Top Law Schools

Hi guys,

So my school has this policy which seems to suggest grade appeals are only doable if it's a procedural or clerical error. I am planning on going to the school to talk about this grade I got in my seminar class. It's not an issue of how well I did on the paper because I did well on the final paper. It's more about how the class ended up being graded. The class isn't curved and it's graded restrictly on a point system.

I just wanted some opinions on whether or not you guys think this can be appealed. So the syllabus mentions the grades at 75% based on the final paper and 25% for participation. I got a 88 on the final paper and received a B- in the class. I had myself documented as two absences, I emailed the Professor telling her I only had two absences and asking how that would affect my grade. She mentioned that one absence would not count towards my grade, and that the other absence would be proportionally distributed and therefore affect me very little. It turns out each absence dropped me one grade.

She ended up having 4 absences as the maximum amount that would affect our grade, each absence constituting 5% (this hardly seems proportional to me), any absences after 4 would not matter. The presentation only constituted for 5% (and this took weeks to prepare). I got full points for the presentation and a B+ on the paper but ended up with a B- because I had two absences counted against me.

The professor documented me with three absences, which I argued I only had two. She even gave everyone a opportunity after class to check the attendance sheet for the year and to make changes if there was mistakes, I did not look at the sheet and do that because I didn't think it was important nor was I missing more than 2 classes. It seems that means attendance was almost based on a honor system of what we say it is. I emailed her in a email afterwards just to tell her I had two absences and confirm how important it was. She told me it wasn't very important.

So I find out that apparently absences are huge and count a lot, and I dropped two grades because of the three absences I had (one absence is a freebie). I worked really hard in this class, I emailed the Professor about each absence (the two I had claimed to have, not the three) and did make up work for them. It just seems incredibly unfair that I would end up having two absences completely mess up my ranking. Do you think this matter can be appealed?

I basically want to argue I only had two absences, and since she allowed people to make changes to the attendance sheet I should be able to say I had 2 instead of three, because had I looked at the sheet I would make the change, granted it was my mistake in not doing so but it hardly seems fair that I should lose an entire grade because of it. Counting only 4 absences to make up the entire 20% hardly seems proportional which in my email to her she confirmed that attendance would be proportionally taken (total attendance is 13 classes). Not to mention people who would come in an hour late got to sign the sheet; it just seems so unfair.

Please give some reasonable insight on how I should approach this. I already talked to the Professor and she won't change the grade. I plan on taking this matter up with the Academic dean. This negatively affects my chances at getting a good clerkship because it drops me from being in the top 5% to the top 10%

So she gave you the opportunity to correct the absence record and you did not do so, but now that grades are in you want to appeal something she gave you the opportunity to correct?

Good luck with that

Yeah, I guess I don't get it. You walk in with the sent date of the emails so you know the dates. If you've really only missed two, you defend it to the death and immediately correct the record when given the chance. That should have been the end of it.

Tough spot, but it seems you let it get to this point. Even if absences were 0.5% of the total grade, if I saw mine were wrong I correct the record (if the wrong number was more than the actual number...less I might let slide).

I just have to throw this out: presumably the 25% for participation required more than just showing up. Is there are possibility that the grade reductions were for your performance rather than merely your absences?

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I just have to throw this out: presumably the 25% for participation required more than just showing up. Is there are possibility that the grade reductions were for your performance rather than merely your absences?

I was told pretty much why I got the B-, for having the two absences. She said she deducted 5% from my grade for each absence, I had a 91 which turned into a 81.

Specialhawk wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I just have to throw this out: presumably the 25% for participation required more than just showing up. Is there are possibility that the grade reductions were for your performance rather than merely your absences?

I was told pretty much why I got the B-, for having the two absences. She said she deducted 5% from my grade for each absence, I had a 91 which turned into a 81.

