Most Improving Law Schools Forum

[stratocophic]

ASU and I am not being sarcastic.

Over WUSTL's dead body. Our scholarship dollars will blot out the sun, and splitters will do the WUSTL in the shade


Cast, in order of appearance:
ASU
WUSTL

[dingbat]

UC Irvine has the potential to break T20

no it doesn't
At most it'll pull an ASU

[Pate]

If you are speculating on a down-the-road breakthrough surprise, it would have to be Florida. Giant population with several big cities – three NFL teams to boot. At some point its economy will rebound and Florida will be a major player. Whether or not it’s UF, FSU or UM that jumps up first, is anyone’s guess.

[Bildungsroman]

If you are speculating on a down-the-road breakthrough surprise, it would have to be Florida. Giant population with several big cities – three NFL teams to boot. At some point its economy will rebound and Florida will be a major player. Whether or not it’s UF, FSU or UM that jumps up first, is anyone’s guess.

I tried to think of a sufficiently clever way to insult this post but couldn't come up with anything, so just know that your prediction is bad and you should feel bad.


Also, what possible significance is there to the "T20?" That's not a real designation. If ASU or UF or Penn jumped above rank 20 it wouldn't mean anything because USNews is a relative ranking system and it doesn't take a high-quality school to leapfrog such preftigious institutions as Indiana-Bloomington, Fordham, BU, etc.

[rad lulz]

If you are speculating on a down-the-road breakthrough surprise, it would have to be Florida. Giant population with several big cities – three NFL teams to boot. At some point its economy will rebound and Florida will be a major player. Whether or not it’s UF, FSU or UM that jumps up first, is anyone’s guess.

get in on BIGCONCUSSIONLAW before it's hot.

[dingbat]

Why is Minnesota #19 ahead of GWU, WUSTL, ND? That's the one that I cannot get a grip with.

Also, the only reason I can think that you're surprised by this is you're conflating lay prestige with quality of a law school.

That could be true, but I thought that's what the rankings were all about: conflating lay prestige.

No, lay prestige is not affected by the rankings.

What the rankings are about is a bunch of 0Ls getting themselves in a tizzy about where to apply (St. John's is 79 and Hofstra is 87!) and law schools having a marketing tool (we're now number two for interplanetary imminent domain law)

[Pate]

If you are speculating on a down-the-road breakthrough surprise, it would have to be Florida. Giant population with several big cities – three NFL teams to boot. At some point its economy will rebound and Florida will be a major player. Whether or not it’s UF, FSU or UM that jumps up first, is anyone’s guess.

I tried to think of a sufficiently clever way to insult this post but couldn't come up with anything - - -

Maybe after 11,000 posts you just ran out of material.

The bitch of it is, when you go to UG in tropical Florida you really do not suddenly want to pack it up to travel north. It does not make sense that Florida does not have a LS inside the top 20.

[Br3v]

Every time I see the title of this thread I feel it is worded oddly

[minnbills]

It does not make sense that Florida does not have a LS inside the top 20.

You're missing the point

[dingbat]

It does not make sense that Florida does not have a LS inside the top 20.

How does it not make sense?
Think about it - after you knock off the major players you've already knocked off at least half the spots. The remainder of the top 20 feed to major markets or are otherwise untouchable, making most of the list a no-brainer, with a number of good schools fighting for the scraps (spots 19 and 20)

[minnbills]

(spots 19 and 20)

damnit stop shitting on UMN!

[Pate]

It does not make sense that Florida does not have a LS inside the top 20.

You're missing the point

Yes, that happens all too frequently.

UF, FSU, UM certainly have very good law schools and their improvement (in the rankings) will likely come about, in part, due to their location. GA has Emory, Texas has UT, etc., etc., FL not so much.

[Bildungsroman]

UF, FSU, UM certainly have very good law schools and their improvement (in the rankings) will likely come about, in part, due to their location. GA has Emory, Texas has UT, etc., etc., FL not so much .

1. UF, FSU, and UM do not have very good law schools.
2. what magical change will precipitate the sudden rise in stature of the Florida schools? Keep in mind that UF, FSU, and Miami have always been located in Florida, so simply repeating "Florida is so nice; we have the Jaguars!" is meaningless.

[RedBirds2011]

UF, FSU, UM certainly have very good law schools and their improvement (in the rankings) will likely come about, in part, due to their location. GA has Emory, Texas has UT, etc., etc., FL not so much .

1. UF, FSU, and UM do not have very good law schools.
2. what magical change will precipitate the sudden rise in stature of the Florida schools? Keep in mind that UF, FSU, and Miami have always been located in Florida, so simply repeating "Florida is so nice; we have the Jaguars!" is meaningless.

Florida as a state having a double digit number of law schools total really hurts.

[romothesavior]

So... droves or no?

[dingbat]

(spots 19 and 20)

damnit stop shitting on UMN!

