since if it was indeed serious plagiarism then there would have been follow up after the incident. She also doesn't have the paper that she submitted or any idea what portion/how much was plagiarized. It was over three years ago and no detailed conversation was had about this. She just got a D for the class. End of the story. No report, nothing. Just a brief email conversation with her prof in which she learns that her paper has some plagiarism and that she'll fail that assignment but got a D for the entirety of the course. In return, she truly apologized for having committed any plagiarism and that it was absolutely not intended, if it was indeed the case. End of the incident.

We both were under the impression that all that needed to be disclosed was any clear, formal action taken from any member of the college/University for which you have been found guilty of plagiarizing.

This is not a straightforward case.

And quite frankly, I don't want her to disclose for the sake of disclosing and hurt her chances for no reason. She can as well pretend that she completely failed that paper for unrelated reasons and that would still make sense... Unless someone call the professor and asks specifically about my girlfriend 3 to 4 years later... " Why did so and so got a D"? ... I doubt Admission Officers/BAR people spend their days on the phone contacting every professor who gave every student Ds, Cs, Fs and Ws about why exactly they did so...

[A. Nony Mouse]

No, I don't think anyone's going to follow up, but frankly, I don't think that's a good basis for deciding whether to disclose - someone should disclose if the circumstances require it (application for LS/bar/whatever). I think it is reasonable not to construe this as a disciplinary action or required by the rules, but in the end she's the one who has to feel comfortable with it.

Regardless, I don't think it would hurt her chances.

[Desert Fox]

So ask what she did.

[AReasonableMan]

Well, she may have the right to inspect her records under FERPA. If there is nothing in there then she could in good faith state it didn't seem like adverse action. This might not be the best course of action, but it sounds like a rational position.

I think it could have some adverse action, because at the end of the day scholarships are not only about credentials, but about how much a school anticipates you will get from competing schools. Anything that diminishes your bargaining power is likely to have a financial cost.

[imacpa]

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.

But that's the problem, though.
There wasn't any formal complaint from the professor, so I, Mandy 1994, can assume that it was just some "bullshit citation not being clear plagiarism" since if it was indeed serious plagiarism then there would have been follow up after the incident. She also doesn't have the paper that she submitted or any idea what portion/how much was plagiarized. It was over three years ago and no detailed conversation was had about this. She just got a D for the class. End of the story. No report, nothing. Just a brief email conversation with her prof in which she learns that her paper has some plagiarism and that she'll fail that assignment but got a D for the entirety of the course. In return, she truly apologized for having committed any plagiarism and that it was absolutely not intended, if it was indeed the case. End of the incident.

We both were under the impression that all that needed to be disclosed was any clear, formal action taken from any member of the college/University for which you have been found guilty of plagiarizing.

This is not a straightforward case.

And quite frankly, I don't want her to disclose for the sake of disclosing and hurt her chances for no reason. She can as well pretend that she completely failed that paper for unrelated reasons and that would still make sense... Unless someone call the professor and asks specifically about my girlfriend 3 to 4 years later... " Why did so and so got a D"? ... I doubt Admission Officers/BAR people spend their days on the phone contacting every professor who gave every student Ds, Cs, Fs and Ws about why exactly they did so...

Here's my point of view as an adjunct professor and as a recent law graduate:

Recently, I had given a student in a Master's degree program a zero on his final exam because I caught him cheating which resulted in him getting a D in the course. According to my school's policy, I had the option to escalate it to university administrators or deal with it in-house. I chose to issue the zero rather than take a chance on escalating it to university officials because of the potential harm to his academic career which can include suspension or expulsion. For all I knew it could have been his first academic offense.

Even though I chose not to escalate it to university officials for further action I was still obligated to report the student for the purpose of tracking the student in the event of any future academic dishonesty. I say all that to say that even though the professor in OP's case probably did not report the girlfriend it is possible that he may have still reported her for the purpose of tracking her if her university requires him to do so even though he's keeping it in-house.

All that to say is that she may be okay in not reporting it on her law school application if the school's administrator did not track her. However, my best suggestion is to check the jurisdiction for which she's planning to practice and find out specifically what they require to disclose in terms of academic dishonesty. But in either event I guess reporting it may not necessarily be harmful because most state bars are most concern about candor than anything. I don't believe the law schools would care either but you have to make sure that your law school applications and C&F applications are consistent with each other.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Well, she may have the right to inspect her records under FERPA. If there is nothing in there then she could in good faith state it didn't seem like adverse action. This might not be the best course of action, but it sounds like a rational position.

