Top Law Schools

I mean, as opposed to T13, or T17, or whatever? Why fourteen?
I have to believe that I'm missing something here.

mlansky wrote:I mean, as opposed to T13, or T17, or whatever? Why fourteen?
I have to believe that I'm missing something here.

There just happen to be 14 really good schools. If Penn just happened to shut down, it'd be T13. There wouldn't be a new t14.

People will claim stupid reasons like they've all been t10 in USNEWs but that's silly.

You're probably missing a few things, among them, the search function. This question has been discussed and debated on these forums ad nauseam.

Honestly it should be t13. GULC is TTT

They are the biglaw factories and nowadays most schools cost of attendance requires big law to pay off.

Desert Fox wrote:

mlansky wrote:I mean, as opposed to T13, or T17, or whatever? Why fourteen?
I have to believe that I'm missing something here.

There just happen to be 14 really good schools. If Penn just happened to shut down, it'd be T13. There wouldn't be a new t14.

People will claim stupid reasons like they've all been t10 in USNEWs but that's silly.

+1. Best ever answer.

For the record, I tried to search but nothing came up for strings as vague as "Why T14" and "T14 Special" so, decided to ask. Thanks for the responses.

This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

JXander wrote:This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

This only furthers the GULC=TTT argument.

RELIC wrote:

JXander wrote:This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

This only furthers the GULC=TTT argument.

I was surprised when Vandy, Texas, and GULC did not hit a 3-way tie this time around.

JXander wrote:

RELIC wrote:

JXander wrote:This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

This only furthers the GULC=TTT argument.

I was surprised when Vandy, Texas, and GULC did not hit a 3-way tie this time around.

Well if it was based on employment outcomes they would have but it is also about reputation and other BS factors.

RELIC wrote:

JXander wrote:This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

This only furthers the GULC=TTT argument.

Gtown is like half in the T14, half outside. I think a great deal of it's placement gap is just DC is graded whorish to the max. And Gtown is a school filled with people who want DC. I sorta doubt a Michigan bro would do all that differently they instead went to GULC.

RELIC wrote:

JXander wrote:This is why. Pay attention to the orange in the graph.

This only furthers the GULC=TTT argument.

How so? I'm asking because I'm seriously considering going to Georgetown.

According to that chart, the chances of getting into BigLaw are roughly the same at Georgetown, Virginia, Yale, Stanford, and Michigan. It also seems that Georgetown has the largest proportion of students going into government work (14%) in the T14. Many of these could be students who never aspired to BigLaw, but came to Georgetown for the proximity to DC.

I don't see how these numbers explain the bad reputation Georgetown has on here.

glebe wrote: I don't see how these numbers explain the bad reputation Georgetown has on here.

It is not a matter of having "bad reputation," but more a matter of a biglaw firm's perception of a school. Based on this graph, there is over a 15% difference in biglaw employment between Cornell and GTown. That's quite a jump. I would also argue that UVA's 98% overall employment rate makes up for lacking in biglaw employment.

JXander wrote:

glebe wrote: I don't see how these numbers explain the bad reputation Georgetown has on here.

It is not a matter of having "bad reputation," but more a matter of a biglaw firm's perception of a school. Based on this graph, there is over a 15% difference in biglaw employment between Cornell and GTown. That's quite a jump. I would also argue that UVA's 98% overall employment rate makes up for lacking in biglaw employment.

Georgetown already occupies the lowest rung of the T14, so pointing out that Cornell has better BigLaw stats doesn't prove that Georgetown is a third-rate school. Cornell has the 4th highest chances for BigLaw, but is only ranked 13th. If anything, that supports the argument that Cornell should be ranked higher among the T14. Meanwhile, if Georgetown is compared to any school outside the T14, it has superior BigLaw hiring prospects.

Again, I'm asking because I'm sincerely interested in going to Georgetown. If the most important factor in our judgment is BigLaw hiring, then it seems that Georgetown is at least the worst of the T14, and the best among all other schools. In that case, Georgetown's rank of 14 seems appropriate and the "GeorgeTTTown" brouhaha seems misguided.

GeorgeTTTown means Georgetown is the TTT of the T14.

sinfiery wrote:GeorgeTTTown means Georgetown is the TTT of the T14.

+1

I'd still take gtown over any other non-T14... at equal price. The trick is that usually if you get Georgetown you'll either get a better scholarship from a regional powerhouse or you'll also get into a better school. It's about opportunity cost, and usually Georgetown is the worse option in those scenarios.

glebe wrote:According to that chart, the chances of getting into BigLaw are roughly the same at Georgetown, Virginia, Yale, Stanford, and Michigan.

