Sealed juvenile records considered for law school/bar app Forum

[James H.]

Hey guys,

I just discovered a very sobering piece of information. I was completely oblivious to the fact that when applying to law school as well as the bar, they ask about sealed juvenile records.

I will try to avoid a sob story, but the pertinent information regarding my situation is as follows:
My stepfather committed suicide and my mom got sick and couldn't really parent me the way a mother should. We lived in what most would call the ghetto and I turned to that lifestyle because I felt alone and it gave me a false sense of belonging. I was 14 at the time and was completely oblivious as to the ramifications of my actions. I was expelled from 3 high schools before finally dropping out. Ultimately, I spent almost half of my teenage years in jail or on house arrest. By 16, I had been charged with 3 felonies and a handful of misdemeanors.

In the end, I turned my life around. I got me GED and started attending community college before transferring to a university where I am on track to graduate cum laude in electrical and computer engineering. I left the state and worked very hard to become a productive member of society. Last year all of my juvenile records were sealed. Aside for a very minor incident, I haven't been in any form of trouble for the last 7 years. Since going to college, obtaining a law degree has been my ultimate goal, and now I feel that practicing law won't happen.

I will disclose any and all information that is asked of me, but my question is how can they ask this? When sealing my record, I was told that it would be unlawful for any employer/agency to judge/deny me based upon my sealed record. How will they handle this? My record is very nasty and violent, but I have also served my time and by most accounts, I am a rehabilitated citizen. I accepted responsibility for my actions and am now trying to move on, but it would seem that there isn't really any protection from the bad decisions I made as a teen.

I know some states (like Virginia) don't require you to disclose information regarding sealed records for the bar, but it would appear that the major markets do. If you have any insight as to how to approach this issue or who I could talk to, please let me know. I feel that my dreams are being crushed. I know that even with my grades, the likelihood of me getting into a T14 university has gone to zero.

Is anyone aware of markets that don't require full disclosure of sealed juvenile records? Also, universities in Massachusetts are not allowed to ask about sealed records, are you aware of any other states that do the same?

Thank you,

James H.

[TigerDude]

I think you will need a C&F lawyer to answer this in a meaningful way, in the states you are interested in.

[James H.]

I think you will need a C&F lawyer to answer this in a meaningful way, in the states you are interested in.

I think you are right. It is very frustrating to dedicate the time and energy I have committed to becoming an attorney, only to find that I may not be able to. I only have myself to blame.

How would you go about this? Should I contact the lawyers prior to applying to law school? I don't want to be in my second or third year only to find that I really can't practice law.

[Clyde Frog]

I don't think they're going to get all over you for a juvenile record, especially since you turned your life around and have been clean for quite some time.

[Clyde Frog]

Also, remember that the mind of a juvenile is completely different from an adult. Hence why juveniles can't get the death penalty.

[James H.]

Hey guys, thanks for the support. I wanted to give you guys an update. (Chicago and Boston are the two primary markets I would really like to work in).

I contacted the Massachusetts Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers organization, they called me back early this morning, but I was still sleeping (I don't think they realized there was a time difference, I'm on the west coast). I will report back when I here from them.

I contacted a C & F attorney out of Chicago. The attorney I spoke with said that, at least in Illinois, I should disclose everything, even if it doesn't explicitly ask. If I apply to the bar and they think I didn't give full disclosure on my school application, this will most likely get me disqualified faster than my record would. They also said that it is still possible for me to be admitted, though I will have to show a strong case for rehabilitation.

Outlook: I think I am going to work as an engineer for a few years before applying. I am going to try to put as much time and experience between my past with the hopes that it makes me more credible. I also think my life story will be the topic of my personal statement. I think that my story would be powerful enough to at least give me a shot at some of the top schools.

Ultimately, I am glad that I chose engineering for my undergrad versus going pre-law, political science, English, etc. As my record is sealed, I can still get a job in industry and sufficiently provide for my family should I not get accepted to law school.

I don't think they're going to get all over you for a juvenile record, especially since you turned your life around and have been clean for quite some time.

This is the hope! Unfortunately, I was a very different person as a young teenager. I try to avoid portraying the victim as everybody experiences hurdles in life, but at the same time, I didn't have the life experience to realize there was a better way to live. I strongly believe that I have had those experiences now and hopefully my academic accomplishments as well as my proven work ethic will help sway the minds of those judging me.

