Top Law Schools

Any T2 grads out there that do not regret for one second the fact that they decided to go to law school? Also, how are you and your classmates faring in terms of finding jobs? I am very curious about this because all I hear on this site and from friends is that going to a T2 is basically like playing blackjack with 100k+ bet on one hand. Thanks in advance. It might help me decide whether law school is still a worthwhile investment.

Let's just say I like the law and do not find it boring. I am just worried about the unpredictability of law school grades. Also for the people who are willing to answer the question above, is it really true that one can get shitty grades even if they understand the material and put in the time to do a shit ton of practice exams?

I won't answer your first question. But in regards to your second question, yes, it is definitely possible and happens all the time. Everyone (for the most part) understands the material just as well as you do. It all comes down to applying it better than everyone else.

Charles Barkley wrote:Everyone (for the most part) understands the material just as well as you do.

i hear this all the time, but i really doubt it's true. i mean, maybe there's a bigger spread in preparation at UVA, but i definitely feel like there's a definite spread in mastery of the material come exam time, i.e. ability to apply the material quickly is not the only factor in grades.

It ultimately depends on the given school and class year, but if you're a) not a moron b) work hard and c) can repeatedly refine your study and exam taking technique, there's no reason you can't at LEAST be in the top 50% of your class at a T2. A lot of people know the law, but a lot suck at application. TBH, the process of learning to apply the law is one of the funnest parts of law school, IMO.

FWIW, I made a bunch of fucking rookie mistakes on my 1st semester exams and still ended up in the top 25% at my T2. We get second semester grades back in 2-3 weeks, so hopefully my refined method bumps me up into the top 10-15%.

TL;DR: LS isn't hard, just be open-minded and ready to work and you'll do fine grade wise probably.

I graduated this May (2011) from a T2. I do not regret going. However, I did go with a full ride. (I would not have gone without a full ride - probably if I had discovered this site earlier I would not have gone with the top 25% stipulation. It worked for me, but I know a number of people who did lose their scholarship). I have a good job lined up after graduation. The reality is that many people, even at the top schools, are having trouble finding legal employment. It certainly becomes more grim as you go lower.

Regarding your second question, yes you can study hard and "right" and still not do well. As many have said before, studying hard is neither necessary or sufficient to doing well. Those who do poorly on exams may well have a solid grasp of the law. Unfortunately, their classmates' grasp is better. That is the bitch of the curve, particularly at lower ranked schools - the majority of people are not going to get A's and A-'s.

Bottom line, even at the lower ranked schools, particularly those in the top 100, the faculty are all impressive. The books are the same and the bar passage rate is typically relatively good. Nevertheless, the UNSWR rankings matter. Particularly to big firms.

By all means go as hard as you can from Day 1 and maximize your chances for success. Be aware that for the most part most people are not slackers in law school - particulary in the first year.

Thanks for the comments. bump

risktaker wrote:Thanks for the comments. bump

I have a friend who was strongly encouraging me to go to a T2 over schools in the T14. He had really good numbers, but he didn't get Penn and he didn't want to move to any of the peer-school areas. He ended up at a school ranked in the eighties, that traditionally does very well for its top 5%. He's in the top 5%, and has a SA at a V20, and now he evangelizes for his choice. I have another friend (1L) who made a similar choice, and also seems to be in the top 10% - but I'm not sure if that will be enough for him.

The people I know in real life seem to belie the TLS assumption that "you don't know you'll do better at a worse school."

Thanks delusional.

delusional wrote:

risktaker wrote:Thanks for the comments. bump

I have a friend who was strongly encouraging me to go to a T2 over schools in the T14. He had really good numbers, but he didn't get Penn and he didn't want to move to any of the peer-school areas. He ended up at a school ranked in the eighties, that traditionally does very well for its top 5%. He's in the top 5%, and has a SA at a V20, and now he evangelizes for his choice. I have another friend (1L) who made a similar choice, and also seems to be in the top 10% - but I'm not sure if that will be enough for him.

The people I know in real life seem to belie the TLS assumption that "you don't know you'll do better at a worse school."

Villanova or Rutgers-Camden I'm guessing. Must be Rutgers, typically the top 10% at Nova is safe for biglawl.

beach_terror wrote:

delusional wrote:

risktaker wrote:Thanks for the comments. bump

I have a friend who was strongly encouraging me to go to a T2 over schools in the T14. He had really good numbers, but he didn't get Penn and he didn't want to move to any of the peer-school areas. He ended up at a school ranked in the eighties, that traditionally does very well for its top 5%. He's in the top 5%, and has a SA at a V20, and now he evangelizes for his choice. I have another friend (1L) who made a similar choice, and also seems to be in the top 10% - but I'm not sure if that will be enough for him.

The people I know in real life seem to belie the TLS assumption that "you don't know you'll do better at a worse school."

Villanova or Rutgers-Camden I'm guessing. Must be Rutgers, typically the top 10% at Nova is safe for biglawl.

Close enough.

.

OldManHunger wrote:How fucking restricted is your view of the world that you're scraping these boards for ANY evidence of confirmation bias that ANY grad from a shitty law school doesn't regret their stupid financial gamble? Go work on organic farms for a year. Go do any kind of real work. If you have been, then try moving somewhere new and doing a different kind of work. Plenty of shitty law schools will still be ready to take your money and spit you out in a year or two. Taking a break on this decision will, at worst, just delay your self-destruction.

