Top Law Schools

So i was at work today (ima personal trainer) and during a break in the workout my client tells me about his daughters acceptance to Saint Johns University (the law school obviously). He was REALLY proud of it, bragging about how she got a 10k scholarship... i didnt say anything because it wouldve been completely uncool, but dont people even do basic research about the chances of employment (and etc) about schools. I was just completely shocked because Saint Johns is from even the most basic google search a pretty poor option for someone who wants to end up as a lawyer... and the decision not to attend and retake the LSAT seems the ONLY logical choice, yet his daughter (and him) are incredibly proud about the acceptance, and even more so the money.

So is this just the "elitism" i see hear on TLS, because i honestly assumed that TLS makes up a HUGE CHUNK of the potential law school applicants of the future, or is this the average applicant, someone who doesnt even realize what kind of a risk going to a top 20 school is, let alone a school in the 80's.

Pretty average, but there has recently been more mainstream exposure on 'the law school scam'.

Getting a legal job is elitist

rad lulz wrote:Getting a legal job is elitist

+120

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But St. John's offers the ONLY L.L.M. in Bankruptcy in the United States.

This forum tends to attract people who are very obsessive about law school and the legal profession. Anyone who went to a reasonably large undergrad should know that. Also boomers are generally clueless about higher ed.

bdm261 wrote:But St. John's offers the ONLY L.L.M. in Bankruptcy in the United States.

Probably the most useful LLM for a graduate of St Johns

Shmoopy wrote:While there were plenty of people at my UG who went to law school (mostly T14), whenever I'm talking to a friend from my UG and mentioned that I applied to law school but probably won't go, they usually nod and smile and tell me that I made a good decision. So some people know.

When I tell people at my UG that I'm not going to go Law School after applying and getting accepted into a few schools they think I'm either being completely irresponsible about my future or some type of desperate prestige whore when I mentioning re-taking the LSAT and going to a better school.

I'm just trying to not be unemployed (or employed at a salary close to what I could probably get without a law degree) and in $250 K of debt here. So yeah, a lot of people are uninformed. Especially people that don't have any ties to the legal industry or law school.

vzapana wrote:

rad lulz wrote:Getting a legal job is elitist

+120

confused by this... +120, as in so much better than +1? or 120, as in lowest lsat score possible?

Plenty of lay people think just getting into any law school is a big accomplishment in and of itself.

mephistopheles wrote:

vzapana wrote:

rad lulz wrote:Getting a legal job is elitist

+120

confused by this... +120, as in so much better than +1? or 120, as in lowest lsat score possible?

LSAT. He's either agreeing 120 times (something ironic) or saying it's a bad joke, but then there wouldn't be a +.

My parents would brag if I got in to Cooley for sticker, because they don't know jack about law school. No one in my family went to grad or professional school, and I was the first K-BA/BS. My dad and his brother are the only adults in my family with a bachelors. My parents and uncles and gparents obviously didn't need degrees.

When I started getting into TT and a few T law schools, they were thrilled. I didn't do as well offer wise as undergrad (top 40, varsity sport, 1/2 ride), but it's law school. To them that's an amazing accomplishment because no one in the family ever took the sat/act, let alone the LSAT.

Parents brag about the good things their kids do. Parents that haven't gone or applied to law school don't know much about it, and good law schools in their time aren't always good now.

A parent has a right to brag about their kid. His daughter might have overcome huge odds to get in to St. John's.

I don't think it's right to assume he's misinformed. Maybe he knows it's not a great school, but he's proud of his girl. I mean my parents bragged about stuff I did even though they knew it was NBD. It's just how good parents that love their kids. I think it's a Pitt pretentious to judge people for being misinformed because they're excited. Most everyday people think it's a big deal and really hard to get in to law school (which it is under 50% most schools), so whatever. It's nice that people can get excited about their kids.


I would think it's cool that her dad loves her that much, not think he's ignorant.

john7234797 wrote:

Shmoopy wrote:While there were plenty of people at my UG who went to law school (mostly T14), whenever I'm talking to a friend from my UG and mentioned that I applied to law school but probably won't go, they usually nod and smile and tell me that I made a good decision. So some people know.