I think it could have some adverse action, because at the end of the day scholarships are not only about credentials, but about how much a school anticipates you will get from competing schools. Anything that diminishes your bargaining power is likely to have a financial cost.

I really don't get what you mean. Getting a bad grade isn't an adverse action just because it makes you less competitive for scholarships.

[Desert Fox]

The adverse action would be the automatic F on the paper.

[Mandy1994]

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.

But that's the problem, though.
There wasn't any formal complaint from the professor, so I, Mandy 1994, can assume that it was just some "bullshit citation not being clear plagiarism" since if it was indeed serious plagiarism then there would have been follow up after the incident. She also doesn't have the paper that she submitted or any idea what portion/how much was plagiarized. It was over three years ago and no detailed conversation was had about this. She just got a D for the class. End of the story. No report, nothing. Just a brief email conversation with her prof in which she learns that her paper has some plagiarism and that she'll fail that assignment but got a D for the entirety of the course. In return, she truly apologized for having committed any plagiarism and that it was absolutely not intended, if it was indeed the case. End of the incident.

We both were under the impression that all that needed to be disclosed was any clear, formal action taken from any member of the college/University for which you have been found guilty of plagiarizing.

This is not a straightforward case.

And quite frankly, I don't want her to disclose for the sake of disclosing and hurt her chances for no reason. She can as well pretend that she completely failed that paper for unrelated reasons and that would still make sense... Unless someone call the professor and asks specifically about my girlfriend 3 to 4 years later... " Why did so and so got a D"? ... I doubt Admission Officers/BAR people spend their days on the phone contacting every professor who gave every student Ds, Cs, Fs and Ws about why exactly they did so...

Here's my point of view as an adjunct professor and as a recent law graduate:

Recently, I had given a student in a Master's degree program a zero on his final exam because I caught him cheating which resulted in him getting a D in the course. According to my school's policy, I had the option to escalate it to university administrators or deal with it in-house. I chose to issue the zero rather than take a chance on escalating it to university officials because of the potential harm to his academic career which can include suspension or expulsion. For all I knew it could have been his first academic offense.

Even though I chose not to escalate it to university officials for further action I was still obligated to report the student for the purpose of tracking the student in the event of any future academic dishonesty. I say all that to say that even though the professor in OP's case probably did not report the girlfriend it is possible that he may have still reported her for the purpose of tracking her if her university requires him to do so even though he's keeping it in-house.

All that to say is that she may be okay in not reporting it on her law school application if the school's administrator did not track her. However, my best suggestion is to check the jurisdiction for which she's planning to practice and find out specifically what they require to disclose in terms of academic dishonesty. But in either event I guess reporting it may not necessarily be harmful because most state bars are most concern about candor than anything. I don't believe the law schools would care either but you have to make sure that your law school applications and C&F applications are consistent with each other.

Truly thank you for this long, clear and great answer.
Would you suggest then that the next step would be to ask to review her school records? If your student would want to review her/his records, would he/she be able to see your reporting? Also did you have to let the student know that although you were dealing with it in-house, you still needed to report that on her record?

Can't thank you enough!

[AreJay711]

In this kind of gray area matter, she will probably be admitted if she doesn't disclose and it comes out, because it's unclear. It is also extremely unlikely it would ever come out in C&F review. BUT it might affect her applications, especially at schools with strong honor codes. To be blunt, but I think she would be silly to disclose it.

[imacpa]

What did she do wrong? Copy sections of someone elses work? I'd report it.

If was some bullshit citation not being clear plagerism don't bother.

But that's the problem, though.
There wasn't any formal complaint from the professor, so I, Mandy 1994, can assume that it was just some "bullshit citation not being clear plagiarism" since if it was indeed serious plagiarism then there would have been follow up after the incident. She also doesn't have the paper that she submitted or any idea what portion/how much was plagiarized. It was over three years ago and no detailed conversation was had about this. She just got a D for the class. End of the story. No report, nothing. Just a brief email conversation with her prof in which she learns that her paper has some plagiarism and that she'll fail that assignment but got a D for the entirety of the course. In return, she truly apologized for having committed any plagiarism and that it was absolutely not intended, if it was indeed the case. End of the incident.

We both were under the impression that all that needed to be disclosed was any clear, formal action taken from any member of the college/University for which you have been found guilty of plagiarizing.

This is not a straightforward case.

