Top Law Schools

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:26 pm**

I graduated college in 2004 with a BSBA and a 2.0 GPA. During school, I played football, bartended 4 days a week in the off season and my parents went through a rough time during which, I put a lot of their weight on my shoulders. Needless to say it wasn't until a year or so after graduation when I realized how skewed my priorities had been. Fast forward to the present. I have since worked for 3 companies. 2 of which involved corporate sales positions and my present job is in national accounts as a team lead managing our billing/sales/customer/product demand relationships. I have always been interested in law and theory but I never wanted to take on the college loan debt. I also dated a girl for a year and a half who was a lawyer for a firm in Philly that specialized in acquisitions, mergers and securities. Almost everynight, she brought her work home with her which I became very familiar with and interested in.

I have asked my managers and senior advisors at all three jobs I have been involved with about their jobs, and I am not particularly drawn to any of their careers. Law on the other hand, attracts me. I know I have a low undergrad gpa, but I also have a decent resume' since gracuation. I would anticipate taking the lsat in February and preparing to hopefully score around 165ish. I am shooting for a school in the 25-40 range and hopefully ending up a top 20-15 student. How realistic is any of this and what tips can you give me?

Thank you for your time and comments!

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:31 pm**

JCGESS wrote:I graduated college in 2004 with a BSBA and a 2.0 GPA. During school, I played football, bartended 4 days a week in the off season and my parents went through a rough time during which, I put a lot of their weight on my shoulders. Needless to say it wasn't until a year or so after graduation when I realized how skewed my priorities had been. Fast forward to the present. I have since worked for 3 companies. 2 of which involved corporate sales positions and my present job is in national accounts as a team lead managing our billing/sales/customer/product demand relationships. I have always been interested in law and theory but I never wanted to take on the college loan debt. I also dated a girl for a year and a half who was a lawyer for a firm in Philly that specialized in acquisitions, mergers and securities. Almost everynight, she brought her work home with her which I became very familiar with and interested in.

I have asked my managers and senior advisors at all three jobs I have been involved with about their jobs, and I am not particularly drawn to any of their careers. Law on the other hand, attracts me. I know I have a low undergrad gpa, but I also have a decent resume' since gracuation. I would anticipate taking the lsat in February and preparing to hopefully score around 165ish. I am shooting for a school in the 25-40 range and hopefully ending up a top 20-15 student. How realistic is any of this and what tips can you give me?

Thank you for your time and comments!

Even with a 170, your chances at a school in the 25-40 range are really low, even with your WE. And you'd be such an extreme splitter (170+ with a 2.0) that your cycle would be extremely unpredictable. Are you a URM?

(also, check out lawschoolnumbers.com if you haven't yet to find how people with your stats fared.)

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:32 pm**

JCGESS wrote:I graduated college in 2004 with a BSBA and a 2.0 GPA. During school, I played football, bartended 4 days a week in the off season and my parents went through a rough time during which, I put a lot of their weight on my shoulders. Needless to say it wasn't until a year or so after graduation when I realized how skewed my priorities had been. Fast forward to the present. I have since worked for 3 companies. 2 of which involved corporate sales positions and my present job is in national accounts as a team lead managing our billing/sales/customer/product demand relationships. I have always been interested in law and theory but I never wanted to take on the college loan debt. I also dated a girl for a year and a half who was a lawyer for a firm in Philly that specialized in acquisitions, mergers and securities. Almost everynight, she brought her work home with her which I became very familiar with and interested in.

I have asked my managers and senior advisors at all three jobs I have been involved with about their jobs, and I am not particularly drawn to any of their careers. Law on the other hand, attracts me. I know I have a low undergrad gpa, but I also have a decent resume' since gracuation. I would anticipate taking the lsat in February and preparing to hopefully score around 165ish. I am shooting for a school in the 25-40 range and hopefully ending up a top 20-15 student. How realistic is any of this and what tips can you give me?

Thank you for your time and comments!

That GPA is going to kill you. Most people on this thread are going to suggest that you don't go to law school. Check out lawschoolpredictor.com and punch in your numbers.

Here is what you'll learn on TLS: T14 is pretty safe for employment; T15-50 might be alright with a decent scholarship; anything else is a bad idea.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:36 pm**

In your favor is the length of time since school, and the significant work experience.

Against you is the fact that many schools appear to have GPA floors, below which they won't go.

