Will anyone crack the top 14? Forum

[2014]

The schools right below the T14 have shown pervasive mediocrity and inability to crack the ELITE group (if anyone brings up Texas' one year mysterious T14 showing you are dumb) so I have to think that the next school to rise to ELITE status must be one that is a dark horse.

The answer is all too obvious as it was alluded to in the OP, that school is Arizona State. I have it on good authority that the last two years of marginal ranking declines was a calculated decision made by the ASU administration to tank in order to improve it's draft position going forward. It's probably too complicated for most to grasp, but mark my words that in 4-5 years, ASU will have acquired a critical mass of prestigious prospects that it will compete for T14 championships.

[yossarian]

The schools right below the T14 have shown pervasive mediocrity and inability to crack the ELITE group (if anyone brings up Texas' one year mysterious T14 showing you are dumb) so I have to think that the next school to rise to ELITE status must be one that is a dark horse.

The answer is all too obvious as it was alluded to in the OP, that school is Arizona State. I have it on good authority that the last two years of marginal ranking declines was a calculated decision made by the ASU administration to tank in order to improve it's draft position going forward. It's probably too complicated for most to grasp, but mark my words that in 4-5 years, ASU will have acquired a critical mass of prestigious prospects that it will compete for T14 championships.

David Stern doesn't consider it cheating.

[whereskyle]

Basically, School X would have had to be prestigious before the release of the initial rankings 30 years ago to have hopped onto the "reputation train" running in circles every year. People should forget that "change" can happen in this country. That was just a 6th grade social studies puppet show.

[Dafaq]

I was disappointed UT wasn’t again ranked in the T14 especially since ATL ranked UT as a T14. Offers were plentiful this year plus Texas is a nation onto itself with a pop of +26 million including two cities in the top 6. The question of whether UT will be ranked as a T14 is mostly about overtaking or tying Georgetown (and/or possibly Cornell). I just do not view that outcome as a long term impossibility.

[patogordo]

I was disappointed UT wasn’t again ranked in the T14 especially since ATL ranked UT as a T14. Offers were plentiful this year plus Texas is a nation onto itself with a pop of +26 million including two cities in the top 6. The question of whether UT will be ranked as a T14 is mostly about overtaking or tying Georgetown (and/or possibly Cornell). I just do not view that outcome as a long term impossibility.

if they would secede already UT could be #1 in the Texas News & World Report rankings.

[rayiner]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number. The T14 is just the Ivy league + the top 1 or 2 schools in key geographic regions. If Texas continues to grow economically, and that creates enough legal jobs to place as much of the class as say NU does in Chicago or Cornell does in New York (which isn't true right now), then there will be a T15.

[d cooper]

Regarding the earlier discussion about USNWR and its relationship to employment, in a recent thread Mike Spivey maintained that the rankings definitely have an impact:

Here is another way of looking at it.

Let's say UVA went from being ranked 7th to 101 on Tuesday, because Morse added a category "gummy bears sold in student lounge per volume of law school dean's cerebrum." I would all but promise that some firms would stop recruiting at UVA the next OCI swing because the Cravath's of the world want to say to their clients, "we only hire from top 10 schools."

I'll give one of many examples. I met with the CIA to hire students at my school. The first thing the woman from the CIA (with the made up last name) said to me was "since 9/11 we have only recruited at top 10 schools" -- and then she, with absolute precision, ranted off those schools.

I do not mean to overemphasize rankings. They are flawed, way overrated, etc. But people are highly drawn to them, including generally rational-minded adults. So they have a considerable impact on behavior, including (for some groups) employment behavior.

[pedestrian]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number. The T14 is just the Ivy league + the top 1 or 2 schools in key geographic regions. If Texas continues to grow economically, and that creates enough legal jobs to place as much of the class as say NU does in Chicago or Cornell does in New York (which isn't true right now), then there will be a T15.

I thought that the idea was that the T14 are national in reach. I think that is less true of Cornell and NU but still somewhat true. If we are adding top schools in important regions, arguably UT and UCLA are already there. LA is bigger than Chicago and Texas is an important and growing economic region.

Maybe what we actually have now is more of a T10 and the lower T14 have fallen into a second, "regionally strong + some national reach" tier.

[Mal Reynolds]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number. The T14 is just the Ivy league + the top 1 or 2 schools in key geographic regions. If Texas continues to grow economically, and that creates enough legal jobs to place as much of the class as say NU does in Chicago or Cornell does in New York (which isn't true right now), then there will be a T15.

