Top Law Schools

Been looking into graduate programs of different fields. I know about the whole T14 phenomena in law school and how it affects hiring and employment chances at top firms. I'm wondering if this is somehow unique to law only or if other professions have a similar thing going on?

For example, do you have a "T14" of MBA programs, MD programs, Pharmacy programs, etc.?

Thanks.

carlsenvshikaru wrote:Been looking into graduate programs of different fields. I know about the whole T14 phenomena in law school and how it affects hiring and employment chances at top firms. I'm wondering if this is somehow unique to law only or if other professions have a similar thing going on?

For example, do you have a "T14" of MBA programs, MD programs, Pharmacy programs, etc.?

Thanks.

B schools have the "Magic 7." No idea about the others, though prestige is definitely still a thing with them.

The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

I thought it was more about salary/which jobs you place into, rather than just about placement numbers.

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

What does the Magic 7 get you? Is it the equivalent of a Yale JD?

So you're saying if you attend a T20 MBA program, then you'll have a 95% chance of landing a top level job? That's way better than law then.

sideroxylon wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

I thought it was more about salary/which jobs you place into, rather than just about placement numbers.

yea this seems credited. i dont think the business field is like the legal field where the salaries/placement are so bi modal. theres more of a spectrum and job openings out there

carlsenvshikaru wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

What does the Magic 7 get you? Is it the equivalent of a Yale JD?

So you're saying if you attend a T20 MBA program, then you'll have a 95% chance of landing a top level job? That's way better than law then.

Nobody is saying that. B school employment numbers are a lot less relevant than they are for law school.

Think of law school as giving you a blank slate: it doesn't matter what you did before because you weren't a lawyer. Everyone is starting from (basically) the same place, therefore it's really easy to see the relative value of different schools by comparing employment outcomes.

B school is entirely different. People have experience going in, and *likely* will go back to the industry they came from, or at least will go somewhere where their past experience matters. Much harder to parse employment numbers, because even if 95% have jobs going out, 95% probably had jobs going in. The added value for people is the network building and the improved career prospects.

Nothing like it exists for med schools. In fact, any LCME accredited medical school in the US is probably the equivalent of the T14, although of course some are more prestigious than others. Even the Caribbean and DO med schools have "job" (residency) placement rates well above most T1 law schools.

sideroxylon wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

I thought it was more about salary/which jobs you place into, rather than just about placement numbers.

Yeah, some sectors like hedge fund, private equity, and the tippy-top IBs (e.g. Goldman) will still require preftigious degrees.
But the M7 is dumb in the sense that it's an arbitrary designation. I heard somewhere that a former dean of Columbia's business school cooked it up to sneak his school into the same league has Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. MBA rankings aren't set in stone the way that the T14 is.

High End MD = T6
Low End MD = T14
DO = T20
Carrib MD = T1

I thought there was only 6 MBA schools that are comparable to the t-13?
Wharton
Stanford
Harvard
Booth (UofC)
Stern (NYU)
Kellog (NU)

^not ranked in order. If you can even place them in order since Wharton, SBS, and HBS are ranked 1 depending on the publication doing the ranking.

sesto elemento wrote:I thought there was only 6 MBA schools that are comparable to the t-13?
Wharton
Stanford
Harvard
Booth (UofC)
Stern (NYU)
Kellog (NU)

^not ranked in order. If you can even place them in order since Wharton, SBS, and HBS are ranked 1 depending on the publication doing the ranking.

Everyone is right that M7 is kind of arbitrary and silly, but still it's similar in quality to the T14. Each of the schools has the ability to place well in to pretty much any industry with the right background. Schools with lower ranks get shut out of certain prestige conscious industries.

You don't have the schools exactly right though, NYU is not M7 and MIT definitely is. I've heard some people use M7 to refer to HBS, SBS, Wharton, Booth, Kellogg, MIT and either Columbia (traditional) or Berkeley.

lol stern

bdubs wrote:
Everyone is right that M7 is kind of arbitrary and silly, but still it's similar in quality to the T14. Each of the schools has the ability to place well in to pretty much any industry with the right background. Schools with lower ranks get shut out of certain prestige conscious industries.