I don't mean to shit on UMN, but, relatively speaking, I'd say that their spot in the T20 isn't as obvious as, say, UCLA;
It is very comparable in terms of market and national prestige to WUSTL, Washington and Emory.

GW's position at 20 is far more surprising - the DC market is not that big, GULC is the dominant regional and there is fierce competition from the national schools.

Of the top 25, only W&L is and GW are not either major national schools or the dominant school in a decent sized market

[Pate]

I thought the point of this thread was to look into our crystal ball and speculate what changes could occur down-the-road.

[dingbat]

I thought the point of this thread was to look into our crystal ball and speculate what changes could occur down-the-road.

Then why did you mention those schools? They do not fall under the category of could

[Bildungsroman]

(spots 19 and 20)

damnit stop shitting on UMN!

I don't mean to shit on UMN, but, relatively speaking, I'd say that their spot in the T20 isn't as obvious as, say, UCLA;
It is very comparable in terms of market and national prestige to WUSTL, Washington and Emory.

GW's position at 20 is far more surprising - the DC market is not that big, GULC is the dominant regional and there is fierce competition from the national schools.

It's not surprising that lousy schools make it that high in the rankings. What would you have replace GWU? At that level all the schools you're talking about are more regional and less prestigious anyway; it's not like there are a lot of schools better than GWU just waiting in the 20s and 30s. This is why a relative rating system like USNews is misleading.

[Tom Joad]

If you are speculating on a down-the-road breakthrough surprise, it would have to be Florida. Giant population with several big cities – three NFL teams to boot. At some point its economy will rebound and Florida will be a major player. Whether or not it’s UF, FSU or UM that jumps up first, is anyone’s guess.

When I first saw this thread I asked myself why Florida doesn't have a top school. I guess there are reasons. But I am not worried about them right now.

[Pate]

For those of you who went to UG at a university that had a LS, did you ever check it out. If so, was it that much different from the higher ranked LS you are attending now?

[dingbat]

(spots 19 and 20)

damnit stop shitting on UMN!

I don't mean to shit on UMN, but, relatively speaking, I'd say that their spot in the T20 isn't as obvious as, say, UCLA;
It is very comparable in terms of market and national prestige to WUSTL, Washington and Emory.

GW's position at 20 is far more surprising - the DC market is not that big, GULC is the dominant regional and there is fierce competition from the national schools.

It's not surprising that lousy schools make it that high in the rankings. What would you have replace GWU? At that level all the schools you're talking about are more regional and less prestigious anyway; it's not like there are a lot of schools better than GWU just waiting in the 20s and 30s. This is why a relative rating system like USNews is misleading.

GW has tough competition from BC, BU and Fordham, which are comparable schools.

I think schools should really be ranked in bands, rather than in numerical order.
HYS is agreeable at the top.
The rest of the T14 (maybe subdivided into groups)
UCLA, USC, Vandy and UT next
Then two separate bands, one with top regionals in midsize markets, like WUSTL, Washington, Minnesota, Emory, and another with second-stringers in major markets (BC, BU, GW, Fordham, W&L?)
After that perhaps top regionals in smaller markets, like ASU, Indiana and Alabama.

But, to be honest, once you get out of the top few national schools, everything becomes regional. Who cares how Alabama compares to BC?
The rankings don't really have a useful purpose, either you go to a top national school, or you compare the schools in your target region.

[rad lulz]

So... droves or no?

T20 = mottles n baubles, OCIs IN DROVES. Below that? Debtor's prison.

[PDaddy]

10 years from now, what do you think the T20 will look like? Will it have the same schools shuffled around different, or will there be some schools that break into the T20 or T14 that aren't currently ranked that high? What do you think and why?

Rankings = Musical Chairs.

I don't know why much would change. They haven't changed over the last 10 years, and that includes the University of Washington being back in the top-25. I hope that in 10 years there will be several ranking systems or a new system that incorporates the best methodologies, or - at the very least - the USNWR rankings will be gone.

If outputs (lawyer success) and scholarly impact were weighted equally to input (GPA/LSAT), you could then make arguments for about 25 schools ranked below #20. I have always believed that the ideal ranking system would include the methodologies of USNWR, Leiter's Education Quality Rankings, Princeton Review, Lawdragon, and Law School 100. I am not optomistic that anything will be different, aside from one random school making the top-20.

I do agree that Irvine may be there, as might GWU and/or Fordham and/or Emory...never understood Minnesota at #19. I understood Illinois at #16 and Hastings at #23, but never Minnesota at #19.

I think Irvine has a shot. Are there any good schools planning on starting a law school?

I'll tell you who should: MIT, Dartmouth, Johns Hopkins, Brown, Rice, Purdue, Miami-Ohio, GA-Tech, Davidson, UCSD, Carnegie Mellon, Spelman, and a few others. For every new one we start, we should close at least three bad ones...get it down to about 130 ABA approved law schools total. That would be a huge improvement. Irvine was DEFINITELY a good start.

[enigmabk]

Don't irvines current gpa/lsat medians put it in the top25 range?