I thought that the idea was that the T14 are national in reach. I think that is less true of Cornell and NU but still somewhat true. If we are adding top schools in important regions, arguably UT and UCLA are already there. LA is bigger than Chicago and Texas is an important and growing economic region.

Maybe what we actually have now is more of a T10 and the lower T14 have fallen into a second, "regionally strong + some national reach" tier.

Omg shut up.

[patogordo]

exhaustive list of things changed:

1. EVERYTHING

[d cooper]

Maybe what we actually have now is more of a T10 and the lower T14 have fallen into a second, "regionally strong + some national reach" tier.

This doesn't really work. In many cases the employment outcomes are nearly identical (see Cornell vs. Berkeley, or Northwestern vs. Michigan).

[NYC-WVU]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number. The T14 is just the Ivy league + the top 1 or 2 schools in key geographic regions. If Texas continues to grow economically, and that creates enough legal jobs to place as much of the class as say NU does in Chicago or Cornell does in New York (which isn't true right now), then there will be a T15.

I agree that 14 is no magic number. But it certainly has some prestige to it, and as an applicant I can tell you it has persuasive power. At the beginning of the process, I definitely thought to myself, should I really invest the time and money to go to one of the schools outside of this elite group, considering that I already have a stable and relatively lucrative career. Assuming, for sake of argument, that Texas had swapped places with Georgetown a few years back, I would never have even considered there to be a line in the sand for me to contemplate. If there was no line, I probably would have viewed Texas and UCLA more favorably (and I certainly never would have considered going to Ithaca).
I disagree with your characterization of the T14:
Only two of the five Ivy schools are not in major legal markets (New Haven and Ithaca); and
Two or three of the non-Ivy schools are not in major legal markets (Durham, Ann Arbor and Charlottesville).
So I think it's simply prestigious old schools, regardless of location or affiliation.

[pedestrian]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number. The T14 is just the Ivy league + the top 1 or 2 schools in key geographic regions. If Texas continues to grow economically, and that creates enough legal jobs to place as much of the class as say NU does in Chicago or Cornell does in New York (which isn't true right now), then there will be a T15.

I thought that the idea was that the T14 are national in reach. I think that is less true of Cornell and NU but still somewhat true. If we are adding top schools in important regions, arguably UT and UCLA are already there. LA is bigger than Chicago and Texas is an important and growing economic region.

Maybe what we actually have now is more of a T10 and the lower T14 have fallen into a second, "regionally strong + some national reach" tier.

Omg shut up.

Sorry, dude. Wish I could be cool like you.

[Mal Reynolds]

I wouldn't say I'm super cool. I would say I'm probably on the next tier level of coolness. Cool enough to hang out with the cool kids, but not embarrassed about liking sci fi movies. It's difficult though when someone from a third tier of coolness tries to talk to me when I'm talking to people two tiers above him in coolness. That's when things get sticky.

[Big Dog]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number.

Actually it is a magic number of sorts. The T14 consists of 14 schools because only those 14 schools have been ranked in the top 10 at lease once in the history of USNews' rankings; even GULC made it to T10. Thus, UT or UCLA or Vandy would have to jump into the top 10 to make a dent in the T14, which of course, would then become the T15.

[rad lulz]

,

[NYC-WVU]

All of this talk about whether UT should be in the T14 is stupid. There aren't 14 schools in the T14 because 14 is a magic number.

Actually it is a magic number of sorts. The T14 consists of 14 schools because only those 14 schools have been ranked in the top 10 at lease once in the history of USNews' rankings; even GULC made it to T10. Thus, UT or UCLA or Vandy would have to jump into the top 10 to make a dent in the T14, which of course, would then become the T15.

No. There is a t14 because there happen to be 14 elite schools that are a cut above the rest. The USNWR reflects this. It did not create this.

But is it perpetuating it?

[NYC-WVU]

Still nobody with a serious guess about who might rise or fall in the rankings over the next 10 years? Including outside the top schools that are in a holding pattern?

I'll guess that SMU will rise over the next ten years.

[patogordo]

Still nobody with a serious guess about who might rise or fall in the rankings over the next 10 years? Including outside the top schools that are in a holding pattern?

I'll guess that SMU will rise over the next ten years.

the only things rising over the next ten years are oceans.

[rad lulz]

,

[d cooper]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

[patogordo]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predicative sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

one anecdote about some CIA chick's spergy outburst and Spivey's unfounded assertion about "the Cravaths of the world" does not really mean anything

[burtmacklin]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

[patogordo]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

Cravath does OCI at Cardozo.

[burtmacklin]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

Cravath does OCI at Cardozo.

Haha well that clears that up, I thought it was a bit much to say that they only took from the top 10