Top Law Schools

Any idea of what schools offer spring admissions off the top of your head?

None that you should aspire to attend.

CARDOZA

buckilaw wrote:None that you should aspire to attend.

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree. Maybe it will matter for your first job, but once you get experience it really won't matter. So, I'm kinda stuck in the middle hearing what everyone is saying negatively about these schools and what lawyers themselves are saying... who to believe!?!?

livelovelaugh49 wrote:

buckilaw wrote:None that you should aspire to attend.

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree. Maybe it will matter for your first job, but once you get experience it really won't matter. So, I'm kinda stuck in the middle hearing what everyone is saying negatively about these schools and what lawyers themselves are saying... who to believe!?!?

definitely believe the people (lawyers) who haven't been actively searching the job market since before the recession.

livelovelaugh49 wrote:

buckilaw wrote:None that you should aspire to attend.

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree. Maybe it will matter for your first job, but once you get experience it really won't matter. So, I'm kinda stuck in the middle hearing what everyone is saying negatively about these schools and what lawyers themselves are saying... who to believe!?!?

What's interesting about this statement is that it's technically true but misses the more significant point. It's absolutely the case that after you land the first job your career trajectory is determined not by your school but by the quality of your work product and the connections you build. However, as the tens of thousands of law school graduates who never land full-time legal employment can tell you, the first job is very, very important, and all-too-often, very, very difficult to obtain.

try to search here on the forums, i'm sure you will find info.

here's an oldie, http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... f=2&t=1255

livelovelaugh49 wrote:

buckilaw wrote:None that you should aspire to attend.

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree. Maybe it will matter for your first job, but once you get experience it really won't matter. So, I'm kinda stuck in the middle hearing what everyone is saying negatively about these schools and what lawyers themselves are saying... who to believe!?!?

Not to be a dick, but ask yourself where these lawyers are coming from. Are they saying it doesn't matter where you go to reaffirm decisions that they have made? Your first job is important, there are certain things in law that are really only open right after you finish school, your school and grades will likely determine the type of job you can get the first year out of school.

Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

glitter178 wrote:

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

I just laughed so loud in my office, the secretary came in and thought something was wrong. OP everyone is telling you the right thing. I'm working at a V30 Firm for the summer. These people don't even look at apps from certain school. There is always the one St. Johns or Hofstra person here but it is so rare. There is even snobbery in where you went to undergrad (although to a much lesser extent). Even when I look at Laterals to my firm. They all worked at other top firms or were AUSA or something and the way you get those jobs are by going to good schools. You can make it in law from some of the 3/4 tier schools but are you willing to bank 200k on a 5% shot?

glitter178 wrote:

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

I have heard that no, it does not have a good ranking, but that can be seen as somewhat arbitrary in the legal community because most Tier 1 school (which have a good ranking) have an undergrad program attached to it. So, a school like Cal Western (which has no undergrad program) has a lower ranking, but is still viewed highly in the legal community, in San Diego at least. Also, they have pretty high bar passage rates: http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/c ... chool.html. Next, I hear that have a wonderful career services department. After talking to many current and past law students I hear it is essential for a school to have a good career services dept especially in our economy today. I have often heard that where you go to law school is often where you will practice because you form connections in that location due to internships etc., but I recently spoke to one graduate who graduated from an Indiana University and her career services was able to get her a job in Arizona. So, I realize the importance of a good career services dept. Also, a school's accreditation matters a lot and Cal Western has been ABA accredited for a long time, one of the longest in southern California, so I hear. That is comforting.

Seeing that I want to live in California or Arizona and that it has a good reputation in the legal community out there it is looking good to me based on what I have heard about it. Do not hate on the messenger... this is just what I have heard on it, I am just passing the information along. Let me know what you think.

unc0mm0n1 wrote:

glitter178 wrote:

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

I just laughed so loud in my office, the secretary came in and thought something was wrong. OP everyone is telling you the right thing. I'm working at a V30 Firm for the summer. These people don't even look at apps from certain school. There is always the one St. Johns or Hofstra person here but it is so rare. There is even snobbery in where you went to undergrad (although to a much lesser extent). Even when I look at Laterals to my firm. They all worked at other top firms or were AUSA or something and the way you get those jobs are by going to good schools. You can make it in law from some of the 3/4 tier schools but are you willing to bank 200k on a 5% shot?

