Top Law Schools

Hey Guys,

I wanted to start off by saying how grateful I am to have people like you guys to ask advice whenever I need help in my law related aspirations. I know this is my first post but I just wanted to say that. Anyways I am a sophomore at Tulane University as a Finance Major at the Freeman school of business. After getting out of high school I always wanted to become a corporate or tax lawyer. Recently I found out joint degrees were possible at most universities and one specific joint degree has caught my attention significantly: the JD/MBA. After researching I found out Northwestern has a joint degree program with the Kellogg school and the requirement is only GMAT, which is very beneficial to me being a finance major.

My question is how would I go about to pursue that joint degree. It would be much appreciated if you could answer questions like: is work experience, what do you think about the JD/MBA, what do you guys think about the JD/MBA program at Northwestern specifically, and ultimately is it worth it?

Jd/mba at NU is one of the few programs I'd recommend. Most jd/mba's are worthless. But realize you won't be getting in unless you were already competitive for kellogg which means several years of impressive work experience and a high gmat. You won't be getting in out of undergrad.

You don't need a JD/MBA to be a corporate tax lawyer. I would even say that a CPA would be more valuable. Almost all of the graduates of NUs JD/MBA program who go for a law job do something in the transactional space.

It is a substantial investment in terms of tuition relative to a traditional JD, so you have to have a good reason to get one. Also you will need to have at least 2 years, more likely 3 years, of quality post graduate work experience prior to starting.

If your goal is tax law and you have a good GPA and can get an LSAT score good enough to get you into a mid-level T14, you should probably just go straight through.

I think the JD/MBA at Northwestern is really worthwhile. There's a not insignificant chance that you won't want to be a tax lawyer forever, and having the MBA if you decide you want to get out of there will be very helpful.

As some other posters have alluded to, the question of whether it's worth it even at T14 schools is open. In my opinion, the breakdown is like this:

Definitely Worth It
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Northwestern

Possibly Worth It
NYU
Michigan
Berkeley

Probably Not Worth It
Yale
Virginia
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown

Not Worth It
Anywhere Else

Curious as to why some write that JD/MBA degrees are not worthwhile. Are these comments just referring to OCI recruiting ? Any real world experience behind those opinions ? Thanks !

pappathizz wrote:Hey Guys,

I wanted to start off by saying how grateful I am to have people like you guys to ask advice whenever I need help in my law related aspirations. I know this is my first post but I just wanted to say that. Anyways I am a sophomore at Tulane University as a Finance Major at the Freeman school of business. After getting out of high school I always wanted to become a corporate or tax lawyer. Recently I found out joint degrees were possible at most universities and one specific joint degree has caught my attention significantly: the JD/MBA. After researching I found out Northwestern has a joint degree program with the Kellogg school and the requirement is only GMAT, which is very beneficial to me being a finance major.

My question is how would I go about to pursue that joint degree. It would be much appreciated if you could answer questions like: is work experience, what do you think about the JD/MBA, what do you guys think about the JD/MBA program at Northwestern specifically, and ultimately is it worth it?

For a while I considered pursuing a JD/MBA, and while I don't know too much about it, here is what I do know.

1. At a lot of schools (if not all) you have to apply to both the law school and the business school separately, you can't just get into the business school through the back door by gaining admission to the law school (although I've heard that at many schools it is easier to get into the MBA program if you are a law student). That means there's a lot of legwork involved since you have to take both the LSAT and the GMAT.

2. I don't know your financial situation, but cost is definitely something you will need to consider. I'm not sure how most schools configure their tuition amounts for JD/MBAs, but I would imagine your debt load will be significantly higher than if you just did one program or the other if for no other reason than you are going to spend an extra 1 to 1 1/2 years in school. It's not sight unseen for people to graduate with 150-200k in debt for just a law degree, so that's something to consider.

CanadianWolf wrote:Curious as to why some write that JD/MBA degrees are not worthwhile. Are these comments just referring to OCI recruiting ? Any real world experience behind those opinions ? Thanks !