Thanks again for the help and advice!

[sheilmolson]

SPAM

[n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t]

Also, remember that the mind of a juvenile is completely different from an adult. Hence why juveniles can't get the death penalty.

Not anymore, anyway. Until very recently, 17 year olds could get life without parole (and there are many in prisons with that sentence currently). Let's not pretend like the US justice system is anything but horrendous.

OP: I wish you the best of luck. I hope that something so far in your past doesn't haunt you forever.

[Clyde Frog]

Also, remember that the mind of a juvenile is completely different from an adult. Hence why juveniles can't get the death penalty.

Not anymore, anyway. Until very recently, 17 year olds could get life without parole (and there are many in prisons with that sentence currently). Let's not pretend like the US justice system is anything but horrendous.

OP: I wish you the best of luck. I hope that something so far in your past doesn't haunt you forever.

I agree, but he did mention he was a young teenager, which would make me think that it would not be quite as serious as a 17 year old. The crime also was not bad enough that OP was charged as an adult. Getting life without parole would count on your adult record.

The goal of a juvenile court is different than that of an adult court in that the goal of juvenile courts is rehabilitation rather than punishment. Some states also do not have the standard guilty and not guilty pleas for juvenile, as it is called delinquent or not delinquent, so that it is known that they are separated from a regular criminal.

[James H.]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but for anybody that is interested, I wanted to give you an update.

Under the recommendation of a member of this forum, I have contacted over 20 bar associations. I sent them a two page letter expressing my interest in one day working within their jurisdiction as well a brief summary of my situation. My hope is that I will get responses that will allow me to plan for my future. Also, any positive responses will be added to my ls applications at the appropriate time.

As soon as I start to receive letters, I will let you guys know.

The crime also was not bad enough that OP was charged as an adult.

For those interested, all three were originally B-class felony robberies that were reduced to C-class felony thefts and misdemeanor assaults.

I wish you the best of luck. I hope that something so far in your past doesn't haunt you forever.

Thank you! Unfortunately, hind-sight is 20-20. I do take full responsibility for my actions and have accepted every consequence the state deemed necessary (I wasted half of my teen-age years in jail or on house arrest). I understand that practicing law is a privilege, not a right, but I sincerely hope I didn't deprive myself at such a young age.

It is out of my hands now. I have worked very hard to become a productive member of society and have done all the things necessary to secure a future for myself and my family. It is now someone else's responsibility to decide if who I am now makes up for the person I used to be. I can only pray that I offered a compelling argument.

Thanks for the support TLS, I will keep you guys posted.

[SemperLegal]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Keep in mind that people have been convicted of murder and allowed to be a lawyer. Its not time to give up hope, yet.

My totally-uneducated and wholly-emotional bet would be that no C&F lawyer is going to give you a square answer (because lawyers are the worst), but ultimately you will admitted to both law school and the bar (but you are going to have a very strange application cycle for both).

There is nothing that Americans, both on the left and the right, love more than a good story of salvation. We glorify it in our movies, our music, and in our politics. One and one, people don't want to hire ex-cons, but they don't want to stand in the way of letting the move on (especially if its on someone elses dime).

[whut]

Two things to remember:

1. Don't ask don't tell
(keep it simple, don't disclose what they don't ask for. If they wanted to know, they would ask)

2. If they ask, don't lie.


Its that easy. Don't over think it or you will just create problems where there shouldn't be one.
Character and Fitness looks this all over when you graduate. A JD without a license is about as useful as a $100K mortgage on a camper with no roof.

[whut]

Also, remember that the mind of a juvenile is completely different from an adult. Hence why juveniles can't get the death penalty.

I can all but assure you if you tell them that at 12 you murdered and ate the neighbors cat that you have previously fornicated with and then burnt the house down with the owners trapped in the closet, that they would still find a reason to not let you attend.
(I watched dateline a few times, they have some messed up stuff happen in the world, and yes "children" sometimes are the ones doing it)

But short of that extreme I doubt they'd care if you have an MIP or something I agree.


OP what did you actually do and what age were you. If you let us know that may help too.