And quite frankly, I don't want her to disclose for the sake of disclosing and hurt her chances for no reason. She can as well pretend that she completely failed that paper for unrelated reasons and that would still make sense... Unless someone call the professor and asks specifically about my girlfriend 3 to 4 years later... " Why did so and so got a D"? ... I doubt Admission Officers/BAR people spend their days on the phone contacting every professor who gave every student Ds, Cs, Fs and Ws about why exactly they did so...

Here's my point of view as an adjunct professor and as a recent law graduate:

Recently, I had given a student in a Master's degree program a zero on his final exam because I caught him cheating which resulted in him getting a D in the course. According to my school's policy, I had the option to escalate it to university administrators or deal with it in-house. I chose to issue the zero rather than take a chance on escalating it to university officials because of the potential harm to his academic career which can include suspension or expulsion. For all I knew it could have been his first academic offense.

Even though I chose not to escalate it to university officials for further action I was still obligated to report the student for the purpose of tracking the student in the event of any future academic dishonesty. I say all that to say that even though the professor in OP's case probably did not report the girlfriend it is possible that he may have still reported her for the purpose of tracking her if her university requires him to do so even though he's keeping it in-house.

All that to say is that she may be okay in not reporting it on her law school application if the school's administrator did not track her. However, my best suggestion is to check the jurisdiction for which she's planning to practice and find out specifically what they require to disclose in terms of academic dishonesty. But in either event I guess reporting it may not necessarily be harmful because most state bars are most concern about candor than anything. I don't believe the law schools would care either but you have to make sure that your law school applications and C&F applications are consistent with each other.

Truly thank you for this long, clear and great answer.
Would you suggest then that the next step would be to ask to review her school records? If your student would want to review her/his records, would he/she be able to see your reporting? Also did you have to let the student know that although you were dealing with it in-house, you still needed to report that on her record?

Can't thank you enough!

I would suggests that she check her school file to see what's being reported, if any. As for my university, I honestly do not know whether the student will be able to see the tracking or not because I'm not familiar with how they document these things, if any.

As for the student in question, I was required to inform the student that he was being issued a zero due to dishonesty but not anything else beyond that.

[AReasonableMan]

Well, she may have the right to inspect her records under FERPA. If there is nothing in there then she could in good faith state it didn't seem like adverse action. This might not be the best course of action, but it sounds like a rational position.

I think it could have some adverse action, because at the end of the day scholarships are not only about credentials, but about how much a school anticipates you will get from competing schools. Anything that diminishes your bargaining power is likely to have a financial cost.

I really don't get what you mean. Getting a bad grade isn't an adverse action just because it makes you less competitive for scholarships.

No, my statement was poorly written. What I mean is having a record of plagiarism will make them at least somewhat less competitive for scholarships if a school either a.) cares or b.) thinks other schools care. Scholarships are guided by credentials, but are also about getting a person you want to attend at the best cost possible. Maybe if a school has a huge endowment that has to be used in a few years then it's only credentials. It's also not really a cookie cutter offense. Cheating is probably the worst thing you could do in law school, and is damaging to everyone else because of the forced curve.

As far as it being adverse action: if it's something that because of a professor's email has to be reported to law schools, how is that any different than getting placed on temporary probation?

[Mandy1994]

You guys have all been so helpful and have managed to do the unmanageable: give my girlfriend some peace of mind!
So thank you all.

So a quick update:

We called the school and asked about the necessary steps so we can view her entire school records. They said she has access to her academic record by logging on the school portal. Asked them about the disciplinary record and I was directed to the Dean's Office after telling us that there will not be anything on the disciplinary records without my girlfriend having had any issues/contact with the Dean which she obviously has never had. We also asked them about notes/remarks being put in her records by professors and we were told that professors can't do anything secretly, without my girlfriend's knowledge.
Given that their conversation was informal through informal means, this remains then in my view an informal decision between professor and student.

Agh!

[AReasonableMan]

You guys have all been so helpful and have managed to do the unmanageable: give my girlfriend some peace of mind!
So thank you all.

So a quick update:

We called the school and asked about the necessary steps so we can view her entire school records. They said she has access to her academic record by logging on the school portal. Asked them about the disciplinary record and I was directed to the Dean's Office after telling us that there will not be anything on the disciplinary records without my girlfriend having had any issues/contact with the Dean which she obviously has never had. We also asked them about notes/remarks being put in her records by professors and we were told that professors can't do anything secretly, without my girlfriend's knowledge.
Given that their conversation was informal through informal means, this remains then in my view an informal decision between professor and student.