If you really want to go to law school - to a school from which you have a chance of employment after graduation - you will need to excel on the LSAT. Ideally several points higher than your 165 target.

Good luck.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:37 pm**

I got into an ok school with a 165 and an lsac gpa in the 2s. Just be prepaired for that gpa to drop into the 1s when you do the LSAC gpa calculator. It sucks, its a huge handicap, but we have to deal with it. I would try to hit 170, that will open some doors for you. 165 is a good score, but you need a REALLY high lsat to make it worth the adcom's time to give you a chance with such a low gpa. 170 is totally reasonable, you just have to study your ass off. I was testing in the mid 170s but I didn't sleep the night before the test and that screwed me. Dont make my mistake and you will be OK. Get on a regular sleep schedule a month in advance and you should be fine. Don't believe the negativity--law school predictor said I was a reject at several schools that I got into. You really have to hammer that LSAT though--don't go into it half cocked and don't put too much stock in the predictor--it gives you an estimate, nothing more. Score in the 170s and send out a ton of applications, and make a killer personal statement; you have had an interesting life that should be no problem for you.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:40 pm**

JCGESS wrote:I graduated college in 2004 with a BSBA and a 2.0 GPA. During school, I played football, bartended 4 days a week in the off season and my parents went through a rough time during which, I put a lot of their weight on my shoulders. Needless to say it wasn't until a year or so after graduation when I realized how skewed my priorities had been. Fast forward to the present. I have since worked for 3 companies. 2 of which involved corporate sales positions and my present job is in national accounts as a team lead managing our billing/sales/customer/product demand relationships. I have always been interested in law and theory but I never wanted to take on the college loan debt. I also dated a girl for a year and a half who was a lawyer for a firm in Philly that specialized in acquisitions, mergers and securities. Almost everynight, she brought her work home with her which I became very familiar with and interested in.

I have asked my managers and senior advisors at all three jobs I have been involved with about their jobs, and I am not particularly drawn to any of their careers. Law on the other hand, attracts me. I know I have a low undergrad gpa, but I also have a decent resume' since gracuation. I would anticipate taking the lsat in February and preparing to hopefully score around 165ish. I am shooting for a school in the 25-40 range and hopefully ending up a top 20-15 student. How realistic is any of this and what tips can you give me?

Thank you for your time and comments!

um...?

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:41 pm**

Don't rely on lawschoolpredictor because it's overly generous for splitters. Your best bet is to try to hit 170+ and apply to splitter-friendly schools like WUSTL, but even then it'll be very tough to break into the T1. A 165 simply won't cut it to get into a school that's worth going to.

Also, don't make any assumptions about how you'll do at any school. Hoping to be at the top 20% is fine, but don't go in expecting it because there is an equally good chance you could be in the bottom 20%. You should account for this when you're choosing your school.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:50 pm**

2.0 UGPA... Sorry, OP, law school is not for you; move on with your life.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:19 pm**

scammedhard wrote:2.0 UGPA... Sorry, OP, law school is not for you; move on with your life.

Because a poor UG performance should determine the rest of your life?

Did you even read the OP's post. They graduated seven years ago. They've been successful in their career over a number of years.

I've been through school with folk in their thirties and forties that struggled in school when they were young. I know for a fact that their earlier education did not accurately reflect their ability or intelligence.

If the OP knows they have moved on from the distractions that impeded them during their undergraduate studies, they should focus on the LSAT. If they can ace it and get in to a decent school then kudos to them for turning things around.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:32 pm**

albanach wrote:
scammedhard wrote:2.0 UGPA... Sorry, OP, law school is not for you; move on with your life.
Because a poor UG performance should determine the rest of your life?

Did you even read the OP's post. They graduated seven years ago. They've been successful in their career over a number of years.

I've been through school with folk in their thirties and forties that struggled in school when they were young. I know for a fact that their earlier education did not accurately reflect their ability or intelligence.

If the OP knows they have moved on from the distractions that impeded them during their undergraduate studies, they should focus on the LSAT. If they can ace it and get in to a decent school then kudos to them for turning things around.