You don't have the schools exactly right though, NYU is not M7 and MIT definitely is. I've heard some people use M7 to refer to HBS, SBS, Wharton, Booth, Kellogg, MIT and either Columbia (traditional) or Berkeley.

I think only Harvard and Stanford have the ability to place well into any industry regardless of prior experience.

Wharton, Columbia, and Booth are finance powerhouses.

Kellogg, Sloan are known for good management consulting recruiting.

Below that recruiting becomes a little more dicey. Granted, my experience pretty much is just lurking on WSO so there's that.

eriedoctrine wrote:High End MD = T6
Low End MD = T14
DO = T20
Carrib MD = T1

i have friends in carrib med schools
what are the likely outcomes

carlsenvshikaru wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

What does the Magic 7 get you? Is it the equivalent of a Yale JD?

So you're saying if you attend a T20 MBA program, then you'll have a 95% chance of landing a top level job? That's way better than law then.

Depends on what you mean by top level but I would say career prospects fall off rapidly after Yale/duke. Coincidentally they are ranked around 13.

So please forgive my ignorance, since I've literally just begun researching this stuff.

So it seems people are comparing the M7 to the T14 in terms of ability to place into high-powered, prestigious, lucrative, and desirable positions (whatever those may be).

What about what happens with MBAs outside of the M7 in comparison with what happens to JDs outside of the T14? Do job prospects and degree value have a similar curve of depreciating value? Like how would the lowest rung of MBA grads do in the job market compared to grads from the lowest tier of law schools? And what about the middle ranked programs/grads in both types of degree programs?

Oh. And I get that US MDs are simply in a completely different situation with good job prospects.

dabigchina wrote:

carlsenvshikaru wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

What does the Magic 7 get you? Is it the equivalent of a Yale JD?

So you're saying if you attend a T20 MBA program, then you'll have a 95% chance of landing a top level job? That's way better than law then.

Depends on what you mean by top level but I would say career prospects fall off rapidly after Yale/duke. Coincidentally they are ranked around 13.

Yeah, I didn't specify what I meant by "top level," because I have no idea what a top level job in business would be. ...What would one be? Like being a bean counter at say a Fortune 500 company? If so, what would the pay be. I had this fuzzy idea that top level MBA grads would make more than T14 JDs in biglaw, but I really have no idea. Please feel free to fill me in, because I'm quite curious about this.

dabigchina wrote: I think only Harvard and Stanford have the ability to place well into any industry regardless of prior experience.

Wharton, Columbia, and Booth are finance powerhouses.

Kellogg, Sloan are known for good management consulting recruiting.

Below that recruiting becomes a little more dicey. Granted, my experience pretty much is just lurking on WSO so there's that.

No school has the ability to place well into any industry regardless of prior experience. If you don't have solid finance experience you won't get a job in a good PE fund. Other industries are similar, without good prior experience in the field you won't get consideration for the "best" jobs.

Other highly paid jobs accept pretty much anyone from a top school that performs well in interviews (consulting, investment banking). Others are willing to be flexible with the type of prior experience (F500 MBA level gigs). These jobs will set you up well to work most any type of functional role or industry that you want. They are all attainable from pretty much any of the M7.

Drop to the T10-20 MBA programs and it's a real uphill battle to get a consulting or banking gig. The F500s will consider people, but the sexier companies are all pulling mostly from M7 too (Google, Nike, Apple, Amazon, etc.) There are examples of people who do well at lower ranked schools but the range of outcomes grows wider between the top and bottom of the class, similar to law school.

carlsenvshikaru wrote: Like how would the lowest rung of MBA grads do in the job market compared to grads from the lowest tier of law schools? And what about the middle ranked programs/grads in both types of degree programs?