Okay. Just wanted to check. Honestly, I suspect an appeal wouldn't get anywhere, because while I agree that 5% for each absence is a little much, presumably the prof applied the same requirement to everyone in the course, and it's pretty much up to the professor's discretion how they want to distribute the points for the required work. And as people have pointed out, you had the opportunity to check how many absences she had you down for. If you can absolutely document that one of the absences is wrong, you could try that. But I don't think you'll get anywhere challenging the prof's decision to grade in a certain way.

guano wrote:So she gave you the opportunity to correct the absence record and you did not do so, but now that grades are in you want to appeal something she gave you the opportunity to correct?

Good luck with that

It's true I was given the opportunity in class to look at the attendance record and correct it; I didn't do it because there was a small line after class and I had to do something (if memory serves me correctly), however, I was paranoid about how many absences I had (I never did check the record), the sign in sheet often gets passed around messily around the class and most of the time I have go up after class to sign in because I never got the sign in sheet, and I did send her a email telling her I had two absences (rather recklessly of me, I suppose asserting I had two absences in a email rather than going up and marking the record is completely different), I did ask her in the email how much two absences would count against me, and the way I was replied to, lead me to reasonably believe that each absence would affect me very little. I'm just very angry over the fact that each absence ended up marking me down one entire grade.

Specialhawk wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I just have to throw this out: presumably the 25% for participation required more than just showing up. Is there are possibility that the grade reductions were for your performance rather than merely your absences?

I was told pretty much why I got the B-, for having the two absences. She said she deducted 5% from my grade for each absence, I had a 91 which turned into a 81.

Just to be clear, 5% for every absence as soon as you've missed 2 (meaning the first one counts if you've missed 2 or more)? Or, first one's free and 2, 3, 4, >5 = 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% gone?

I'm guessing the latter based on you're explanation of 3 vs. 2 absences previously.

craigsan18 wrote:

Specialhawk wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I just have to throw this out: presumably the 25% for participation required more than just showing up. Is there are possibility that the grade reductions were for your performance rather than merely your absences?

I was told pretty much why I got the B-, for having the two absences. She said she deducted 5% from my grade for each absence, I had a 91 which turned into a 81.

Just to be clear, 5% for every absence as soon as you've missed 2 (meaning the first one counts if you've missed 2 or more)? Or, first one's free and 2, 3, 4, >5 = 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% gone?

I'm guessing the latter based on you're explanation of 3 vs. 2 absences previously.

The first one is free, and subsequently each absence is a 5% mark down up to with a maximum deduction of 20%. It's the only class where I had absences count for this much. If I was aware that each absence would mark me down one grade after the first, I would never miss a day of class even if I was coughing up my lungs...

guano wrote:So she gave you the opportunity to correct the absence record and you did not do so, but now that grades are in you want to appeal something she gave you the opportunity to correct?

Good luck with that

The truth is that he should have checked it, but that doesn't excuse her from getting it correctly the first time. It was her error. The fact that he did not check, even though he should have does not automatically excuse her of her mistake.

Not to mention is takes her 5-10 minutes to change the grade. Seriosly, you have to be a misrobale human being to do that to someone.

Appeal the grade.

Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

guano wrote:Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

Well most Professor I have that count attendance as part of the grade, which most do not, usually only has it affect 10% of the overall grade at most, assuming you miss all the classes but scored a perfect on the exam you can walk away with a A-. Not sure about the ABA thing, but I don't think that is the case. Most of my professors don't even keep attendance records. Perhaps the ABA does it based on a honor code thing.

EDIT: Misread the entire thread

guano wrote:Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

I had my grades changed before. She has to file paperwork stating she miscalculated the grade (as in this case). Register will not reject the grade change. There is nothing to it.

Specialhawk wrote:

guano wrote:Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

Well most Professor I have that count attendance as part of the grade, which most do not, usually only has it affect 10% of the overall grade at most, assuming you miss all the classes but scored a perfect on the exam you can walk away with a A-. Not sure about the ABA thing, but I don't think that is the case. Most of my professors don't even keep attendance records. Perhaps the ABA does it based on a honor code thing.

ABA rule 403-D requires regular attendance, which has been interpreted to mean 80% (with generous rounding, that means a maximum of 3 absences out of 13 classes.

Apparently this rule is enforced with as much vigor as the quest for accurate employment statistics

Miracle wrote:

guano wrote:Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

I had my grades changed before. She has to file paperwork stating she miscalculated the grade (as in this case). Register will not reject the grade change. There is nothing to it.

