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http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=110283

This is an older thread, but I'm wondering if this OP's facts are correct about North Carolina's legal economy and the prospects for doing solo/small law work? Can a Cooley grad in NC really go on to make more than biglaw associates?

"There are 6 lawyers from Cooley in my hometown that are in their mid 30's and are members of country clubs, have 500k houses, etc... "

and

"I want to focus on being a criminal defense attorney, but also do trusts, wills, personal injury and other torts... EVEN IF all I get is court appointed cases, I BILL THE STATE OUT @ 75 HOUR!!! Do the math, (75x40)x52 = 150 some thousand! Haha, that is more or equal to the money balling ass law firms pay first year harvard students... AND THAT IS NOT EVEN COUNTING ANY PRIVATE CLIENTS I MIGHT OBTAIN... Think about it, 1500 for a DUI here, 1500 for some weed charges there... I could very well be making 200 k within 5 years out of school.. AND IM MY OWN BOSS... I don't have to answer to any high power partners, etc. I set my own hours, I tell myself what to do, when to do, and how to do... ALL U NEED IS TO PASS THE BAR! Soooo... what is wrong with going to cooley if this can be achieved, and, in turn, make more money than a top 5 LS grad? PLEASE, I'm begging to hear some responses in rebuttal "

Anything's possible, but it's not likely.

cinephile wrote:Anything's possible, but it's not likely.

Yeah, I'm wondering about the math he put out.

scifiguy wrote:

cinephile wrote:Anything's possible, but it's not likely.

Yeah, I'm wondering about the math he put out.

He forgot taxes, insurance, overhead and the fact that the state would never assign one recent grad that much work.

I think every law school has that one guy that started his own practice and became a millionaire. But even if Cooley does have one, somehow I doubt it's going to be this guy...

He already was a millionaire before going to Cooley.

(Assuming he's real, of course)

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:He already was a millionaire before going to Cooley.

(Assuming he's real, of course)

It was hard reading through some of what he wrote, because of how obnoxious he was. It sounded like he purposely was putting down biglaw and T14 type of law grads, in addition to regular middle-class people.

But, in terms of his claims.....if anyone's from NC, it'd be great to hear if you can really pull off his plan there. He made it seem like a jackpot.

scifiguy wrote:But, in terms of his claims.....if anyone's from NC, it'd be great to hear if you can really pull off his plan there. He made it seem like a jackpot.

Can you even volunteer for appointed cases?

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:He already was a millionaire before going to Cooley.

(Assuming he's real, of course)

If he doesn't need to make millions, then what's the point of going to Cooley?

scifiguy wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=110283

This is an older thread, but I'm wondering if this OP's facts are correct about North Carolina's legal economy and the prospects for doing solo/small law work? Can a Cooley grad in NC really go on to make more than biglaw associates?

"There are 6 lawyers from Cooley in my hometown that are in their mid 30's and are members of country clubs, have 500k houses, etc... "

and

I want to focus on being a criminal defense attorney, but also do trusts, wills, personal injury and other torts... EVEN IF all I get is court appointed cases, I BILL THE STATE OUT @ 75 HOUR!!! Do the math, (75x40)x52 = 150 some thousand! Haha, that is more or equal to the money balling ass law firms pay first year harvard students... AND THAT IS NOT EVEN COUNTING ANY PRIVATE CLIENTS I MIGHT OBTAIN... Think about it, 1500 for a DUI here, 1500 for some weed charges there... I could very well be making 200 k within 5 years out of school.. AND IM MY OWN BOSS... I don't have to answer to any high power partners, etc. I set my own hours, I tell myself what to do, when to do, and how to do... ALL U NEED IS TO PASS THE BAR! Soooo... what is wrong with going to cooley if this can be achieved, and, in turn, make more money than a top 5 LS grad? PLEASE, I'm begging to hear some responses in rebuttal

The scam doesn't work if no one makes money. Scam works if a very small percentage make money, giving others irrational hope.

TheGreatFish wrote:

alwayssunnyinfl wrote:He already was a millionaire before going to Cooley.

(Assuming he's real, of course)

If he doesn't need to make millions, then what's the point of going to Cooley?

Actually know a retiree who may not have made millions, but did very well in her previous job, who went to a local T2 just for kicks/boredom/retirement project.