Okay now, no need to be rude. I am simply just trying to find information and weigh my options... not to get mocked. I appreciate the rest of your response though. Luckily I did go to a good ungrad program and graduated with honors.

unc0mm0n1 wrote:

glitter178 wrote:

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

I just laughed so loud in my office, the secretary came in and thought something was wrong

Just because your mom checked in on you in her basement doesn`t mean you have to be a jerk. OP was asking an honest question and if you don`t have an answer no one cares what you have to say.

furdude wrote:

unc0mm0n1 wrote:

glitter178 wrote:

livelovelaugh49 wrote:Thanks everyone for your input. It is really beneficial to hear both sides of the story because it definitely helps me with making my decision. Greatly appreciated! Although, there is one spring program though that I have heard great things about (yes, all the others I have heard negative about). The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

define "great things."

I just laughed so loud in my office, the secretary came in and thought something was wrong

Just because your mom checked in on you in her basement doesn`t mean you have to be a jerk. OP was asking an honest question and if you don`t have an answer no one cares what you have to say.

Thanks for the backup!! ^ there are some nice people on this forum afterall!

Spring admissions are bad for many reasons, most important of which is work related. Most good post law school jobs (clerkships, federal, big law, etc) hire at the same time each year. As a spring applicant, none of those jobs will be easy to get.

California Western has a decent rep for a T4 school, but at the end of the day it is a T4 school. Unless you are at the very top of the class (extremely unlikely), your job opportunities will be limited. If you goal is to work in a small firm with bad hours and horrible pay, or as a public defender in the middle of nowhere, attending Cal Western might be a decent choice. Outside of that, I would recommend you consider another school.

You are partially right when you state that work product is more important than a school name or school rank. However, the best job opportunities are precluded to people who don't have a high class rank and high school rank. The decent opportunities are unavailable to those without good school names and a decent ranking or low ranked schools with an extremely high ranking. To put it simply, you will not get a good "first" job unless you attend a good school and do well or a bad school and do incredibly well (top 1-5%). If your first job is not good, no matter how well you do, you will have a hard time ever breaking into one of the "good" jobs (good job as used here = clerkship, big law, smaller but good niche firm, good federal positions like DoJ, etc).

Summary:

1. Attend a school in the Fall.
2. Avoid T3/T4 schools unless you have a plan that does not involve transferring.

the only way you can expect meaningful employment out of a t-4 is if you make law review. while there is no doubt a major intellectual drop off from the t-14 to a tttt, the top 10% at a tttt would probably be above average at a t-14. it is just a bad bet all around. the people who say it doesn't matter got extremely lucky with connections, and normally made law review at these places. dn't say it's just the first job. your first job in this field is everything.

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree.

I am a lawyer. The lawyers you talked to either did not graduate in the last 10 years or have been living in a cave since graduation. Yes, where you go to law school will mostly affect your first job. But a good first job is essential to a good second job, and a good career down the line.

It used to be that graduates from mediocre schools and/or with mediocre grades could go work for the public defender's office or apprentice or a small firm that would provide great training. It has become increasingly the case that those graduates either cannot find legal work at all, or can only find non-substantive work. You could have the potential to be the greatest attorney to ever walk the face of the earth, but if the only job you find out of law school is a temporary document review job, you are never going to get the opportunities you need to develop useful skills.

The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

I've met Cal Western students/grads. Their appraisal of the school was mixed, at best.


