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TheBiggerMediocre

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Employment by Gender the

Post by TheBiggerMediocre » Fri May 10, 2013 2:30 pm

Do any schools post employment by gender?
Almost all the recent law school grads that I have met that went to ranked schools but couldn't find jobs were women. Are there statistics anywhere? Does the glass ceiling exist?

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twenty

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by twenty » Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm

Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.

M458

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by M458 » Fri May 10, 2013 5:06 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
http://employers.nalpdirectory.org/empl ... tham%22%7D

Under Racial/Ethnic demographics, you can see the breakdown of men vs. women associates and partners. You can do this for every NALP firm's office, I belive.

Again, not answering your question directly, but you can see there is a wide discrepancy between # of male partners and # of female partners.

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VegasLaw702

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by VegasLaw702 » Sat May 11, 2013 4:13 am

twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.
Last edited by VegasLaw702 on Sat May 11, 2013 5:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

dkb17xzx

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by dkb17xzx » Sat May 11, 2013 4:58 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, because they usually aren't as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. While they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

this is gonna get interesting.

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TheBiggerMediocre

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by TheBiggerMediocre » Sat May 11, 2013 9:16 pm

Alright I can see a number of these possibilities playing out. But it seems to me as if women are regarded equally but would rather no take on the responsibility of being partner.

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rinkrat19

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by rinkrat19 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:27 pm

TheBiggerMediocre wrote:Alright I can see a number of these possibilities playing out. But it seems to me as if women are regarded equally but would rather no take on the responsibility of being partner.
And where are you getting this cute little fantasy?

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dr123

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by dr123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:28 pm

dkb17xzx wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, because they usually aren't as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. While they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

this is gonna get interesting.
loooool.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sat May 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).

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062914123

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by 062914123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:30 pm

.
Last edited by 062914123 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rinkrat19

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by rinkrat19 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).
Vegas seems to have rephrased himself.

OP is lame, ty for the warning. I shall not engage.

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dr123

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by dr123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:39 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).
Vegas seems to have rephrased himself.

OP is lame, ty for the warning. I shall not engage.
nah that's some back pedalling

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Tekrul

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by Tekrul » Sun May 12, 2013 9:18 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.
Part of this reason may fall into an anomaly particular to the legal education or legal work, amongst other select fields.

Across the board in most types of universities, women outperform men in class and achieve higher grades and more departmental honors. However, it should be noted that grades at a college are often made up of frequent "checks". Short papers, problem sets, quizzes, and midterms. This lends itself to the diligence and lesser degree of socialization that women have statistically reported at universities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/educa ... wanted=all


However, law school is one of those few types of school where men vastly outperform women. Many have attributed it to the adversarial type of learning that the Socratic Method exemplifies; perhaps women do not respond to this type of learning. Others have called into question factors such as the fact that men outperform women on the SAT. When the entire grade comes down to 1 four hour exam, much like the SAT, the high stakes pressure and the nature of law school not having any of college's "checks" seems not to speak to women. Still more look to the trend that men outperform women in math and science related courses. As these courses lend themselves to logical/analytical ability much as law does, perhaps there is a relation there.
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/jlsj/vol33/iss1/3/

I have included sources here because I have brought up a salient issue.

This is a problem that law schools have been aware of for almost 20 years. I can say confidently that it is a topic of debate at many law schools and the ABA but no one is quite sure of the actual reason why this is the case so change has been slow just because they don't know quite what to change.

So as far as gender discrepancy goes in employment and advancement - it may seem to heavily favor men, and perhaps the lifestyle of a law firm associate or the self selection of women to leave the work force plays a role, but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school.

Edit: Sigh! This was a troll? Thanks for wasting my time and making me heated about an actual problem, idiot.

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twenty

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by twenty » Sun May 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Tekrul wrote:fairly long post
Though OP may have been a troll, I would like to publicly commend you on taking what could appear to be a very unpopular position and giving a reasonable case for it.

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TheBiggerMediocre

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by TheBiggerMediocre » Sun May 12, 2013 12:25 pm

Tekrul wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.
Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.
Part of this reason may fall into an anomaly particular to the legal education or legal work, amongst other select fields.

Across the board in most types of universities, women outperform men in class and achieve higher grades and more departmental honors. However, it should be noted that grades at a college are often made up of frequent "checks". Short papers, problem sets, quizzes, and midterms. This lends itself to the diligence and lesser degree of socialization that women have statistically reported at universities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/educa ... wanted=all


However, law school is one of those few types of school where men vastly outperform women. Many have attributed it to the adversarial type of learning that the Socratic Method exemplifies; perhaps women do not respond to this type of learning. Others have called into question factors such as the fact that men outperform women on the SAT. When the entire grade comes down to 1 four hour exam, much like the SAT, the high stakes pressure and the nature of law school not having any of college's "checks" seems not to speak to women. Still more look to the trend that men outperform women in math and science related courses. As these courses lend themselves to logical/analytical ability much as law does, perhaps there is a relation there.
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/jlsj/vol33/iss1/3/

I have included sources here because I have brought up a salient issue.

This is a problem that law schools have been aware of for almost 20 years. I can say confidently that it is a topic of debate at many law schools and the ABA but no one is quite sure of the actual reason why this is the case so change has been slow just because they don't know quite what to change.

So as far as gender discrepancy goes in employment and advancement - it may seem to heavily favor men, and perhaps the lifestyle of a law firm associate or the self selection of women to leave the work force plays a role, but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school.

Edit: Sigh! This was a troll? Thanks for wasting my time and making me heated about an actual problem, idiot.
I am NOT A FUCKING TROLL, thanks for the response. What do you mean by "but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school" ?

I guess that means men outperform women in law school as a change of pace from college. Are there any facts to back up that remark about entry level jobs after law school selecting men over women of the same class rank and school?

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by rad lulz » Sun May 12, 2013 12:43 pm

Employment by Gender the
lol

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oaken

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by oaken » Sun May 12, 2013 6:25 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Employment by Gender the
lol

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Tekrul

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by Tekrul » Sun May 12, 2013 11:01 pm

By "the discrepancy starts early and begins at law school" I mean to say that the overwhelming ratio of men:women in the legal work force is not a gender discrepancy that is solely based on issues in the work force, or self-selection, or a "boys' club" effect. Instead, women have been systematically put at a disadvantage by some 'thing' that goes on at law schools because of which women do not perform as well as their male counterparts. This particularity in law school is made clear by the fact that women tend to outperform men in most other types of academic environments.

@twentypercentmore - Thank you. I was worried about catching huge amounts of flak, but if we are too afraid to bring up unsavory issues, they'll go silently unopposed. This is an issue that really needs to be addressed.

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Dr. Dre

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Re: Employment by Gender the

Post by Dr. Dre » Fri May 17, 2013 12:54 pm

oaken wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Employment by Gender the
lol

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