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Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:48 pm**

DAMN!

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:51 pm**

Ask a real lawyer.

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:04 pm**

rad lulz wrote:Ask a real lawyer.

What kind of lawyer? If I e-mail one online will I get a basic answer or will they want $150/hr?

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:08 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:40 pm**

rad lulz wrote:
fit2practice wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Ask a real lawyer.
What kind of lawyer? If I e-mail one online will I get a basic answer or will they want $150/hr?
A C&F lawyer.

lol they cost money. Why in the world would it be free.

What search term should I use to find a C&F Lawyer, I tried using google search engine to find "[My State] C&F Attorneys" and other similar term and it only brings up C&F requirements, news stories, etc.

Also, is there anything on my list that I am unnessesarily freaking out about? For example, does any state bar care what I did when I was 8?

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:18 pm**

I am worried I have military obligations that I never fufilled. Would this effect me?

I may be speaking out of term, but I kind of don't think this will affect you.

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:00 pm**

Everything there is on your Juvenile record... which at least in California is sealed and you aren't required to disclose to anyone, and I thought other states were similar.. I don't see how any of this would affect you

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:10 pm**

My first thought was that everything on this list was of the following form: "Here's some bad thing I did. Here's why it's not my fault." While nothing on your list seemed like a deal breaker to me, I suspect you'll get further in life by taking some ownership of your actions.

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:15 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:41 pm**

R86 wrote:
SaintsTheMetal wrote:Everything there is on your Juvenile record... which at least in California is sealed and you aren't required to disclose to anyone, and I thought other states were similar.. I don't see how any of this would affect you

National Conference of Bar Examiners wrote:Application instructions require you to "nclude all disciplinary actions, charges, or convictions, other than for minor traffic violations. If you answer "yes" to any of these questions, attach a detailed explanation giving dates, locations, the nature of the charge, the disposition of the case, and any sanction imposed. You must provide a complete record of all instances in which you have been arrested or taken into custody, or accused, formally or informally, of the violation of a law. Include instances that have been expunged by order of the court, as well as juvenile offenses, whether or not the records are sealed. You should disclose each instance even if the charges were dismissed; you were acquitted; adjudication was withheld; a conviction was reversed, set aside, or vacated; the record was sealed or expunged; or you participated in a pre-trial intervention program. If you have any questions about whether an incident or charge should be disclosed, we suggest that you err on the side of full disclosure. Failure to provide information is often more serious than the acts that gave rise to the sanctions imposed."

How do I even get a hold of my juvenile records? If they're sealed/expunged, how can I find them so I even have the information to report it on law school applications/c&f file? Or should I just say: arrested in 1998 after parents called police following dispute...and will that do?

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:38 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:40 pm**

Major childhood problems, mostly before age 10. I had lots of disciplinary problems in grade school, I have been expelled from two schools in 2nd and 3rd grade. I attribute it mostly to not fitting in with the other kids and acting out. I've seen probably a dozen child psychologists by the time I was 10 and had been on everything and diagnosed with almost everything. I guess I just matured and grew out of it, because you really couldn't tell now.

Just lol. Calm down. These are not criminal offenses and you were in grade school.

Was arrested at age 12 for starting a fire with another kid. We were hanging out at a house that was under construction, he spilled a flammable substance and lit it on fire (I told him not to but he didn't listen). We ran away after we heard sirens. The fire was actually very small and did >$20 in damage, mostly just scorched a piece of plywood. My family actually knew the owner of the house very well and I apologized. I remember being guilty of trespassing and not actually starting the fire. I don't even know how to look into this to find official records.

You'll have to report this, but it's not going to be a bar to admission.

Also when I was 12, my parents would threaten to call the police over me not listening or arguing with them. Looking back, it was actually really ridiculous, they mainly used the local police to humilate me because they knew neighborhood kids would see the cop cars outside my house and me being led out there. None of the incidents actually escalated to any level that would necessitate police involvement, it was all over verbal arguments or me saying that I would leave the house and walk to the mall or something. I was formally arrested once and taken to a juvie holding cell where my dad picked me up from an hour later....just to teach me a lesson I guess at the expense of the taxpayers.