EvilClinton wrote:

scifiguy wrote:

cinephile wrote:Anything's possible, but it's not likely.

Yeah, I'm wondering about the math he put out.

He forgot taxes, insurance, overhead and the fact that the state would never assign one recent grad that much work.

He forgot how much time you need to find clients, or how much graft you need to spend to be appointed that many clients

The math is fine, but unlikely

Is he just going to work out of his house? No office to pay for?

TripTrip wrote:Is he just going to work out of his house? No office to pay for?

He's not gonna work. The clients are going to walk into his office, pay him a fee and be declared innocent on the spot

dingbat wrote:

TripTrip wrote:Is he just going to work out of his house? No office to pay for?

He's not gonna work. The clients are going to walk into his office, pay him a fee and be declared innocent on the spot

Opposing counsel will just drop all charges when they find out the client is being represented by an elite Cooley graduate

Idk if there's any point to talking about his seriously, but my understanding is that the flaw in line of reasoning in the OP is that revenue is being conflated with net income, and that revenue estimate is very generous because the hardest part, getting that much work in the first place, is glossed over. There are a lot of threads at JDU that talk about the process of hanging a shingle in more detail. Seems like having the capital to invest in major advertising and having enough to weather dry periods is key. As well as not making tons of newb procedural mistakes.

scifiguy wrote:
EVEN IF all I get is court appointed cases, I BILL THE STATE OUT @ 75 HOUR!!! Do the math, (75x40)x52 = 150 some thousand! Haha, that is more or equal to the money balling ass law firms pay first year harvard students...

I've never cared to read "a day in the life of a shitlaw lawyer" so I know very little about their typical workday (if there is one). I'm going to assume that 1 billable hour does not equal 1 hour in the office; meaning that you're going to need to bill 2,080 a year to meet that 150k expectation and likely be working as much as a biglaw associate. I can tell you that I'd rather be working biglaw and have dozens of future options available for me because of it than work shitlaw and be stuck--not even considering the prestige factor as well.

Do what you want to do, bud. If you want to attend Cooley Law and try to beat the odds than more power to you; however, you shouldn't be posting threads implying that this is better than that. It is not only an ignorant attempt to boost your self-esteem as it shows your insecurities as well.

First, It looks like they cut the fee in 2011 from $75 to $50 an hour. Second, while I can't find anything about the requirements of being a court appointed lawyer in North Carolina, I know of other jurisdictions that do pay 150k to court appointed attorneys, but it's pretty difficult to to get qualified. If they're going to pay that much, they want you to have practiced for a while in a particular speciality. Finally, there's no guarantee that an attorney will be appointed enough cases to pay even an extremely low overhead, let alone make 6 figures.

As Lt. Aldo Raine said, "Long story short, we hear a story too good to be true...it ain't."

Shmoopy wrote:Idk if there's any point to talking about his seriously

There's not. If you're so entrepreneurially inclined as to consider this a viable idea, you should just start your own business that does not revolve around law. There are plenty of things you could do without spending three years and hundreds of thousands of dollars getting another degree.

Justin Genious wrote:

scifiguy wrote:
EVEN IF all I get is court appointed cases, I BILL THE STATE OUT @ 75 HOUR!!! Do the math, (75x40)x52 = 150 some thousand! Haha, that is more or equal to the money balling ass law firms pay first year harvard students...

I've never cared to read "a day in the life of a shitlaw lawyer" so I know very little about their typical workday (if there is one). I'm going to assume that 1 billable hour does not equal 1 hour in the office; meaning that you're going to need to bill 2,080 a year to meet that 150k expectation and likely be working as much as a biglaw associate. I can tell you that I'd rather be working biglaw and have dozens of future options available for me because of it than work shitlaw and be stuck--not even considering the prestige factor as well.

Do what you want to do, bud. If you want to attend Cooley Law and try to beat the odds than more power to you; however, you shouldn't be posting threads implying that this is better than that. It is not only an ignorant attempt to boost your self-esteem as it shows your insecurities as well.

Hey, I ddin't put quotes around that part in my OP (I will now after this msg), but that wasn't me who wrote that!! I was quoting the guy in antoher thraed.