When I tell people at my UG that I'm not going to go Law School after applying and getting accepted into a few schools they think I'm either being completely irresponsible about my future or some type of desperate prestige whore when I mentioning re-taking the LSAT and going to a better school.

I'm just trying to not be unemployed (or employed at a salary close to what I could probably get without a law degree) and in $250 K of debt here. So yeah, a lot of people are uninformed. Especially people that don't have any ties to the legal industry or law school.

This. I had a LOT of people tell me I need to be satisfied with my great luck after I got a few full scholarships from T50s last year. And they definitely thought I was stupid for retaking. They also told me, "it doesn't matter which law school you go to... just getting a law degree is accomplishment." And I wanted to be like, "and you base this statement on what? Have you ever researched the law profession?" but couldn't due to them being my bosses.

throw-away-soon wrote:My parents would brag if I got in to Cooley for sticker, because they don't know jack about law school. No one in my family went to grad or professional school, and I was the first K-BA/BS. My dad and his brother are the only adults in my family with a bachelors. My parents and uncles and gparents obviously didn't need degrees.

When I started getting into TT and a few T law schools, they were thrilled. I didn't do as well offer wise as undergrad (top 40, varsity sport, 1/2 ride), but it's law school. To them that's an amazing accomplishment because no one in the family ever took the sat/act, let alone the LSAT.

Parents brag about the good things their kids do. Parents that haven't gone or applied to law school don't know much about it, and good law schools in their time aren't always good now.

A parent has a right to brag about their kid. His daughter might have overcome huge odds to get in to St. John's.

I don't think it's right to assume he's misinformed. Maybe he knows it's not a great school, but he's proud of his girl. I mean my parents bragged about stuff I did even though they knew it was NBD. It's just how good parents that love their kids. I think it's a Pitt pretentious to judge people for being misinformed because they're excited. Most everyday people think it's a big deal and really hard to get in to law school (which it is under 50% most schools), so whatever. It's nice that people can get excited about their kids.


I would think it's cool that her dad loves her that much, not think he's ignorant.

Fast-forward three years and all of a sudden that pride goes away when his daughter is working overnight at a 7-eleven to pay off her law school loans.

Different things make people happy. No need to ruin it for them, and who knows, maybe she'll be gainfully employed and do just fine.

Lumieres wrote:Different things make people happy. No need to ruin it for them, and who knows, maybe she'll be gainfully employed and do just fine.

+1

OP is a personal trainer. I don't think average joes get personal trainers. She sounds like she'll be fine. Even at a 40k job, she'll be fine as long as someone can wipe her debt away. Not everyone's situation is the same. Some parents just want their children to "make it" and be happy. It doesn't matter if they're shelling out 250k (assuming they're able to).

throw-away-soon wrote:My parents would brag if I got in to Cooley for sticker, because they don't know jack about law school. No one in my family went to grad or professional school, and I was the first K-BA/BS. My dad and his brother are the only adults in my family with a bachelors. My parents and uncles and gparents obviously didn't need degrees.

When I started getting into TT and a few T law schools, they were thrilled. I didn't do as well offer wise as undergrad (top 40, varsity sport, 1/2 ride), but it's law school. To them that's an amazing accomplishment because no one in the family ever took the sat/act, let alone the LSAT.

Parents brag about the good things their kids do. Parents that haven't gone or applied to law school don't know much about it, and good law schools in their time aren't always good now.

A parent has a right to brag about their kid. His daughter might have overcome huge odds to get in to St. John's.

I don't think it's right to assume he's misinformed. Maybe he knows it's not a great school, but he's proud of his girl. I mean my parents bragged about stuff I did even though they knew it was NBD. It's just how good parents that love their kids. I think it's a Pitt pretentious to judge people for being misinformed because they're excited. Most everyday people think it's a big deal and really hard to get in to law school (which it is under 50% most schools), so whatever. It's nice that people can get excited about their kids.


I would think it's cool that her dad loves her that much, not think he's ignorant.