Or maybe the OP's poor UG performance means he shouldn't go to law school, because he'll get stuck at a crap law school and saddled with tons of debt? When that person said the OP isn't meant for law school, I'm guessing that's what he meant. The OP would have to get a really amazing LSAT score to get into an even decent school, and then it's not even guaranteed.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:42 pm**

nStiver wrote:I got into an ok school with a 165 and an lsac gpa in the 2s. Just be prepaired for that gpa to drop into the 1s when you do the LSAC gpa calculator. It sucks, its a huge handicap, but we have to deal with it. I would try to hit 170, that will open some doors for you. 165 is a good score, but you need a REALLY high lsat to make it worth the adcom's time to give you a chance with such a low gpa. 170 is totally reasonable, you just have to study your ass off. I was testing in the mid 170s but I didn't sleep the night before the test and that screwed me. Dont make my mistake and you will be OK. Get on a regular sleep schedule a month in advance and you should be fine. Don't believe the negativity--law school predictor said I was a reject at several schools that I got into. You really have to hammer that LSAT though--don't go into it half cocked and don't put too much stock in the predictor--it gives you an estimate, nothing more. Score in the 170s and send out a ton of applications, and make a killer personal statement; you have had an interesting life that should be no problem for you.

@NStiver: Wait. According to your profile, your GPA was a 2.9 which is a world away from a 2.0.

@OP: My LSAT instructor said, "There is a law school for everyone." If you want to go to law school you definitely can, but a 2.0 gpa will likely relegate you to TT/TTT (assuming a strong LSAT performance), and at such a school you will have to be an exceptional student to snag a biglaw job like your girlfriend had, according to the data we have. Your WE should be a bonus for employment though. Good luck!

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:43 pm**

itsirtou wrote:
Or maybe the OP's poor UG performance means he shouldn't go to law school, because he'll get stuck at a crap law school and saddled with tons of debt? When that person said the OP isn't meant for law school, I'm guessing that's what he meant. The OP would have to get a really amazing LSAT score to get into an even decent school, and then it's not even guaranteed.

Well we won't know that until they have an LSAT score and have thrown out a bunch of apps.

I mean a score in the mid 170s could open up NU as a very outside prospect given the work experience. I'd bet a 170+ will see offers from a selection of T1 schools at least. Then it becomes a question of which schools and for how much.

Noo one can tell what the OP will get without a score, and even then it's going to be an unpredictable cycle. The advice on not going to law school is just a little premature IMHO.

The best advice if OP really wants to be a lawyer is to ace the LSAT. Everything else comes from there.

Posted: **Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:10 pm**

OP- Unless you are URM it is going to be very hard to get into a law school that gives you an even halfway decent chance of getting a job. If you are URM then that is a different discussion, so let us know if that is the case. I will assume for the rest of this post, however, that you are NOT a URM.

So... here is the real deal: you need a 168 or better on the LSAT. This will be very difficult to achieve. You will have to study your ass off, prepping on your own and possibly with a course (some people like courses, some don't- your choice). If you don't take a course I recommend having a tutor. The LSAT prep forums here are also very useful, BTW.

Next- you are going to have to assume that half or more of law schools will simply refuse to take you because of your GPA. No way around it, it is just the way it is. The only T14 you have a shot at might be Northwestern because of your work experience. Even then they may have a GPA floor. Even if they don't you will need to score above a 170... probably well above that. You would want to talk to a Northwestern person to learn more. But realistically that probably won't happen.

So the only schools you could potentially get into are strong regionals without a in-state (or a low in-state) preference. You will want to do some research on that. Also if you have a strong regional in your state that would help you out. It helped me out.

Also, if you are waiting until February you will want to wait a year to apply. If you want to apply this year you will want to take the LSAT in October. If you need to retake you will want to wait another year. Frankly it might be worthwhile for you to take in February, retake if necessary next June and then apply the moment applications become available. Adcomms seem more willing to take risks early in the cycle. Also you could ED to a strong regional... but then you will pay full price.

Another thought- you could go to a low ranked school that isn't a strong regional if and only if you have an offer in writing from a law firm (not your girlfriend's, but maybe one you made contacts with through her) of employment. Especially if they are willing to pay for some of your school- I hear this happens occasionally. Or possibly your current employer would be willing to pay for a law degree if you agree to work for them for a certain number of years.

Finally, I will be totally honest with you. This will be a tough road to follow. You had better be very sure you want this. Because your situation is filled with many pitfalls: you could do poorly on your LSAT, you could never get into a school, or you could get into a school and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars but never gain employment as an attorney. This last one is much more realistic than you might think because your low GPA will keep you out of the high ranked schools. Low ranked schools will often post actual legal employment rates of less than 20%... sometimes even worse.