[James H.]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you think that I should make this the focus of my personal statement? I believe that this is going to be my limiting factor when applying to law schools and I feel like not discussing it in some details will limit my chances, what do you all think? I think my ec's are strong and getting stronger (collegiate sports player, executive position within student government, volunteer once a week with the IEEE, at my previous job I held a management position for 4 years and recently started working for a small engineering firm, I am currently trying to volunteer with my local fire department)... I also bow hunt and fish and like long walks in the park.

Back on the subject, as Semper was saying, Americans love a good story of salvation. I was a teenage felon, high school that had no discipline or guidance, I am now an engineering student in the top 5-10% of my university. I will be adding a business minor to help pad my gpa a bit, I am hoping to reach the 3.7 range to get fully lock in the >50% for the schools I am interested in.

There is nothing that Americans, both on the left and the right, love more than a good story of salvation.

I would have to agree. When I started the letters to the bar, I really had never written about my life in detail like that. It is strange that growing up, I never realized how damaged I was from physical and mental abuse and how much of a factor that played in the choices that I made. I started to find my own story inspiring, I hope that's a good thing.

(but you are going to have a very strange application cycle for both)

It will definitely be strange. The bar requires court documents regarding crimes so I will have to unseal my records to gain access. Sounds like a really fun time!

OP what did you actually do and what age were you. If you let us know that may help too.

Here's the list:
Age 12: Minor in possession of alcohol and vandalism: I blacked out and proceeded to beat a car up with a baseball bat. Had to go to drug and alcohol classes. Result: Expunged Record

Age 14: Robbery 2: I took somebody's ipod and threatened to hit them. Result: Charges reduced to theft 1 and assault 4, spent 1 month in jail and 4 months on house arrest. Expelled from school. Sealed record.

Age 15: Robbery 2: I took someone's backpack after a fist fight. Result: Charges reduced to theft 1 and assault 4, spent 4 months in jail and 11 months on house arrest. Expelled from school. Sealed record.

Age 16: Misdemeanor dangerous weapons penalty. I was caught with brass knuckles. Results: Charges dismissed due to illegal search without probable cause. Sealed arrest record.

Age 16: Assault 2. My friend's dad was drunk and beating him with a metal rod. I intervened by assaulting the dad. I called the police, they arrested me. Results: Charges dismissed. Spent 6 months in jail. Sealed arrest record.

Age 17: Robbery 2/Intimidating a witness/Suspicion of gang activity. I had gotten into a fight with a gang member. Afterwards, the people I was with wanted to rob him, I stated I wanted nothing to do with it (in less gracious terms) and returned to class. They robbed him, I was arrested in class. Results: Charges reduced to theft 2. Spent 7 months in jail. Expelled from school. Sealed record.

Age 18: Minor in possession of alcohol/assault 4. Somebody spat in my face so I hit him. After an empty bottle of whisky was found in my pocket, I was arrested. Result: Charges reduced to assault 4. Spent 1 week in jail. Sealed record.

For anyone else interested, I have also had 2 speeding tickets and 1 at fault car accident! I digress. I know how bad this looks, and that is what concerns me.

[James H.]

Hey everyone, I have a quick update on the letters that I had sent out. I received quite a few responses, definitely too many to list individually, but here is a brief summary:

As I expected, most replies stated that they couldn't not give me any specific advice or comments, the could offer some information regarding the process. In most states, I will be eligible to sit for the exam while C & F is ongoing (if it isn't settled quickly). This is considered a very good sign. As I wasn't convicted of felonies as an adult (but adjudicated as a juvenile), it seems that it is not as big of a deal as I thought.

Most states have a 5 year period since the crime occurred as well as a stipulation stating all civil rights must be returned. I did lose the right to own or possess a firearm, but should be getting it back early next year. They also pointed out that a considerable amount of time has passed and considering I wont be applying for a few years, I just need to continue doing what I feel is best to prove I am a reformed citizen.

I can honestly say that it was a relief! Anyway, I think this will be the last update on this thread unless anyone has questions. Thanks for the support and information TLS!

[srcharls]

Did you end up attending LS after all? I have quite the decorated juvenile history myself.. so much in fact I can't remember what I was actually charged with. I have a similar salvation story in turning my life around after graduating HS and taking my first LSAT in October