Somebody hasn't had their coffee yet..

mrtoren wrote:

OldManHunger wrote:How fucking restricted is your view of the world that you're scraping these boards for ANY evidence of confirmation bias that ANY grad from a shitty law school doesn't regret their stupid financial gamble? Go work on organic farms for a year. Go do any kind of real work. If you have been, then try moving somewhere new and doing a different kind of work. Plenty of shitty law schools will still be ready to take your money and spit you out in a year or two. Taking a break on this decision will, at worst, just delay your self-destruction.

Somebody hasn't had their coffee yet..

+1

This thread is pointless + the term T2 is too broad. Which schools do you actually want to know about?

risktaker wrote:Any T2 grads out there that do not regret for one second the fact that they decided to go to law school? Also, how are you and your classmates faring in terms of finding jobs? I am very curious about this because all I hear on this site and from friends is that going to a T2 is basically like playing blackjack with 100k+ bet on one hand. Thanks in advance. It might help me decide whether law school is still a worthwhile investment.

Let's just say I like the law and do not find it boring. I am just worried about the unpredictability of law school grades. Also for the people who are willing to answer the question above, is it really true that one can get shitty grades even if they understand the material and put in the time to do a shit ton of practice exams?

I think pretty much everyone would agree that the answer to this is a resounding "obviously." That is just common sense. It is always possible to study a shitload and still fuck up. Studying a lot doesn't guarantee anything, but if you study smartly and efficiently it is definitely a step in the right direction.

dailygrind wrote:

Charles Barkley wrote:Everyone (for the most part) understands the material just as well as you do.

i hear this all the time, but i really doubt it's true. i mean, maybe there's a bigger spread in preparation at UVA, but i definitely feel like there's a definite spread in mastery of the material come exam time, i.e. ability to apply the material quickly is not the only factor in grades.

Yeah. "Everyone understands the material" is just as much of a myth as "everyone is intelligent" and "everyone works hard."

chimp wrote:This thread is pointless + the term T2 is too broad. Which schools do you actually want to know about?

This. Not all T2s are created equal.

RVP11 wrote:

dailygrind wrote:

Charles Barkley wrote:Everyone (for the most part) understands the material just as well as you do.

i hear this all the time, but i really doubt it's true. i mean, maybe there's a bigger spread in preparation at UVA, but i definitely feel like there's a definite spread in mastery of the material come exam time, i.e. ability to apply the material quickly is not the only factor in grades.

Yeah. "Everyone understands the material" is just as much of a myth as "everyone is intelligent" and "everyone works hard."

Yeah this wouldn't surprise me. I'm a 0L, but just from my UG there were plenty of kids who looked smart, or just seemed like they knew what they were talking about, but in reality didn't know shit. That or they're all just awful test takers.

It would be nice to hear from grads or 2Ls who are going to T2 schools in saturated markets but have still managed to find a decent job and have no regrets.

risktaker wrote:It would be nice to hear from grads or 2Ls who are going to T2 schools in saturated markets but have still managed to find a decent job and have no regrets.

Just go to the ASDs if that's what you're looking for. They all seem to come out of the woodwork for false reassurance during these events.

risktaker wrote:It would be nice to hear from grads or 2Ls who are going to T2 schools in saturated markets but have still managed to find a decent job and have no regrets.

General consensus around my T2 is that the market is shitty, but if you're somewhere near the top 30% of the class you'll probably be fine if you hustle for jobs and interview well. IIRC, about 15% of my T2 gets NLJ250. I'm a rising 2L.

Asking for people who don't regret going is kind of like asking for people who don't regret playing the lottery. Most respondents will be lottery winners, and hearing from those who beat the odds doesn't really increase your chances at all. You're just creating a selection bias that favors what you want to hear.

People can still be successful graduating from T2 schools. However, these days the vast majority of those who consider themselves successful either 1) took a huge scholarship and had fewer loans to repay or 2) finished near the top of their class. In all honesty the happies are probably some combination of both.

Regarding shitty grades despite knowing the material and doing lots of practice exams... The thing about practice exams is you need feedback. I took a few and didn't improve at all; then I got feedback from professors on a couple and learned what specifically I was doing wrong and improved dramatically. Still, I ended up with one below-median grade my first semester, where the professor bluntly told me afterward my knowledge of the law was good and I had identified many of the right issues, and a good grade required more than that. I'd just not done one thing I did on my other tests and it made that much difference.

That was at a T14 but exams are not much different between T1 and T2 schools at all.

I am just trying to reassure myself that going to a T2 like Seattle U or UOP might not be that bad of an idea if I am actually keen on practicing law. Don't know where to turn to. I have pretty much done most of my homework on this. Looked up employment stats, talked to a few students currently going to these schools, touched base with a couple alumni, etc. All of these people have not really had any regrets going to these schools. Then again, they are gainfully employed, so their perspective might be different from other grads. This whole process is going to drive me nuts.

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Will be visiting Seattle U, so I will definitely ask for it when I go there.