You'll have to report being arrested, but this shouldn't raise any real concerns either.

When I was 16 or 17 I got into a verbal argument with a teacher over something I did in a computer lab. I had changed the desktop background to a funny image I found online. The image contained a gun, although this was not my motivation for doing it. The teacher called the police, not even because of the "gun" but just because I had changed the wallpaper on the PC. Police showed up, talked to me for a while, and then a teacher called the school board which said they wanted me arrested for "tampering," like I had hacked the computer or something. I was taken down to the police station and my parents picked me up 30 min later. I did some diversion program and had 3 months probabtion. In my defense, the teacher was a complete d-bag who was trying dissuade me from not complying in the future but I don't think any Bar admission board would go for that explanation.

Again, if this lead to an arrest you'll have to disclose. But again, this is by no means a big deal.

When i was 18, I didn't have much of a social life and hung out with any degenerate group I was accepted into. Some kids knew I had a car so I was in. One night while hanging out at some house, another kid basically coerced my car keys from me, he basically took them out of my hand, and said he was borrowing my car to "get some smokes." He took off with some 14 year old girl too. An hour or two goes by and my car and the kids are gone. Later the girl comes back and I ask where my car is and she goes "what car?" Anyways, I find out the girl was the one driving and my car is trashed, a tire is completely flat when I find it on some side street. Me and some other kid are trying to change the tire before the cops show up. Apparently the girl drive the car onto some ladies lawn and did damage. I didn't know this and told the cops I was driving and hit a pothole (for some idiotic reason I felt compelled to cover for these kids who stole my car and pushed me around). Anyways, they know the girl was driving and threaten me with obstruction of justice. I tell them the truth and go home that night.

Same response. Disclose and move on.

I have dual citizenship in Israel, I obtained it in 2007 but left in 2008 because i lost my job there and couldnt find another that was english speaking only. I am worried I have military obligations that I never fufilled. Would this effect me?

I'm not sure. Why don't you figure out if you have unfulfilled military obligations? Would you still be obliged to serve if you had to move? I'm not sure where this would come up on a C&F review ... it's not like you were discharged from the military. I'm not sure about this, but I'd wager that you'll be fine.

My last job was doing telemarketing/customer service for some company that sold "work-at-home" scams. I hated working there, we sold BS work at home opportunites that basically cost the customer $100+ (some paid up to $10,000 for BS "training sessions"). It basically took advantage of old, disabled, uneducated, or desperate unemployed people. I was actually fired because I supposedly said on the phone "it doesnt even work," although I disagree that I even said that (even though its true it doesnt work) and leaving at 4:51 PM one day instead of 5 PM after I mistakenly heard we were allowed to leave for the day. I later found out that the state attorney general filed suit against the company and they had to pay people back a lot of $. I am worried that listing this as a place i have worked and/or being fired from there will effect me. At the time I worked here, it was the only job that called me back after sending out 30+ applications.

Soooo you were a lowly employee that got fired from a shady place? You're not going to be denied bar admission for being fired from some hourly job, particularly if you were fired for just leaving early. The bar is more concerned with your ethics ... I don't think there are red flags here. I wouldn't worry about this one.

Also I have a debt in collections for $400 for some clothes I bought in 2009. I got laid off a week later and went back to school and havent worked since, I had forgotten about it but I am now trying to settle it. I dont think I have any other outstanding debts.

This is the biggest deal so far, I think. I don't think it'll lead to denied admission, but it could be a bit of a headache. Financial responsibility is a huge concern during C&F. You're only dealing with $400, which is good. Try and get that settled. Ultimately this could delay your bar admission, but it will not keep you out.