Lowest ranked anything nets you pretty bad career prospects. Lots of the worst b-school programs are designed for part-time students who think that they can advance from their dead end cubicle monkey job. For the most part it's a joke and the people are not better off with the degree.

A "middle ranked" program might get you a reasonable opportunity to move from a worker bee type position into a position with some lower-level management prospects. I think a lot of mediocre MBA programs help people move from jobs that pay 40-60k into jobs that pay 70-90k and have some advancement potential.

The median starting salary for top (m7) MBA programs is around $120k, but the average entering salary of students is probably $80-90k already. There is a lot of variation in those numbers too (a few 200-300k, a lot of 90-100k)

So adding on to what bdubbs contributed, the hierarchy of preftigiousness for post mba tend to go something like this

Elite Private equity, elite hedge fund
Elite ibd (Goldman, Morgan Stanley), MBB consulting
Lower tier management consulting(deloitte s&o, etc), lower tier ibd
Fortune 500 middle management

People can correct me if I'm wrong. mbas do a lot of circle jerking around which groups at which companies are legit.

Again, an elite MBA program is not really something you can just waltz into after crushing the GMAT like you can with law school and the lsat. You actually need to have the correct pedigree before you even start applying.

carlsenvshikaru wrote:So please forgive my ignorance, since I've literally just begun researching this stuff.

So it seems people are comparing the M7 to the T14 in terms of ability to place into high-powered, prestigious, lucrative, and desirable positions (whatever those may be).

What about what happens with MBAs outside of the M7 in comparison with what happens to JDs outside of the T14? Do job prospects and degree value have a similar curve of depreciating value? Like how would the lowest rung of MBA grads do in the job market compared to grads from the lowest tier of law schools? And what about the middle ranked programs/grads in both types of degree programs?

Oh. And I get that US MDs are simply in a completely different situation with good job prospects.

dabigchina wrote:

carlsenvshikaru wrote:

lacrossebrother wrote:The magic 7 is dumb though because there's still like 95% placement in the t15-20

What does the Magic 7 get you? Is it the equivalent of a Yale JD?

So you're saying if you attend a T20 MBA program, then you'll have a 95% chance of landing a top level job? That's way better than law then.

Depends on what you mean by top level but I would say career prospects fall off rapidly after Yale/duke. Coincidentally they are ranked around 13.

Yeah, I didn't specify what I meant by "top level," because I have no idea what a top level job in business would be. ...What would one be? Like being a bean counter at say a Fortune 500 company? If so, what would the pay be. I had this fuzzy idea that top level MBA grads would make more than T14 JDs in biglaw, but I really have no idea. Please feel free to fill me in, because I'm quite curious about this.

dabigchina wrote:So adding on to what bdubbs contributed, the hierarchy of preftigiousness for post mba tend to go something like this

Elite Private equity, elite hedge fund
Elite ibd (Goldman, Morgan Stanley), MBB consulting
Lower tier management consulting(deloitte s&o, etc), lower tier ibd
Fortune 500 middle management

There isn't such a thing as prestige across industry/function. You can try to compare MBB to GS & MS but there are a ton of people from consulting who wouldn't want to do banking and vice-versa. Think of them as litigation and corporate. It doesn't really work to say: Which is better Williams and Connolly or Davis Polk?

It's true that consulting and finance are probably the two most lucrative fields from an MBA, particularly for those without prior experience. But it's not really right to say that they are the most prestigious, or that they are better than a marketing brand manager at P&G or a product manager at Google. People don't all want the same jobs at M7 schools.

bdubs wrote:

dabigchina wrote:So adding on to what bdubbs contributed, the hierarchy of preftigiousness for post mba tend to go something like this

Elite Private equity, elite hedge fund
Elite ibd (Goldman, Morgan Stanley), MBB consulting
Lower tier management consulting(deloitte s&o, etc), lower tier ibd
Fortune 500 middle management

There isn't such a thing as prestige across industry/function. You can try to compare MBB to GS & MS but there are a ton of people from consulting who wouldn't want to do banking and vice-versa. Think of them as litigation and corporate. It doesn't really work to say: Which is better Williams and Connolly or Davis Polk?