I run a plaintiffs firm. Whether you practice civil or criminal, cases DO NOT just fall in your lap. A lawyer who works for himself/herself has to be a good business man above all else. You just cannot fill every working hour with billable work when you are starting out. It is impossible. This guy is living a pipe dream. He's full of it. Period. He's not lying. He is just delusional.

Even if you are court appointed, there are several other lawyers who are court appointed. They only have so many cases. They distribute those cases out to all the attorneys who are on the "wheel." Sometimes, you get a lot of cases, sometimes, you don't. But it is never a steady stream to where you can run up your revenue to high numbers. If it were that easy, all those lawyers who go to less than prestigious law schools would be doing it. And if they all did it, there wouldn't be enough cases to go around for everyone to make that kind of money.

utlaw2007 wrote:I run a plaintiffs firm. Whether you practice civil or criminal, cases DO NOT just fall in your lap. A lawyer who works for himself/herself has to be a good business man above all else. You just cannot fill every working hour with billable work when you are starting out. It is impossible. This guy is living a pipe dream. He's full of it. Period. He's not lying. He is just delusional.

Even if you are court appointed, there are several other lawyers who are court appointed. They only have so many cases. They distribute those cases out to all the attorneys who are on the "wheel." Sometimes, you get a lot of cases, sometimes, you don't. But it is never a steady stream to where you can run up your revenue to high numbers. If it were that easy, all those lawyers who go to less than prestigious law schools would be doing it. And if they all did it, there wouldn't be enough cases to go around for everyone to make that kind of money.

This guy was possibly the most annoying poster from TLS, but what you guys think about his responses in thread?"

is anyone gonna actually tell me how I cannot get court appointed cases my first year out of law school? if so, please do tell... you might then discourage me from going to the shit hole known as cooley... if you can't convince me why this isn't possible, however, i will realize that you are just virgins that don't have a life outside of academia... and I have a 1.2 million trust fund... so i got the funds for law school without having to take loans out like you poor schlubs.. and ill have plenty of capital to open a business

FUCKING READ U POOR MIDDLE CLASS IDIOTS... I SAID COURT APPOINTED CASES, AND THEN GET A PRIVATE OBTAINED CLIENT EVERY NOW AND THEN.. U REALIZE COURT APPOINTED PAYS 75 AN HOUR U FUCKSHIT... 75X40 = 150 PLUS K

.....and.....

yes but not a one has told me how I cannot get court appointed cases... and bill the state at 75/hour for 40 hours a week... the courts are OVERFLOWING with poor people like you that have to borrow money for school... there will be plenty of clients that i can bill 75 an hour for.. PLUS, I MAKE UP HOW MANY HOURS I WORK ON EACH CASE

Are the courts really overflowing with poor people who need lawyers like the OP? Also, why wouldn't Duke or UNC grads in North Carolina be lined up to take these sorts of cases if they can make that much money?.....Well, I guess this was an older thread (early 2010)..maybe the super recession was just getting bad in NC (so top law school grads didn't look there)?...I dunno.

You can have that career right out of a mediocre law school (any law school, really) and become a millionaire without working many hours. You can also win the Megabucks jackpot.

The chances are about the same.

Are the courts really overflowing with poor people who need lawyers like the OP? Also, why wouldn't Duke or UNC grads in North Carolina be lined up to take these sorts of cases if they can make that much money?.....Well, I guess this was an older thread (early 2010)..maybe the super recession was just getting bad in NC (so top law school grads didn't look there)?...I dunno.

I think the bolded kinda answers your question... I do know people who have started out taking court-appointed work (not in NC, but a similar state). They weren't able to get full-time work from it simply because the courts wouldn't give newbies that many cases. They also weren't necessarily complex cases that you could get a lot of hours out of. Plus, that poster completely overlooked the cost of overhead if you're a solo (doesn't have to be very high, but it's there), and the fact that you don't bill all the time you actually work. Finally, it's worth noting that not all states use such a system - my state has a centralized professional PD's office that takes these cases. Attorneys are generally only court-appointed if the PD has a conflict with the client. Then, like in the federal system, the court tends to appoint people who have at least some criminal defense experience, who usually run a criminal defense practice and take the defense appointments as part of their work (this is the CJA panel of attorneys. I suspose some might be able to live off their court appointments but most I see don't seem to).

That guy does NOT represent the Cooley community. No one here actts like that.