+1

throw-away-soon wrote:My parents would brag if I got in to Cooley for sticker, because they don't know jack about law school. No one in my family went to grad or professional school, and I was the first K-BA/BS. My dad and his brother are the only adults in my family with a bachelors. My parents and uncles and gparents obviously didn't need degrees.

When I started getting into TT and a few T law schools, they were thrilled. I didn't do as well offer wise as undergrad (top 40, varsity sport, 1/2 ride), but it's law school. To them that's an amazing accomplishment because no one in the family ever took the sat/act, let alone the LSAT.

Parents brag about the good things their kids do. Parents that haven't gone or applied to law school don't know much about it, and good law schools in their time aren't always good now.

A parent has a right to brag about their kid. His daughter might have overcome huge odds to get in to St. John's.

I don't think it's right to assume he's misinformed. Maybe he knows it's not a great school, but he's proud of his girl. I mean my parents bragged about stuff I did even though they knew it was NBD. It's just how good parents that love their kids. I think it's a Pitt pretentious to judge people for being misinformed because they're excited. Most everyday people think it's a big deal and really hard to get in to law school (which it is under 50% most schools), so whatever. It's nice that people can get excited about their kids.


I would think it's cool that her dad loves her that much, not think he's ignorant.

That’s exactly the point, your parents would brag, about getting Cooley at sticker… that’s just being completely misinformed. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, most people don’t care, because they aren’t even thinking of law school, but for the people who are (and those who have been accepted), they need to do basic research. Some people Balk at going to Columbia at sticker… and this girl is taking an investment that’s pretty close to that, except with job prospects after graduation that are MUCH lower.
Also you completely avoided the question and I’m not judging the guy at all…. This is more of a query of how uninformed the average law school applicant is. There’s also a difference between getting into a Tier 1 school, and into a school that’s at the far end of being a Tier 2.
Also, I think it’s great that he is happy for her, just that he talked knowledgably about Law schools, but his information was completely wrong… he is still under the impression that the fact that she got into a law school is a ticket to riches, when right now, it’s incredibly risky to attend law school.
Finally, this has nothing to do with whether or not he loves her, but whether or not he knows (and she knows) the kind of financial risk she’s putting herself under. (Which is pretty much what my question is)

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FWIW, some posts in this thread seem to really demonstrate why people think people are 'crazy' for retaking or turning down schools. Maybe if you took a minute to explain to your friends in a normal, conversational way that yeah, your LSAT or admittance was good but that 'those schools won't get me the jobs I want no matter hard I hustle', they'd understand.

Or at least that's how it went for me.

gnomgnomuch wrote:So i was at work today (ima personal trainer) and during a break in the workout my client tells me about his daughters acceptance to Saint Johns University (the law school obviously). He was REALLY proud of it, bragging about how she got a 10k scholarship... i didnt say anything because it wouldve been completely uncool, but dont people even do basic research about the chances of employment (and etc) about schools. I was just completely shocked because Saint Johns is from even the most basic google search a pretty poor option for someone who wants to end up as a lawyer... and the decision not to attend and retake the LSAT seems the ONLY logical choice, yet his daughter (and him) are incredibly proud about the acceptance, and even more so the money.

So is this just the "elitism" i see hear on TLS, because i honestly assumed that TLS makes up a HUGE CHUNK of the potential law school applicants of the future, or is this the average applicant, someone who doesnt even realize what kind of a risk going to a top 20 school is, let alone a school in the 80's.

because not everyone in the world are the flaming pretentious douches that hang around this site, to the average person going to law school is an accomplishment, no matter what school you go to....is it a risk? of course, but a lot of things in life are a risk....I work at a large, prestigious law firm and looking at the top 10 most successful/wealthiest lawyers that work there, only ONE went to a T14 school (one actually went to St. Johns)....if you want to slave away at a large defense firm billing 60-70 hours a week then yeah you should be concerned with going to a T14 school, but most people would rather have something called a life....I know someone who graduated from a T4 school 2 years ago and has a well paying job as a lawyer, at the end of the day it’s all about who you know....people should def do research regarding law school before they apply, but I feel like so many people on this forum think you’re fucked in life as a lawyer if you don’t have a T14 degree attached to your name, which is FAR from the truth


and to your last comment, I'd say TLS makes up about 1-5% (if that) of the applicants applying to law school...