I have gotten 4 speeding tickets in my life, and I have been in a total of 4 vehicle accidents (3 were not my fault and the 4th was me hitting a tree while on an icy road...rearended while stopped at a light, someone cut me off and i fishtailed in a ditch, someone turned right in front of me when they had a stop sign and i hit them)

You need to disclose this stuff if asked about it, but it won't keep you out. Seriously.

Posted: **Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:00 pm**

Just to throw in my unqualified opinion, I don't think any of this stuff is a dealbreaker. At first it seems like a lot of stuff, but like you said most of these things happened before you were 18 and none of them sounds like that big of a deal. To me it just sounds like you lived life, not like you're a dangerous criminal.

Posted: **Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:05 pm**

Instead of C&F you might try googling for ethics or call you local bar association referral service. in NYC you can get a referral from the ABCNY and you can get free ethics opinions on the phone. Your state probably has something like this set up.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:31 pm**

Not issues. Address them, accept responsibility, and you're golden. Unlike most of the TLS dbags, I have actual experience (read: not hearsay elitist bullshit) with serious c&f issues, as does a good friend of mine who is a licensed New York biglaw attorney. He went to law school at a t14 and was licensed, all while serving a 10 year probation stint for an intoxicated assault felony conviction. PM me if you need more info, I'd be happy to fill you in.

Posted: **Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:03 pm**

joshceo wrote:Not issues. Address them, accept responsibility, and you're golden. Unlike most of the TLS dbags, I have actual experience (read: not hearsay elitist bullshit) with serious c&f issues, as does a good friend of mine who is a licensed New York biglaw attorney. He went to law school at a t14 and was licensed, all while serving a 10 year probation stint for an intoxicated assault felony conviction. PM me if you need more info, I'd be happy to fill you in.

Yeesh. You sound bitter.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:49 pm**

homestyle28 wrote:My first thought was that everything on this list was of the following form: "Here's some bad thing I did. Here's why it's not my fault." While nothing on your list seemed like a deal breaker to me, I suspect you'll get further in life by taking some ownership of your actions.

My thoughts exactly. I was fine reading the first half of each incident, but cringed while reading the second half where any responsibility was explained away.

Posted: **Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:15 pm**

NoleMatt wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:My first thought was that everything on this list was of the following form: "Here's some bad thing I did. Here's why it's not my fault." While nothing on your list seemed like a deal breaker to me, I suspect you'll get further in life by taking some ownership of your actions.
My thoughts exactly. I was fine reading the first half of each incident, but cringed while reading the second half where any responsibility was explained away.

I wasn't really trying to explain away responsibility, more like introduce any mitigating factors or anything that explains the incident in more detail that would offer more insight into how/why it happened.

On actually c&f I have no problem admitting complete responsibility, I just don't want it to be interpreted the wrong way.

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:43 pm**

fit2practice wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:
homestyle28 wrote:My first thought was that everything on this list was of the following form: "Here's some bad thing I did. Here's why it's not my fault." While nothing on your list seemed like a deal breaker to me, I suspect you'll get further in life by taking some ownership of your actions.
My thoughts exactly. I was fine reading the first half of each incident, but cringed while reading the second half where any responsibility was explained away.
I wasn't really trying to explain away responsibility, more like introduce any mitigating factors or anything that explains the incident in more detail that would offer more insight into how/why it happened.

On actually c&f I have no problem admitting complete responsibility, I just don't want it to be interpreted the wrong way.

You mean you don't mind admitting complete responsibility, as long as it is interpreted that you weren't actually at fault and merely the victim of a horrible string of things completely out of your control?

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:04 pm**

I don't think it will bar you from admissions. It doesn't look awesome, but the bar actually seems to be getting a little less stringent than it had been in the past. As long as you disclose, I think you'll be OK. A lot of recent C&F fails are for lack of candor or just being such egregious idiots that it was a foreseeable conclusion that something was going to be a roadblock to their careers (400 unpaid parking tickets in 3 years).