It's true that consulting and finance are probably the two most lucrative fields from an MBA, particularly for those without prior experience. But it's not really right to say that they are the most prestigious, or that they are better than a marketing brand manager at P&G or a product manager at Google. People don't all want the same jobs at M7 schools.

This is definitely correct. It's not like law school, where 85% of the class is going after big law. Maybe 20% of a class goes after banking, maybe 30% consulting. From there, its how well the school places and how well you interview to get those kind of jobs. Large Cap PE funds will recruit at the top business schools, but they usually look for people with prior PE experience or top ranked banking experience, so the pool that are even qualified is very low. I know people that went to Wharton because they were sick of consulting and wanted in house strategy roles at F500, which is what they got. It isn't "Less Prestigious," its just what they want.

Also, HFs rarely if ever hire from business schools, and if they do, its usually Columbia (Value Investing Program is top), Harvard, Wharton or Chicago. VCs hit up Stanford a lot. But very, very few people are even going to get looked at for those. Most people good enough for HFs don't need business school to get there.

sesto elemento wrote:I thought there was only 6 MBA schools that are comparable to the t-13?
Wharton
Stanford
Harvard
Booth (UofC)
Stern (NYU)
Kellog (NU)

^not ranked in order. If you can even place them in order since Wharton, SBS, and HBS are ranked 1 depending on the publication doing the ranking.

Nope. M7, the seven best law schools nationwide, are HBS, SBS, CBS, Wharton, MIT Sloan, Booth, and Kellogg (not in that order). This is pretty universally acknowledged. No one cares about commercial rankings for business schools. Its M7, other respectable programs (such as Berkeley or NYU Stern), and useless programs that may as well close.

bdubs wrote:

dabigchina wrote:So adding on to what bdubbs contributed, the hierarchy of preftigiousness for post mba tend to go something like this

Elite Private equity, elite hedge fund
Elite ibd (Goldman, Morgan Stanley), MBB consulting
Lower tier management consulting(deloitte s&o, etc), lower tier ibd
Fortune 500 middle management

There isn't such a thing as prestige across industry/function. You can try to compare MBB to GS & MS but there are a ton of people from consulting who wouldn't want to do banking and vice-versa. Think of them as litigation and corporate. It doesn't really work to say: Which is better Williams and Connolly or Davis Polk?

It's true that consulting and finance are probably the two most lucrative fields from an MBA, particularly for those without prior experience. But it's not really right to say that they are the most prestigious, or that they are better than a marketing brand manager at P&G or a product manager at Google. People don't all want the same jobs at M7 schools.

I think you are missing the point.

My list was not meant to be prescriptive at all. Everybody has different goals. Op wasn't sure what kinds of jobs people gun for out of MBA and for the vast majority it is reasonably accurate.

I agree it's hard comparing preftige across industries. That is why I am not saying consulting is better than banking and or vice versa. But you can't argue that most people would not take an offer at Goldman TMT over like citi or UBS. You would also be crazy to take PwC over bcg. Whether you can get those jobs depends on what school you go to and prior work experience.

Also, my understanding is in house positions out of MBA pay lower and tend to have slower career progression outside of unicorns like google. My impression was the standard progression was you slave away for a few years at somewhere like MBB and then let them place you when you finally burn out.

Either way op should make hi way to Wall Street oasis. There is probably a million threads around this topic with contributors who have actually gone through it all

dabigchina wrote: Either way op should make hi way to Wall Street oasis. There is probably a million threads around this topic with contributors who have actually gone through it all

Thanks for the recommendation. I've just begun the research process, so I'll take a look over there.

And thanks for people's perspectives on my question!