Agh!

The only way anyone would find out is if they contact the professor, and the professor likely isn't able to disclose this information without her consent. If the D is an adverse action and she answers no to the have you..., she could be in for some what-what in the butt. If its not then she's home free. I'd ask a lawyer but considering reasonable minds can debate on if it's disciplinary, she's prob ok.

[lot49]

I think it does boil down to whether the D constitutes a disciplinary action or not. I could see arguments either way, honestly.

From her point of view, it seems like the school can't just say she plagiarized without giving her a trial. Even in private universities, I think there are certain due process rights? It seems bullshitty that the professor could unilaterally find her guilty, even if she never replied? I would consider reaching out to the school to see what is going on, and perhaps try to get a hearing now. Assuming she doesn't get expelled/suspended, there isn't high risk in doing this. Even though grading is subjective and a prof could give her a D because they thought the font was ugly, everything changes if a D is considered an adverse action. In this instance, she's essentially being sentenced with no chance to be heard.

Lol. You don't get a trial if the professor fails you on one assignment because the assignment's plagiarized. That's the professor's assessment of the quality of the assignment; professorial discretion over grades is pretty absolute. A plagiarized assignment doesn't meet the course requirements and gets an F. This is probably also going to be the case if the student failed the course. If you're talking suspension or expulsion or even some kind of reprimand in your academic record, sure, you get a hearing. But you don't have a due process right to a particular grade.

(Failing a student on an assignment because the assignment is plagiarized is not an adverse action. First, that's employment, not education. Second, even if you can import "adverse action," that would be failing a student on an assignment because they were black, or gay, or Catholic, and not for a reason related to the content of their work.)

So what would you suggest then?
Report it or not?

That is a very unfortunate situation. I think the fact that your girlfriend has such a strong story (according to what you've said) should make admissions very sympathetic. So I don't think it would cause as much damage as you might think. That said though, I find it really hard to justify calling this "disciplinary action." I was in a similar boat when applying to undergrad where a suspension never ended up on my record, but I decided to disclose it anyway. But that was some pretty straightforward disciplinary action while this just doesn't seem "official" in any capacity.

I will agree with everyone else though and say that you absolutely should consult legal counsel to be on the safe side. I am really sorry that she has to go through that. I understand how much it sucks to make a mistake and see it wreck a lot of your plans. Best of luck to her.

[SPerez]

Disclose. Disclose. Disclose. The consequences risked by trying to 0L-lawyer your way to justifying not disclosing are much higher than the consequences of disclosing.

You already did the first thing I was going to suggest, which is calling the school to ask for a copy of your student file. Like the other poster said, professors do all sorts of things without following procedure. Who knows what could have been in there. I've had students that DID meet with a dean, have to write an essay, do community service, etc. and there still wasn't anything in their files because the dean decided to just put the stuff in a drawer. I'm sure they feel like they're doing the student a solid by keeping small stuff from hurting them in the future, but it puts people in this specific situation in a sort of difficult position.

If the question reads, " At any college or university, have you ever been suspended, expelled, or required to withdraw, or been the subject of any other disciplinary action or proceedings for misconduct or deficient scholarship, or are there any charges pending against you?", then what it DOESN'T say is "Is there a record of...". I.e. you don't get to not disclose just because there's no record anywhere. It happened and your GF knows it happened. Also, while I'm not a practicing attorney, a question in an application is not a statute where the phrases are terms of art with meanings crafted through case law. If you would have gotten an A and got a D because the prof thinks you plagiarized, I would consider that disciplinary action. (Also, WTH is "deficient scholarship"?)

As others have said, just have her submit an addendum that explains the situation. With her grades and LSAT, I'd think she would want to explain that semester and the D (the only one on her transcript, I assume) anyway. It sounds like a sympathetic situation.

For the poster that asked how the Bar might find out about something like this...Many (maybe all, I don't know for sure) state bars send out forms to schools asking them to answer questions about the student. One of those questions is often something like "Is there any reason you would not recommend this applicant for the admission to practice law" or "Are there any other issues you believe may be relevant". I doubt a school official would, responding in their official capacity, would put something down that wasn't documented somewhere, but nevertheless, the questions are there...

I'm more interested in the "T14 or Bust" thinking. It's not like 15-50 are the bottom of the barrel with 20% employment rates. If she's willing to go to Cornell or Georgetown, but not willing to go to UCLA/UT/Vandy etc., I wonder if she really actually wants to be a lawyer.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law