Top Law Schools

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer

unemployment rate of 2.1%, goes to show what a joke US News is

Seems reasonable. The half of JDs that don't get legal jobs are not 'lawyers,' they are 'financial analysts,' 'engineers,' 'barristas' or whatever. A J.D. is not much worse than many other degree choices, and is MUCH better than many degree choices (see most phds.) The problem only comes when dumbfucks pay $300,000 for a 30% chance from GGU.

This is really absurd, and like you said, it just goes to show what a complete TTT publication US News is.

SaintsTheMetal wrote:Seems reasonable. The half of JDs that don't get legal jobs are not 'lawyers,' they are 'financial analysts,' 'engineers,' 'barristas' or whatever. A J.D. is not much worse than many other degree choices, and is MUCH better than many degree choices (see most phds.) The problem only comes when dumbfucks pay $300,000 for a 30% chance from GGU.

This is a far too rosy outlook. The cost of a JD, coupled with its huge risks and growing disparity in earning potential between people at the top and people everywhere else, makes it far worse than most degrees. The problem doesn't "only" occur by going to expensive crappy schools. The problem exists all over. It would be stupid to pay 100k to go to most lower T1s and T2s right now.

romothesavior wrote: This is a far too rosy outlook. The cost of a JD, coupled with its huge risks and growing disparity in earning potential between people at the top and people everywhere else, makes it far worse than most degrees. The problem doesn't "only" occur by going to expensive crappy schools. The problem exists all over. It would be stupid to pay 100k to go to most lower T1s and T2s right now.

I think TLS really fails to consider the alternatives. I'd take a full ride to a T2 school over most other degrees. How many BA people are getting jobs paying 40k? Not many..definitely less than 50%, based on my TTT UG it sure seems like <1%. BS in sciences? Zero jobs there, gotta get some funding and do a PhD if you want a chance...even after finishing their PhD people are GLAD to get a job paying 40-50k, with maybe 10% (probably less) getting high paying research positions or tenured faculty positions. The only things I know of more stable than a JD would be a BSEE (forget most other engineering majors though without a masters,) Computer Science, Nursing, or MD.

Sure, there is a chance of graduating a T14 and making a "measly" 40k, or un-employed. But there is an astronomical chance of finishing your 5+ year PhD in theoretical physics or whatever with absolutely no employment to show for it. If you're lucky you'll get some post-docs 40k and then be unemployed a few years later, trying to get some industry to bite on your crazy research you've spent the last 10 years of your life on

edit: TL;DR isn't the only degree with gloomy outlooks for people not at the top of their game. http://www.economist.com/node/17723223? ... leacademic

I don't understand how the USnews statistics of their salary can be accurate.

How is median 113k? I'm not entirely sure of the numbers but my guess is that Big law jobs make up an extremely small portion of the legal field. How is the 25th percentile 75k? Because if 50% of the class goes into another field (like Starbucks) and that 50% earns an average salary for 40K, that would most likely be the median. The stats showing that the 25th percentile makes 75k doesn't make sense to me. That means that half or more than half of the 50% of law students who can't find jobs are making 75k or more.

Am I reading this incorrectly? I admit this is only a cursory glance and hopefully someone can asses my interpretation.

senorhosh wrote:I don't understand how the USnews statistics of their salary can be accurate.

How is median 113k? I'm not entirely sure of the numbers but my guess is that Big law jobs make up an extremely small portion of the legal field. How is the 25th percentile 75k? Because if 50% of the class goes into another field (like Starbucks) and that 50% earns an average salary for 40K, that would most likely be the median. The stats showing that the 25th percentile makes 75k doesn't make sense to me. That means that half or more than half of the 50% of law students who can't find jobs are making 75k or more.

Am I reading this incorrectly? I admit this is only a cursory glance and hopefully someone can asses my interpretation.

That's of all lawyers not starting salary, so I believe it.

NoodleyOne wrote:

senorhosh wrote:I don't understand how the USnews statistics of their salary can be accurate.

How is median 113k? I'm not entirely sure of the numbers but my guess is that Big law jobs make up an extremely small portion of the legal field. How is the 25th percentile 75k? Because if 50% of the class goes into another field (like Starbucks) and that 50% earns an average salary for 40K, that would most likely be the median. The stats showing that the 25th percentile makes 75k doesn't make sense to me. That means that half or more than half of the 50% of law students who can't find jobs are making 75k or more.

Am I reading this incorrectly? I admit this is only a cursory glance and hopefully someone can asses my interpretation.

That's of all lawyers not starting salary, so I believe it.

Oh.
TLS has me thinking that your starting salary = your salary 10 year down the road - $20k (unless big law).

This is what I don't understand. Why are people even going to get an education if they want a job, go get skills. Go apprentice and move into the sales for a electrical contractor / mechanical contractor / low voltage installation / integrator / alarm company etc. and make 6 figures. You won't go into debt and your career earnings + interest will be way higher than not working for 7 years and accumulating debt and your job won't be outsourceable. Most of these positions can't find people who are hardworking and intelligent so they settle for lesser candidates. Funny thing is that the trade professions can't find enough people to fill their ranks so their salaries / hrly wage are now higher than advanced degree holders but the advanced degree holders won't take those jobs because they aren't prestigious or glamorous. Cold hard cash > Glamor.

typ3 wrote:This is what I don't understand. Why are people even going to get an education if they want a job, go get skills. Go apprentice and move into the sales for a electrical contractor / mechanical contractor / low voltage installation / integrator / alarm company etc. and make 6 figures. You won't go into debt and your career earnings + interest will be way higher than not working for 7 years and accumulating debt and your job won't be outsourceable. Most of these positions can't find people who are hardworking and intelligent so they settle for lesser candidates. Funny thing is that the trade professions can't find enough people to fill their ranks so their salaries / hrly wage are now higher than advanced degree holders but the advanced degree holders won't take those jobs because they aren't prestigious or glamorous. Cold hard cash > Glamor.