If you still want to do this, if this is your dream... then let us know after you get your LSAT score and we will try to help you more. For now just realize the risks you are taking and make a decision based off this more informed position. I hope that if you follow this road you get a 170 or better.

PS. if you are URM, please let us know as this will change things significantly.

Posted: **Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:44 am**

172+ is necessary for NU and on LSN they've taken low as 2.6 for non-URM and 2.2 for URM.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:19 pm**

This was a very helpful thread. I am in a similar situation and am deciding whether law school is feasible based on my background.

I'm a 30-yr old working professional with several years of strong work experience in human resources and finance. My goal is to pursue a career in employment law and benefits compliance. Unfortunately, my undergrad GPA is a 2.4. I graduated in 2004 and have been very productive since then. There were some serious family problems that caused me to struggle in undergrad (which I can explain in an addendum or diversity statement), however my undergrad GPA for the last three semesters was, respectively, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.1.

By the time I apply for law school, I'll hold three senior-level professional designations in human resources management (SPHR), project management (PMP) and employee benefits (CEBS). A great deal of my job training and experience deals with understanding employment and insurance law, and legal compliance.

I'm currently enrolled in an MBA program at University of Maryland and expect to graduate with a 4.0, however I was disappointed to find out that graduate work is not considered by LSAC. I test very well and placed 96th percentile on the GMAT, so with good preparation I expect to perform well on the LSAT. I qualify as a URM (African-American).

The irony of all this, is that with the credentials and experience I already have, I can remain in my current career path without going to law school and in 4-6 years obtain a position as an HR director, consultant, or HR business partner with a six figure salary. I'd perform consultative work similar to what I'd like to do as an attorney. The demand for professionals with my skill set (expecially in benefits administration) is very high.

However, I'm still interested in practicing law, and think that my work experience would be a huge asset in the field of employment law.

At this point, based on my research and considering the risks of not being admitted to a quality law school, or getting a job afterwards, I'm getting the impression that this career path may not be realistic. Not to mention the issue of supporting my family as a full time student. Just wanted some feedback... thanks in advance to anyone who offers advice.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:32 pm**

The OP is in a difficult situation because, with an unjustified & inexcusable 2.0 GPA, a high LSAT score will just magnify the concern that he is lazy & undisciplined with respect to academic pursuits.

P.S. A 2.0 GPA is not a 2.9 or even a 2.4.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:38 pm**

itsirtou wrote:
Or maybe the OP's poor UG performance means he shouldn't go to law school, because he'll get stuck at a crap law school and saddled with tons of debt? When that person said the OP isn't meant for law school, I'm guessing that's what he meant. The OP would have to get a really amazing LSAT score to get into an even decent school, and then it's not even guaranteed.

This.

OP: you might do very well in law school, and you might make a great lawyer. But, the cold hard reality is that law school admission is a numbers game, and your GPA is terrible. Unless you absolutely destroy the LSAT, you don't want to go to any school that would admit you. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:47 pm**

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:56 pm**

OP never came back after he posted that in August so you should probably be offering your advice to the guy who bumped the thread

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:33 pm**

joncarter2 wrote:The irony of all this, is that with the credentials and experience I already have, I can remain in my current career path without going to law school and in 4-6 years obtain a position as an HR director, consultant, or HR business partner with a six figure salary. I'd perform consultative work similar to what I'd like to do as an attorney. The demand for professionals with my skill set (expecially in benefits administration) is very high.

Typically, I'm a "follow your dreams" type of person but in your situation, I would stay at your current position and only go to law school when you have the ~$200k saved up and see it as a "fun/goal fulfilling" project. Of course the money could be put towards retirement or a new ferrari but that's the only scenario I can see to justify pursuing law school with a 2.4 UGPA and on-track for a HR director position.

Given your current opportunity costs, a decision to go to law school just isn't tenable imo.

Posted: **Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:55 pm**

joncarter2 wrote:This was a very helpful thread. I am in a similar situation and am deciding whether law school is feasible based on my background.

