Missing Big Law = Poverty? Forum

[SuperCerealBrah]

The bolded is not necessarily true at all. Also, citation needed there.

The problem is, the type of firms that start you at 45K a year don't exactly have a ton of room for advancement. You don't just work your way up - you work for someone who will church and burn you until the wheels fall off for 45-50K a year (often without benefits) until you can't take it anymore and quit - with no exit options.

That may often be true. But, after a lot of experience and a solid client network, there is nothing stopping somebody from going solo and brining in their own fees.

What kind of client base do you expect to build by doing $500 a pop wills and DUI defense?

Successful solos and small firm practitioners likely would have been successful at whatever they did. Being a great lawyer and being having a great business mind are not the same.

It's not like starting out at a small firm means you're fucked for life - but you need to land with a quality small firm with room for advancement or hope you're a great entrepreneur, because you're not going to have the in-house counsel/counsel or partner at a small/medium firm exit option without reputable vault experience on your resume.

It's not impossible, but the deck is certainly stacked against you.

Your second paragraph is OK. However, to the bolded, so you think that all people not in biglaw just do $500 a pop wills and DUI defense. My god, I am sorry but you people are ignorant as fuck. You realize a dui defense attorney can do OK pretty OK right? And law IS a business. Some lawyers like to pretend its not and that it is some "noble" calling. It is not. Guess what, you have to bring in business. You don't know how to sell, then you will starve. This is the essence of a what a business. Even if a big firm, if you can't make it rain, then you are just labor they will eventually get rid of. Pretty much every real life attorney I have ever spoken with in my life (biglaw and small law alike) has said this.

But yea, everybody here is right. People don't succeed defending duis. There are also no successful Trusts and Estates lawyers anywhere. Law is dead and 99% of people will be on food stamps and never amount to anything.

[SuperCerealBrah]

It wasn't absolutist. It's fucking retarded to take a generalization like "people making 50k aren't ending up at 160k" and start frothing at the mouth because there are exceptions. Idiocy. Did you really, sincerely think that I believe no lawyer who started out at 50k has ever made over 160k? If so, you're an idiot. If not, you're a pedantic idiot.

This. It's about all I have left to say.

lol All I have to say is both of you are idiots as well. You're a mod, which is good because I would like you to just ban this account. I have no more time for arguing about retarded things online with anonymous people. Respectable people shouldn't even spend time on blogs like this. So ban me, therefore I can get back to doing real life stuff. Thank you.

[SchopenhauerFTW]

Corporate America is killing the legal profession. Before you know it everyone with a JD will be sitting in a doc review mill. Just say NO to corporate law.

[vanwinkle]

lol All I have to say is both of you are idiots as well. You're a mod, which is good because I would like you to just ban this account. I have no more time for arguing about retarded things online with anonymous people. Respectable people shouldn't even spend time on blogs like this. So ban me, therefore I can get back to doing real life stuff. Thank you.

That's a negative, Ghost Rider.

If you're so "respectable" then self-manage your own time.

[SuperCerealBrah]

Your second paragraph is OK. However, to the bolded, so you think that all people not in biglaw just do $500 a pop wills and DUI defense. My god, I am sorry but you people are ignorant as fuck. You realize a dui defense attorney can do OK pretty OK right? And law IS a business. Some lawyers like to pretend its not and that it is some "noble" calling. It is not. Guess what, you have to bring in business. You don't know how to sell, then you will starve. This is the essence of a what a business. Even if a big firm, if you can't make it rain, then you are just labor they will eventually get rid of. Pretty much every real life attorney I have ever spoken with in my life (biglaw and small law alike) has said this.

But yea, everybody here is right. People don't succeed defending duis. There are also no successful Trusts and Estates lawyers anywhere. Law is dead and 99% of people will be on food stamps and never amount to anything.

wut

a lot of small firm work has been replaced by LegalZoom. Of course you can be successful, it's not all or nothing. But, again, small firm work is more of a one and done type thing with clients.