It's basically about OCI recruiting. The schools I listed as definitely worth it are schools that produce lucrative job prospects from both the law and business schools. You will be recruited by top law firms as well as banks, consulting firms, large media companies, and developers. You have a strong chance of paying off your debt quickly utilizing recruiting from either school.

I also chose the schools based on whether or not the business school has a real heritage of being a leader in a field. Harvard is Harvard, Stanford produces top tech leaders and venture capitalists, Wharton, Columbia, and Chicago are the top finance schools in the country, and Kellogg is obviously very strong in marketing. If you get both a JD and an MBA from one of these schools you are receiving an unquestionably world class education in both law and business.

The next tier down of NYU, Michigan, and Berkeley might still be worth it but none of those schools are really known as being the very top of any field. NYU is excellent in finance but lags the three previously listed, Michigan produces some solid industry leaders but the ROI on the school is notoriously somewhat low, and Berkeley is in many ways an also-ran to Stanford. All three are good schools, but the law schools are of a higher caliber at each. That said, if you know you want to go into finance, for example, a Stern MBA would be a good addition to an NYU Law degree even though it's not quite as prestigious.

The third tier are schools that really aren't well known for anything in business. A Yale MBA kind of tarnishes the prestige of the JD as the b school is nothing to write home about, and Cornell, Duke, UVA and Georgetown really don't have any distinguishing features for their business schools. They aren't bad schools, but it's questionable whether or not you will actually be able to lever the MBA to make more money or get a better career going in the future. It's not worth it if it's unlikely that you can use that degree to lever into something better than the firm you would otherwise be working at anyway.

The info comes from experience as I'm a joint degree student. I worked in investment banking before law school and made my choice very carefully.

HamDel wrote:

CanadianWolf wrote:Curious as to why some write that JD/MBA degrees are not worthwhile. Are these comments just referring to OCI recruiting ? Any real world experience behind those opinions ? Thanks !

It's basically about OCI recruiting. The schools I listed as definitely worth it are schools that produce lucrative job prospects from both the law and business schools. You will be recruited by top law firms as well as banks, consulting firms, large media companies, and developers. You have a strong chance of paying off your debt quickly utilizing recruiting from either school.

I also chose the schools based on whether or not the business school has a real heritage of being a leader in a field. Harvard is Harvard, Stanford produces top tech leaders and venture capitalists, Wharton, Columbia, and Chicago are the top finance schools in the country, and Kellogg is obviously very strong in marketing. If you get both a JD and an MBA from one of these schools you are receiving an unquestionably world class education in both law and business.

The next tier down of NYU, Michigan, and Berkeley might still be worth it but none of those schools are really known as being the very top of any field. NYU is excellent in finance but lags the three previously listed, Michigan produces some solid industry leaders but the ROI on the school is notoriously somewhat low, and Berkeley is in many ways an also-ran to Stanford. All three are good schools, but the law schools are of a higher caliber at each. That said, if you know you want to go into finance, for example, a Stern MBA would be a good addition to an NYU Law degree even though it's not quite as prestigious.

The third tier are schools that really aren't well known for anything in business. A Yale MBA kind of tarnishes the prestige of the JD as the b school is nothing to write home about, and Cornell, Duke, UVA and Georgetown really don't have any distinguishing features for their business schools. They aren't bad schools, but it's questionable whether or not you will actually be able to lever the MBA to make more money or get a better career going in the future. It's not worth it if it's unlikely that you can use that degree to lever into something better than the firm you would otherwise be working at anyway.

The info comes from experience as I'm a joint degree student. I worked in investment banking before law school and made my choice very carefully.

Ya, I haven't been through the process yet, but I expect to later on. And this is basically the same thing that has been said to me multiple times to others in the industry.

I will be starting a joint JD/Masters program next fall. I've done a lot of research (just like what you're doing) and here's what I've found:

The general consensus seems to be that a JD/MBA is not really worthwhile. However, most people I've asked have said that a JD/Masters of Taxation program (which is what I'm doing) is a really good idea if you want to do tax work. I currently attend Ole Miss as an undergrad and will be starting law school here in the fall. I'll give you the scoop on how our joint JD programs work. Keep in mind that this is just for my school, although I imagine most schools would do something similar.