I'm a 30-yr old working professional with several years of strong work experience in human resources and finance. My goal is to pursue a career in employment law and benefits compliance. Unfortunately, my undergrad GPA is a 2.4. I graduated in 2004 and have been very productive since then. There were some serious family problems that caused me to struggle in undergrad (which I can explain in an addendum or diversity statement), however my undergrad GPA for the last three semesters was, respectively, 3.0, 3.5, and 3.1.

By the time I apply for law school, I'll hold three senior-level professional designations in human resources management (SPHR), project management (PMP) and employee benefits (CEBS). A great deal of my job training and experience deals with understanding employment and insurance law, and legal compliance.

I'm currently enrolled in an MBA program at University of Maryland and expect to graduate with a 4.0, however I was disappointed to find out that graduate work is not considered by LSAC. I test very well and placed 96th percentile on the GMAT, so with good preparation I expect to perform well on the LSAT. I qualify as a URM (African-American).

The irony of all this, is that with the credentials and experience I already have, I can remain in my current career path without going to law school and in 4-6 years obtain a position as an HR director, consultant, or HR business partner with a six figure salary. I'd perform consultative work similar to what I'd like to do as an attorney. The demand for professionals with my skill set (expecially in benefits administration) is very high.

However, I'm still interested in practicing law, and think that my work experience would be a huge asset in the field of employment law.

At this point, based on my research and considering the risks of not being admitted to a quality law school, or getting a job afterwards, I'm getting the impression that this career path may not be realistic. Not to mention the issue of supporting my family as a full time student. Just wanted some feedback... thanks in advance to anyone who offers advice.

It sounds like law school might not be practical in your situation. I imagine you make a decent salary now, so even if you were to get a full ride to law school, multiply your salary times three and you're giving that much up to attend full time. Also, labor and employment law isn't the highest paying field out there. There are certainly some large law firms with labor & employment practices, but there are also a lot of attorneys in that practice area who probably start at a lower salary than you make now.

If being an attorney is really your dream, if you are in the DC/Baltimore area, maybe if you do well on the LSAT and get substantial merit aid, you can look into doing a part-time program at a school like UMD/GW/GULC and keep your job if that would be feasible in your situation.

Posted: **Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:59 pm**

scammedhard wrote:2.0 UGPA... Sorry, OP, law school is not for you; move on with your life.

Not true. 170+ gives OP a great chance at Indy, NM, Catholic, Depaul, Seattle, MSU, Buffalo, Syracuse, Rutgers and many others. If OP really wants to go to law school, it's more than possible.

I certainly wouldn't go in OP's situation, but that's me.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:47 am**

Forget your UGPA... a massive lsat will silence objections given your age and work experience. Score high enough on the lsat to obtain fee waivers from most T25 schools (a 164+ should secure that option, easily achieved with a DEDICATED 2+ month study schedule), spread your apps far and wide, and then come back to tls and wave your man (or woman) parts at all these elitist tls'ers preaching that you need a 178+ lsat to be a success in the "prestigious" field of law and law school.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:17 pm**

joshceo wrote:Forget your UGPA... a massive lsat will silence objections given your age and work experience. Score high enough on the lsat to obtain fee waivers from most T25 schools (a 164+ should secure that option, easily achieved with a DEDICATED 2+ month study schedule), spread your apps far and wide, and then come back to tls and wave your man (or woman) parts at all these elitist tls'ers preaching that you need a 178+ lsat to be a success in the "prestigious" field of law and law school.

I believe people ITT have suggested OP should get a 170+ (one person said 172+ with another saying mid-170s) to get into a school that's worthwhile to attend; no one said (s)he needed a 178+ for success until you brought up your straw man attack on the TLS hive mind. The opinion that OP needs 170+ to make law school a viable decision is credited. It's not necessarily TLS "elitism" to give advice by taking all the facts given by OP into consideration, including UGPA/WE/OP's other opportunities/etc.

OP should definitely not forget his/her UGPA since it will play a major part on OP's law school application and should absolutely contribute to the decision of whether or not to pursue law school.

In the nicest way possible: joshceo's advice is terrible. A 164+/2.0 will in no way secure a T25 school. Even if it did, OP should be aiming for 170+, as previous posters have pointed out if (s)he wants to choose law school over the possibility of upper-management in HR in 4-6 years.

Posted: **Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:20 pm**

Ludovico Technique wrote:OP never came back after he posted that in August so you should probably be offering your advice to the guy who bumped the thread

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