Without discussing the process, you do realize that the professor did not miscalculate the grade, right?

guano wrote:

Miracle wrote:

guano wrote:Lsomething is nagging me here. The maximum deduction for non-attendance is 20%, which would equate to 5 missed classes out of 13, or more than a third. Doesn't the ABA require regular attendance? Wouldn't that mean that if someone were documented to have missed mor than a third of their classes, they would not be allowed to get any credit for the class?

I know this is irrelevant to the OP, but this seems a bit screwy to me.



To the poster who says it only takes 5-10 minutes to change a grade, I'm pretty sure changing a grade after it has been submitted to the registrar is a lot more substantial than that.

I had my grades changed before. She has to file paperwork stating she miscalculated the grade (as in this case). Register will not reject the grade change. There is nothing to it.

Without discussing the process, you do realize that the professor did not miscalculate the grade, right?

Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

I don't how likely you are to succeed, but I wish you the best of luck. I have a similar situation, but with more absences, so I feel you.

Miracle wrote:Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

She doesn't want to do it because she has no way of knowing whether the OP is being honest or not. There was a time and place to make the change (and that procedure is there because she knows she might make a mistake, which is commendable on her part), and the OP did not take it. That's the OPs fault. The OP can talk to her about it, but no procedure or agreement was violated, and if the OP loses his appeal (which he will), he should just suck it up and learn from it.

jselson wrote:

Miracle wrote:Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

She doesn't want to do it because she has no way of knowing whether the OP is being honest or not. There was a time and place to make the change (and that procedure is there because she knows she might make a mistake, which is commendable on her part), and the OP did not take it. That's the OPs fault. The OP can talk to her about it, but no procedure or agreement was violated, and if the OP loses his appeal (which he will), he should just suck it up and learn from it.

I understand what u are saying.

jselson wrote:

Miracle wrote:Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

She doesn't want to do it because she has no way of knowing whether the OP is being honest or not. There was a time and place to make the change (and that procedure is there because she knows she might make a mistake, which is commendable on her part), and the OP did not take it. That's the OPs fault. The OP can talk to her about it, but no procedure or agreement was violated, and if the OP loses his appeal (which he will), he should just suck it up and learn from it.

It's not like she knows if the people went up to mark the records were lying or not. I understand that was more the acceptable procedure but it's literally just being going up and changing the books on whether or not they were absent.

I know what you are saying but I still feel like I have a decent enough chance. I mean, I did email her asserting I only had two absences, and telling her in that email I had two at the start of the year. Part of my reason for doing that was because I didn't check the record that day. She never disagreed with my email and told me that two absences wouldn't affect me much.

She also told me that a single absence would "have a very small impact on my grade". I have all of these emails printed out and I submitted them with my appeal. She told me that because the presentation also counted as part of my participation grade that absences when proportionally applied would affect me very little.

Doesn't this seem like a violation of some sort of agreement in telling me this and then grading incredibly harshly? I mean I understand "very little" is subjective but I would think that most law students and law professors wouldn't consider a drop in grade an "very small impact". She also told me absences would be "proportionally applied". Hardly seems proportional if she takes 4 of them to for 20%. The way she actually graded seems very different from how I was told by her that she would grade.

Also the school does require all teachers to notify students if attendance will be graded. Granted she did notify us, but if the degree of attendance is going to be so incredibly important shouldn't she have also let us know the exact degree? She mixed in the attendance grade with a in class presentation (which took weeks to prepare) and any reasonable person would at least assume that project was worth 10% and not 5%. When has the main project of the class ever been worth 5%?

Maybe at the end of the day none of that matters. It's her first time teaching as well.

Specialhawk wrote:

jselson wrote:

Miracle wrote:Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

She doesn't want to do it because she has no way of knowing whether the OP is being honest or not. There was a time and place to make the change (and that procedure is there because she knows she might make a mistake, which is commendable on her part), and the OP did not take it. That's the OPs fault. The OP can talk to her about it, but no procedure or agreement was violated, and if the OP loses his appeal (which he will), he should just suck it up and learn from it.