One of my older friends (mid 30s, mature?) was legitimately trying to persuade me that a full-ride to Howard was better than sticker at Harvard, because I wouldn't have debt and "all of the firms that go to Harvard go to Howard too." Fer sher

JDot wrote:because not everyone in the world are the flaming pretentious douches that hang around this site, to the average person going to law school is an accomplishment, no matter what school you go to....is it a risk? of course, but a lot of things in life are a risk....I work at a large, prestigious law firm and looking at the top 10 most successful/wealthiest lawyers that work there, only ONE went to a T14 school (one actually went to St. Johns)....if you want to slave away at a large defense firm billing 60-70 hours a week then yeah you should be concerned with going to a T14 school, but most people would rather have something called a life....I know someone who graduated from a T4 school 2 years ago and has a well paying job as a lawyer, at the end of the day it’s all about who you know....people should def do research regarding law school before they apply, but I feel like so many people on this forum think you’re fucked in life as a lawyer if you don’t have a T14 degree attached to your name, which is FAR from the truth


and to your last comment, I'd say TLS makes up about 1-5% (if that) of the applicants applying to law school...

This comment is incredibly stupid

I didn't realize that going to a school that offers more than a 50/50 shot at a legal job was elitist

JDot wrote:

gnomgnomuch wrote:So i was at work today (ima personal trainer) and during a break in the workout my client tells me about his daughters acceptance to Saint Johns University (the law school obviously). He was REALLY proud of it, bragging about how she got a 10k scholarship... i didnt say anything because it wouldve been completely uncool, but dont people even do basic research about the chances of employment (and etc) about schools. I was just completely shocked because Saint Johns is from even the most basic google search a pretty poor option for someone who wants to end up as a lawyer... and the decision not to attend and retake the LSAT seems the ONLY logical choice, yet his daughter (and him) are incredibly proud about the acceptance, and even more so the money.

So is this just the "elitism" i see hear on TLS, because i honestly assumed that TLS makes up a HUGE CHUNK of the potential law school applicants of the future, or is this the average applicant, someone who doesnt even realize what kind of a risk going to a top 20 school is, let alone a school in the 80's.

because not everyone in the world are the flaming pretentious douches that hang around this site, to the average person going to law school is an accomplishment, no matter what school you go to....is it a risk? of course, but a lot of things in life are a risk....I work at a large, prestigious law firm and looking at the top 10 most successful/wealthiest lawyers that work there, only ONE went to a T14 school (one actually went to St. Johns)....if you want to slave away at a large defense firm billing 60-70 hours a week then yeah you should be concerned with going to a T14 school, but most people would rather have something called a life....I know someone who graduated from a T4 school 2 years ago and has a well paying job as a lawyer, at the end of the day it’s all about who you know....people should def do research regarding law school before they apply, but I feel like so many people on this forum think you’re fucked in life as a lawyer if you don’t have a T14 degree attached to your name, which is FAR from the truth


and to your last comment, I'd say TLS makes up about 1-5% (if that) of the applicants applying to law school...

I have absolutely no disagreement that TLS is pessimistic toward going to law school, but that's mostly attributable to being well-informed about the current reality of attending law school. Namely that it's a HUGE risk for a lot of people. Just peruse LST for an hour and tell me that taking on ANY debt is worthwhile for some of the placement prospects at schools like St. John's. It's not about whether it COULD pay off, but whether it's a smart gamble to take. Attending law school today is a huge valuation assessment for most applicants, and for a large percentage, it's definitely not a sound investment. Most of the pessimistic people around here are just realistic that it's a stupid investment to throw down $200k+ for a 50% chance of a job as a lawyer. I'll be going to law school for free if I decide to go (at one of those prestige whore T14 most likely) and the employment prospects and time lost for going to school still scare me.

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence, but I'll stick with the data and make an assessment on that. LST>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your cool story.