That's definitely not what the chart says.

Ti Malice wrote:

glebe wrote:According to that chart, the chances of getting into BigLaw are roughly the same at Georgetown, Virginia, Yale, Stanford, and Michigan.

That's definitely not what the chart says.

+1

Also, keep in mind you really have to include federal clerkship numbers. Federal clerkships are generally harder to get than biglaw and most of these people already have a firm lined up afterwards or will be able to get biglaw afterwards.

JXander wrote: I would also argue that UVA's 98% overall employment rate makes up for lacking in biglaw employment.

The 98% mark just means that UVA is better at gaming the system than other schools. Maybe it's a somewhat nice safety-net to work for the school for ~30K for a year after graduation (as opposed to GW $14/hr (or whatever it is) or nothing at all), but that's hardly a good outcome.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:~30K for a year after graduation (as opposed to GW $14/hr (or whatever it is) or nothing at all)

I'd just like to point out that $30k/yr is $15/hr at 40 hours per week.

JXander wrote: I would also argue that UVA's 98% overall employment rate makes up for lacking in biglaw employment.

The 98% mark just means that UVA is better at gaming the system than other schools. Maybe it's a somewhat nice safety-net to work for the school for ~30K for a year after graduation (as opposed to GW $14/hr (or whatever it is) or nothing at all), but that's hardly a good outcome.

Those UVA kids in SF-jobs aren't working for the school and licking envelopes in the mailroom as your post subtly suggests. They are working in government agencies, public interest jobs, courts and law firms while UVA pays them 31,500K/year. (Where does UVA get this money? They have one of the highest alumni giving rates) From what I've read, almost all of these kids land legit jobs after their fellowships are over. Also, I don't know if UVA is consciously gaming the system but their efforts deserve an applause. Getting 400 graduates legal jobs at graduation is a huge fuckin task...

TripTrip wrote:

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:~30K for a year after graduation (as opposed to GW $14/hr (or whatever it is) or nothing at all)

I'd just like to point out that $30k/yr is $15/hr at 40 hours per week.

It's interesting (well at least to me) that $15/hr seems worse to me then 30K/yr. The fun of psychology. In any case, the GW program is only for 35 hours per week.* (And the UVA fellowship is 31,500 for class of 2013, plus bar expenses.**) My point was that both GW and UVA are gaming the system with these programs, which is something that's been discussed on TLS a bit. 98% doesn't look so good when it actually includes people who didn't find a legal job and thus had to be paid by their school.


* http://abovethelaw.com/2012/06/george-w ... e-funding/
** http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/public ... wships.htm

ETA:

Those UVA kids in SF-jobs aren't working for the school and licking envelopes in the mailroom as your post subtly suggests. They are working in government agencies, public interest jobs, courts and law firms while UVA pays them 31,500K/year. (Where does UVA get this money? They have one of the highest alumni giving rates) From what I've read, almost all of these kids land legit jobs after their fellowships are over. Also, I don't know if UVA is consciously gaming the system but their efforts deserve an applause. Getting 400 graduates legal jobs at graduation is a huge fuckin task...

You're right--it's a better program than what some other schools are doing. And it's a nice safety-net for those who didn't find anything. I still don't think it's controversial to claim that this is not an optimal outcome for these people (especially those who still don't have anything after this fellowship is over). When people see 98%, I doubt they are thinking of school funded fellowships at ~30K that year for a large chunk of the class who couldn't find a job and now are hoping to god they can get something after this fellowship.

It really helped UVAs case when 32 out of 40 of SFJ members were in LT FT legal jobs with 5 unknown.

It would be interesting to see GW conducting a similar study

LOL at how TTT 0Ls are now. Just getting a job is a victory.

Here is a pro tip. You'll get a fucking job for free if you spend three years looking for one. No law school needed.

GULC has a fair ranking. About 25% are PI/Gov't which is what a significant portion of students there self-select into because they want to be in DC specifically for that opportunity. Those jobs are as, if not more, competitive then Biglaw jobs. Also, the raw number of GULC students getting Biglaw is normally higher then almost anywhere else. Idt hiring partner's give a discount to a GULC v UVA with all things being equal. They just have such a big school that they hurt their own stats. If GULC had 400, instead of 600, I bet they would easily have a top T10 Biglaw ranking even with a significant portion of students self-selecting into Gov't and PI.