Randomnumbers wrote: You mean you don't mind admitting complete responsibility, as long as it is interpreted that you weren't actually at fault and merely the victim of a horrible string of things completely out of your control?

shut up.

we're on the internet. not in court or in front of anyone that matters so that we have to accept this as being somewhat important. none of this is a big deal aside from the $400. none of it reflects on his morality. within his control is BS. a lot of the criminal justice system, especially today as it relates to juveniles, is BS. saying "take responsibility" for actions you committed before 16 is BS. quit pretending like you're on some high horse if you're going to come into c&f topics. no one wants to hear it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:27 am**

Ok i realize this question might be on the wrong message board but since the $400 debt is the only real thing that would cause me problem, how should I deal with it? I have a collections agency offering to settle for $185, which is easy to pay. I sent them an offer to pay the whole thing though in return for having the debt marked paid in full and deleted from my credit history, and in response i get the same initial offer to pay $185.

If I pay $185 instead of the full amount, will that affect C&F?

I would rather pay the full $400 to get this one and only blemish off my credit record but even the collections agency doesn't seem to want it paid back.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:07 pm**

If it's in the hands of the collectors, feel free to take their settlement, but only if you have in writing in advance that such is payment in full and that all of the debt, including associated charges, will be settled as a result. And then if you still feel the need to pay the full $400, send them a check for the full amount. If they're an honest and reputable company (hint, they're not), they'll send you the balance back. But you'll have cleared the debt and have proof that you even sought to clear the entire $400 amount.

If you still don't know how to find a C&F attorney (I skipped a bunch), find out who represents licensed attys in your chosen state with cases before the Bar when they run afoul of the law.

If you want to find something official out prior to completing law school, go to school in Texas or some other state with preliminary investigations (though I don't know of any others). In Texas the investigation process begins 1L first semester.

If you want to find out something unofficial without hiring an attorney (I do not recommend this) you can talk to the bar counselors in your state.

Posted: **Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:46 pm**

also, i forgot to mention before but in addition to being fired from one job, I quit 2 others by not showing up. If I have to put all my employers down, what if they say something bad about me? The job I was fired from was a shady telemarketing business and the jobs I quit were fast food and I had actually given 2 week notice in both cases but said "eff it" and stopped coming in after a week. I doubt the same people who knew me then would even remember me. At one place though, I did have a key to the store and being 18 at the time, I didn't have the guts to face the manager again after being a no-show and turn back in so I gave it to a co-worker I knew outside work to bring in and he actually lost it, my fault I know, but I'm worried they probably changed the locks and safe combos and would say I conspired to do something if asked.

Posted: **Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:30 pm**

- I have dual citizenship in Israel, I obtained it in 2007 but left in 2008 because i lost my job there and couldnt find another that was english speaking only. I am worried I have military obligations that I never fufilled. Would this effect me?

Note: I lived in Israel for two years before returning to the US, but have many close friends from there who made aliyah during their 20s.

Dodging the IDF draft is really only a crime in Israel. If you go back, you'll have problems, and likely will be arrested until you arrange a way to fulfill your period of duty. I've never heard of the Israeli government going after dodgers who go back to the US. I even have friends in the US who were born in Israel and left in order to avoid the army, one of whom was even able to obtain an exemption to go back to Israel and study in a non-Charedi yeshiva for a year.

But let's back up a second. How old were you when you made aliyah? It looks like you were well into your 20s. Check the formulas for length of duty, but if you were 25+ (or if you were married and 23+), you'd have to do at most 3-6 months of miluim (reserve duty), which you could probably get out of by showing up to your tzav rishon and having a bum leg, being flat-footed, etc. And if you were a lot older (27+), you've got absolutely nothing to worry about.

B'sach ha'kol, I wouldn't worry too much about THIS one. And most of the others are also solvable. But save yourself and us, and please stay out of trouble for the next three years.

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