So you are getting an education for the learning? You must be severely disappointed by law school.

senorhosh wrote:I don't understand how the USnews statistics of their salary can be accurate.

How is median 113k? I'm not entirely sure of the numbers but my guess is that Big law jobs make up an extremely small portion of the legal field. How is the 25th percentile 75k? Because if 50% of the class goes into another field (like Starbucks) and that 50% earns an average salary for 40K, that would most likely be the median. The stats showing that the 25th percentile makes 75k doesn't make sense to me. That means that half or more than half of the 50% of law students who can't find jobs are making 75k or more.

Am I reading this incorrectly? I admit this is only a cursory glance and hopefully someone can asses my interpretation.

You either spend way too much time on tls or are extremely pessimistic.

Desert Fox wrote:

typ3 wrote:This is what I don't understand. Why are people even going to get an education if they want a job, go get skills. Go apprentice and move into the sales for a electrical contractor / mechanical contractor / low voltage installation / integrator / alarm company etc. and make 6 figures. You won't go into debt and your career earnings + interest will be way higher than not working for 7 years and accumulating debt and your job won't be outsourceable. Most of these positions can't find people who are hardworking and intelligent so they settle for lesser candidates. Funny thing is that the trade professions can't find enough people to fill their ranks so their salaries / hrly wage are now higher than advanced degree holders but the advanced degree holders won't take those jobs because they aren't prestigious or glamorous. Cold hard cash > Glamor.

So you are getting an education for the learning? You must be severely disappointed by law school.

I am in law school because a JD from an ABA school is required to sit for the bar. I need to pass the bar to take over a family business.

If I did not have this opportunity and were not going down this path I would have avoided college completely.

typ3 wrote:This is what I don't understand. Why are people even going to get an education if they want a job, go get skills. Go apprentice and move into the sales for a electrical contractor / mechanical contractor / low voltage installation / integrator / alarm company etc. and make 6 figures. You won't go into debt and your career earnings + interest will be way higher than not working for 7 years and accumulating debt and your job won't be outsourceable. Most of these positions can't find people who are hardworking and intelligent so they settle for lesser candidates. Funny thing is that the trade professions can't find enough people to fill their ranks so their salaries / hrly wage are now higher than advanced degree holders but the advanced degree holders won't take those jobs because they aren't prestigious or glamorous. Cold hard cash > Glamor.

This is a really strange myth that has been going around for a long time now. Yes, there are some former tradesmen that go into sales and make six-figures but they are few and far between. Basically the equivalent of the guy who starts in retail and works his way up to a six-figure store management post. In addition, the vast majority of actually tradespeople are making in the $40-$60k/yr and some of them working pretty hard to get it. How do I know? 1) I used to work for a huge warranty/restoration company and was involved in setting their rates. 2) Half my family is involved in this kind of work. The idea that we are all missing out on this easy track to a comfortable life is laughable. Those guys are increasingly under margin pressure, dealing with a competitive space and many struggle. There are some that have found that have found the magic formula but most aren't even close.

Warranty restoration company that set rates.

This is the legal equivalent as a firm doing insurance defense work. These people always make beans. Anyone working for insurance companies will make beans because the insurance company always is pressing for more profit.

FWIW I worked in undergrad doing fire testing for a low voltage integrator / alarm contractor until the laws changed in my state requiring NICET certification and I was paid $25 an hour my first summer, $26.50 the next, and $29 an hour + benefits my last summer for testing fire alarms in schools / apartments / hospitals etc. This was in a rural city with a population of 160k metro (220k).

Depending on your state, apartment complex / schools / hospitals / public spaces / offices must be tested every quarter. The Sr. tech I was under was making $36 an hour and had been with the business for 7 years. Senior installers were paid $39. Cutting and running Cat 5's / low voltage wiring / installing HID's, cameras, fire alarms in a hospital / school is easy work. I'm guessing the problem with your restoration work is that you didn't have service contracts.

We had service contracts where we tested the systems / devices every quarter or 6 months. So every time the business made a sale they increased their monthly recurring revenue. It is a slower buck, but it is stable and after 10-15 years you can start making upper 6 lower 7 figures as an owner.

The salesman almost all made 100-160k with 5 weeks paid vacation + phone / computer / 40 hr weeks. A few salesmen made 200-350k depending on the year and what building projects were being done. Obviously they made more if there was a new school / hospital / or food manufacturing plant was under construction.

These numbers are still accurate ITE, I'm interning and doing litigation for the business and the discovery documents I've looked through show a 6.5-8% growth rate per year with the downturn. However, I would wager that this next year will be double digit growth for the company since it is a feeding frenzy for security and access control with the Sandy Hook incident and the accelerating demand for smart phone integrated home automation and security.

I would agree that at least in an absolute sense a J.D. is a suboptimal choice. However, if the only other choice (without getting a second B.A., etc.) to increase earning potential is to get a Ph.D. in social sciences/humanities, then I would argue that a J.D. is definitely preferable. As someone who spent a lot of time researching the path to becoming a professor of something like philosophy, I will gladly take a J.D. from a top 14 school at close to sticker over a Ph.D. from a top school with some stipend money; the path to becoming tenured is ridiculously competitive, on the order of hundreds of applications for a single teaching position at a mediocre school, and the lifetime earnings of someone with a J.D. from a T-14 are on average much higher than those of someone with a Ph.D. from even a top school.

It all depends on your opportunity costs.