Legalzoom also creates a lot of messes that need to be cleaned up by attorneys. Trust me, I know this personally. I am not engaging IAFG or vanwinkle anymore and I apologize if I took out some of my frustration towards them on you. Unfortunately, vanwinkle won't ban me so I guess I will just have to exercise self control on not coming here.

Before I ultimately do stop coming to this site, I just wanted to end this on a positive note. It is not always gloom and doom. And here is some more anecdotal evidence from none other than the most freaking gloom and doom lawyer website out there...

http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=34023

http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=33994

Plus, a fair number of people I know down here in NOLA have gotten similar outcomes.

Good outcomes do happen people and they don't always have to be biglaw. It may not happen in a majority of cases, but does not mean it is super rare either. This is why I get so freaking irritated with some of the comments that pop up on this site. Later y'all.

[vanwinkle]

I am not engaging IAFG or vanwinkle anymore and I apologize if I took out some of my frustration towards them on you. Unfortunately, vanwinkle won't ban me so I guess I will just have to exercise self control on not coming here.

LOL, passive-aggressive much?

Of course it's not all doom and gloom, btw. I have a number of friends from a range of law schools who have found paid post-graduation employment. It's possible to go to law school and then get a job, and manage your massive loans using things like IBR, if you're smart and fortunate.

It's just not something people can count on, or maybe as good as they're hoping for going in, which people deserve to be warned about.

[scifiguy]

The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

[AllDangle]

The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

According to chart in the linked story Lewis & Clark placed 71.2% of '12 grads in jobs requiring law degrees...

[IAFG]

The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

Those bimodal salary charts also have a pretty low response rate.

I just saw a new grad on another message board asking for advice on how to negotiate up her salary as a first year associate at a small firm. Her boss had offered $20k.

[scifiguy]

Those bimodal salary charts also have a pretty low response rate.

I just saw a new grad on another message board asking for advice on how to negotiate up her salary as a first year associate at a small firm. Her boss had offered $20k.

Please tell me you're kidding about that small firm salary! How common is that at a small firm?

At minimum wage-ish $8/hour, you make $15K/year.

That's like working at McDonald's as a cashier.

Even full-time waitthressses make more than $20K/year.

[hume85]

The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

Those bimodal salary charts also have a pretty low response rate.

I just saw a new grad on another message board asking for advice on how to negotiate up her salary as a first year associate at a small firm. Her boss had offered $20k.

You're breaking your own rule here.

[IAFG]

The problem is no so much that other jobs don't pay enough it's that other jobs are scarce. Government hiring has been very slow. Most importantly with regard to your question, the ideal of a midsize law firm that pays $80,000 to freshly-minted JDs is very rare. Midsize and small law firms do not have the resources to train new JDs and thus usually only hire experienced attorneys.

Here's a good article on law firm salaries: http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/ ... wyer-jobs/. It will confirm that your $80,000 a year salary is very, very rare.

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

Those bimodal salary charts also have a pretty low response rate.

I just saw a new grad on another message board asking for advice on how to negotiate up her salary as a first year associate at a small firm. Her boss had offered $20k.

You're breaking your own rule here.

What rule? I'd literally never heard of an offer that low before.

[hume85]

It just occurred to me that these figures that TLS'ers keep citing about the bi-modal distribution of law grad salaries ....they are for reported incomes of people working in law. Am I wrong?

I read that 50% of law graduates actually did not land a legal job.

What salary info. is there for people working outside of law? Do they tend to make around $45-50K? I've read some TLS'ers saying they know people who graduated law school and work at like Apple Bee's or doing bartending.

What about the 50% that don't get a legal job?

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... ing_f.html
This was a look at some of those folks who were part of that "other 50%."

Thhere's a video clip of a woman who makes less than she did before going to law school.

Those bimodal salary charts also have a pretty low response rate.

I just saw a new grad on another message board asking for advice on how to negotiate up her salary as a first year associate at a small firm. Her boss had offered $20k.

You're breaking your own rule here.

What rule? I'd literally never heard of an offer that low before.

It was an anecdote, and it wasn't really a situation where an anecdote would pass for good evidence.