Bottom line: there is no reason to attend a spring-start program other than impatience. That impatience could cost you thousands of dollars in lost scholarship money, or worse, the chance at a fulfilling legal career.

random5483 wrote:Spring admissions are bad for many reasons, most important of which is work related. Most good post law school jobs (clerkships, federal, big law, etc) hire at the same time each year. As a spring applicant, none of those jobs will be easy to get.

California Western has a decent rep for a T4 school, but at the end of the day it is a T4 school. Unless you are at the very top of the class (extremely unlikely), your job opportunities will be limited. If you goal is to work in a small firm with bad hours and horrible pay, or as a public defender in the middle of nowhere, attending Cal Western might be a decent choice. Outside of that, I would recommend you consider another school.

You are partially right when you state that work product is more important than a school name or school rank. However, the best job opportunities are precluded to people who don't have a high class rank and high school rank. The decent opportunities are unavailable to those without good school names and a decent ranking or low ranked schools with an extremely high ranking. To put it simply, you will not get a good "first" job unless you attend a good school and do well or a bad school and do incredibly well (top 1-5%). If your first job is not good, no matter how well you do, you will have a hard time ever breaking into one of the "good" jobs (good job as used here = clerkship, big law, smaller but good niche firm, good federal positions like DoJ, etc).

Summary:

1. Attend a school in the Fall.
2. Avoid T3/T4 schools unless you have a plan that does not involve transferring.

Definitely appreciate your response... very informative. I didn't know that much about the job market for Spring graduates, so thanks for pointing that out to me because that was definitely something I needed to look into!! Thanks

nealric wrote:

Okay everyone keeps saying that, but EVERY lawyer (and I have talked to a ton) has said that it really does not matter what law school you go to as long as you get a law degree.

I am a lawyer. The lawyers you talked to either did not graduate in the last 10 years or have been living in a cave since graduation. Yes, where you go to law school will mostly affect your first job. But a good first job is essential to a good second job, and a good career down the line.

It used to be that graduates from mediocre schools and/or with mediocre grades could go work for the public defender's office or apprentice or a small firm that would provide great training. It has become increasingly the case that those graduates either cannot find legal work at all, or can only find non-substantive work. You could have the potential to be the greatest attorney to ever walk the face of the earth, but if the only job you find out of law school is a temporary document review job, you are never going to get the opportunities you need to develop useful skills.

The one good one being California Western in San Diego. Anyone heard anything about it?

I've met Cal Western students/grads. Their appraisal of the school was mixed, at best.


Bottom line: there is no reason to attend a spring-start program other than impatience. That impatience could cost you thousands of dollars in lost scholarship money, or worse, the chance at a fulfilling legal career.

Good to know from a lawyer themselves. Yes, some lawyers I have spoken to have been out of school for a while, so I am sure they are a bit "outdated" when it comes to the job market. Thanks for pointing that out to me!!

.

This troll still exists? Look, when hundreds of people tell you something, and you still ignore it, what does that say about you?

Look, this idiot is just hell bent on going to a disgusting, festering TTTT in decline for $200K+. I say we give up and let "LiveLoveLaugh" become "DieHateCry" once he/she realizes that his/her exclamations points/polite responses thanking everyone for shitting on her choices/flowering optimism will never service the mountains of soul-crushing debt accumulated or offset the disdainfully abysmal job prospects.

It doesn't matter where you got your law degree. Psh. Grow up.

Thanks to those who have actually given me beneficial advice and have not acted in a bullying manner. I did not start this thread to stir up any controversy; rather I came here for the sole purpose of what this forum is for: to get the advice from others (such as yourselves) that have gone or are going through a similar law school search as myself. Say what you want to say about what kind of person I am for asking about these spring admission programs, but at the end of the day I was just ASKING people's opinions on them... last time I checked there was no harm in doing that. So, I do not feel you should pass judgment on what kind of person I am because you have no idea who I am, what I have accomplished or where I have been in my life based on a silly little question. So back off. As to those who have truly given me advice I thank you!!

To OP:

Anything you here from lawyers who went to non-top 50 schools, but are practicing law and living a great life is generalizing from a sample size that is not representative.