It's not like she knows if the people went up to mark the records were lying or not. I understand that was more the acceptable procedure but it's literally just being going up and changing the books on whether or not they were absent.

I know what you are saying but I still feel like I have a decent enough chance. I mean, I did email her asserting I only had two absences, and telling her in that email I had two at the start of the year. Part of my reason for doing that was because I didn't check the record that day. She never disagreed with my email and told me that two absences wouldn't affect me much.

She also told me that a single absence would "have a very small impact on my grade". I have all of these emails printed out and I submitted them with my appeal. She told me that because the presentation also counted as part of my participation grade that absences when proportionally applied would affect me very little.

Doesn't this seem like a violation of some sort of agreement in telling me this and then grading incredibly harshly? I mean I understand "very little" is subjective but I would think that most law students and law professors wouldn't consider a drop in grade an "very small impact". She also told me absences would be "proportionally applied". Hardly seems proportional if she takes 4 of them to for 20%. The way she actually graded seems very different from how I was told by her that she would grade.

Also the school does require all teachers to notify students if attendance will be graded. Granted she did notify us, but if the degree of attendance is going to be so incredibly important shouldn't she have also let us know the exact degree? She mixed in the attendance grade with a in class presentation (which took weeks to prepare) and any reasonable person would at least assume that project was worth 10% and not 5%. When has the main project of the class ever been worth 5%?

Maybe at the end of the day none of that matters. It's her first time teaching as well.

Figuring out how much to grade does take a bit of work, but I've taught in a university setting for two years myself, and I know that when a student starts asking me off the cuff about their grades, I've said things like, "Oh, I don't think it'll matter much, focus on what you can do for the rest of the class," without knowing whether a minor assignment might drop someone's grade or not (I'm not a calculator). For a teacher, we may say something that is slightly inaccurate or is taken a different way by the student from what we mean. But that's why we have a syllabus - that's the contract. And a lot of instructors' syllabi (mine included) are pretty clear on what things are worth in general, although we all reserve the right to adjust things based on the class.

When it comes to attendance, there's often a big battle between students and instructors since every instructor I knows considers attendance in class absolutely vital, while many students don't. I often get students who complain to me about whether I can let an absence slide so it doesn't affect their grade. My response is that you get a certain number of free passes and you can do with them what you wish, but they're really there for emergencies, not so you can sleep in late. But I still get students who do the sleep-in late stuff, then when they have a real emergency and get a fourth absence (when it counts for my classes, which meet 2-3 times a week), the STUDENT puts ME in a tough place - and yet few of them ever take responsibility for it. I've also had students lie straight to my face about days they were absent, yet they claimed they were not. And if this is a seminar class for you (I think that was mentioned), your professor's gonna think her memory's pretty good.

So in the end, there was a procedure in place that allowed her to give you the benefit of the doubt, which is pretty kind of her, and you kinda blew it. What you've said from the emails is subjective enough that the school's going to side with the professor - believe me, it takes a LOT to convince a higher up that the professor was unjust. That doesn't make you a bad student or irresponsible or anything like that, but you should own up to it and learn from it, imho.

Edit: Oh, and when it comes to my own grading, students get an automatic third of a grade deduction on their final grades for very absence after the freebies. AFAIK, that's pretty standard.

jselson wrote:

Specialhawk wrote:

jselson wrote:

Miracle wrote:Didn't he say he only had two absences, but she counted three against him? Am I missing something?

The reason why she probably doesn't want to do it is because she gave him an opportunity to check it over (her records), and he failed to do so

She doesn't want to do it because she has no way of knowing whether the OP is being honest or not. There was a time and place to make the change (and that procedure is there because she knows she might make a mistake, which is commendable on her part), and the OP did not take it. That's the OPs fault. The OP can talk to her about it, but no procedure or agreement was violated, and if the OP loses his appeal (which he will), he should just suck it up and learn from it.

It's not like she knows if the people went up to mark the records were lying or not. I understand that was more the acceptable procedure but it's literally just being going up and changing the books on whether or not they were absent.

I know what you are saying but I still feel like I have a decent enough chance. I mean, I did email her asserting I only had two absences, and telling her in that email I had two at the start of the year. Part of my reason for doing that was because I didn't check the record that day. She never disagreed with my email and told me that two absences wouldn't affect me much.

She also told me that a single absence would "have a very small impact on my grade". I have all of these emails printed out and I submitted them with my appeal. She told me that because the presentation also counted as part of my participation grade that absences when proportionally applied would affect me very little.

Doesn't this seem like a violation of some sort of agreement in telling me this and then grading incredibly harshly? I mean I understand "very little" is subjective but I would think that most law students and law professors wouldn't consider a drop in grade an "very small impact". She also told me absences would be "proportionally applied". Hardly seems proportional if she takes 4 of them to for 20%. The way she actually graded seems very different from how I was told by her that she would grade.

Also the school does require all teachers to notify students if attendance will be graded. Granted she did notify us, but if the degree of attendance is going to be so incredibly important shouldn't she have also let us know the exact degree? She mixed in the attendance grade with a in class presentation (which took weeks to prepare) and any reasonable person would at least assume that project was worth 10% and not 5%. When has the main project of the class ever been worth 5%?

Maybe at the end of the day none of that matters. It's her first time teaching as well.

Figuring out how much to grade does take a bit of work, but I've taught in a university setting for two years myself, and I know that when a student starts asking me off the cuff about their grades, I've said things like, "Oh, I don't think it'll matter much, focus on what you can do for the rest of the class," without knowing whether a minor assignment might drop someone's grade or not (I'm not a calculator). For a teacher, we may say something that is slightly inaccurate or is taken a different way by the student from what we mean. But that's why we have a syllabus - that's the contract. And a lot of instructors' syllabi (mine included) are pretty clear on what things are worth in general, although we all reserve the right to adjust things based on the class.

When it comes to attendance, there's often a big battle between students and instructors since every instructor I knows considers attendance in class absolutely vital, while many students don't. I often get students who complain to me about whether I can let an absence slide so it doesn't affect their grade. My response is that you get a certain number of free passes and you can do with them what you wish, but they're really there for emergencies, not so you can sleep in late. But I still get students who do the sleep-in late stuff, then when they have a real emergency and get a fourth absence (when it counts for my classes, which meet 2-3 times a week), the STUDENT puts ME in a tough place - and yet few of them ever take responsibility for it. I've also had students lie straight to my face about days they were absent, yet they claimed they were not. And if this is a seminar class for you (I think that was mentioned), your professor's gonna think her memory's pretty good.

So in the end, there was a procedure in place that allowed her to give you the benefit of the doubt, which is pretty kind of her, and you kinda blew it. What you've said from the emails is subjective enough that the school's going to side with the professor - believe me, it takes a LOT to convince a higher up that the professor was unjust. That doesn't make you a bad student or irresponsible or anything like that, but you should own up to it and learn from it, imho.

Edit: Oh, and when it comes to my own grading, students get an automatic third of a grade deduction on their final grades for very absence after the freebies. AFAIK, that's pretty standard.

Why such harshness? You seem very strict.

That's a flawed system. Just because she is a professor her "opinion" shouldn't have been irreplaceable. That's why we have so many sexual abuses in today's education. It all due to our mentality that the professor/teacher cannot due any wrong. Like seriously.

I was discriminated by a female this past semester (she had a little bit of a pretty girl syndrome going on), and she demolished my grade. The process makes it very hard, and draining on the student to fight something like that. Its like someone stamped on my heart 100 times. Its due to those reasons that i can relate to OP. If she told him one thing, and ended up switching on him last minute he feels betrayed. I can totally understand that.

The classroom isn't a democracy. The teacher's "opinion" is what counts (though I don't know what on earth "irrepressible" means in this context). Jselson's not being strict or harsh at all in what he describes.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:The classroom isn't a democracy. The teacher's "opinion" is what counts (though I don't know what on earth "irrepressible" means in this context). Jselson's not being strict or harsh at all in what he describes.

No need to be rude about it. It was as a result of auto correct.