- To do the joint program, you need to submit a separate application to both schools. This means taking the LSAT and the GMAT. However, since first year law students take required law classes for their first year, you can defer your application to the Masters program until you're actually ready to start taking your Masters classes
- They charge law school tuition for both programs when you do the joint program.
- Two of your masters classes count towards your law degree and two of your law classes count towards your masters degree for a total of 4 fewer classes than you would have to take if you did the two programs separately. Thus you get two degrees for roughly one semester's worth of additional classes.


As for usefulness of a JD/MBA, I would think a prestigious Masters program can help make up for a not-so-prestigious JD - at least that's what I'll be banking on.

Hope that helps!

Not questioning your list but hoping you would clarify- is your reason for differentiation between these groups based on any details of the JD/MBA programs themselves or are you just commenting on the rank of B schools and deciding which of those are definitely worth it and so on? If it is the latter I'm a little confused as I'm under the impression that if you had to try and make an apples to apples comparison, Darden is equivalent in business world to UVA in law and same with Fuqua at Duke. If the benefit of the JD MBA is to expand hiring options wouldn't Darden/Fuqua be strong enough to facilitate non-law corporate interviews despite not being the leader in any field, such as finance,marketing etc?

Thanks for the info

HamDel wrote:I think the JD/MBA at Northwestern is really worthwhile. There's a not insignificant chance that you won't want to be a tax lawyer forever, and having the MBA if you decide you want to get out of there will be very helpful.

As some other posters have alluded to, the question of whether it's worth it even at T14 schools is open. In my opinion, the breakdown is like this:

Definitely Worth It
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Northwestern

Possibly Worth It
NYU
Michigan
Berkeley

Probably Not Worth It
Yale
Virginia
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown

Not Worth It
Anywhere Else

CanadianWolf wrote:Curious as to why some write that JD/MBA degrees are not worthwhile. Are these comments just referring to OCI recruiting ? Any real world experience behind those opinions ? Thanks !

Anecdotal evidence I have heard with regard to 4 year JD/MBA programs is that employers have difficulty with the summer -> full time employment timeline.

There are probably a few reasons for this that I will speculate about a bit:
1) Legal employers are very accustomed to OCI at the beginning of 2L which culminates in offers for post 3L employment. They are going to have to sacrifice an offer slot for one of their summers in the following year if they make you an offer.
2) The summer between 3L and your 2nd year of b-school is an opportunity for you to undertake yet another business or legal internship. This means potential competition for your 2L summer employer for your services.
3) 4 year joint degree students may be more inclined to expect something more than a JD. They have devoted an entire extra year of study, generally spent more on tuition, and forewent potential income. This may make them more likely to expect second year associate standing or an additional bonus.

Most of these problems don't happen with 3 year programs because students are on the same schedule as their JD and MBA classmates.

jbriggs wrote:Not questioning your list but hoping you would clarify- is your reason for differentiation between these groups based on any details of the JD/MBA programs themselves or are you just commenting on the rank of B schools and deciding which of those are definitely worth it and so on? If it is the latter I'm a little confused as I'm under the impression that if you had to try and make an apples to apples comparison, Darden is equivalent in business world to UVA in law and same with Fuqua at Duke. If the benefit of the JD MBA is to expand hiring options wouldn't Darden/Fuqua be strong enough to facilitate non-law corporate interviews despite not being the leader in any field, such as finance,marketing etc?

Thanks for the info

HamDel wrote:I think the JD/MBA at Northwestern is really worthwhile. There's a not insignificant chance that you won't want to be a tax lawyer forever, and having the MBA if you decide you want to get out of there will be very helpful.

As some other posters have alluded to, the question of whether it's worth it even at T14 schools is open. In my opinion, the breakdown is like this:

Definitely Worth It
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Northwestern

Possibly Worth It
NYU
Michigan
Berkeley

Probably Not Worth It
Yale
Virginia
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown

Not Worth It
Anywhere Else

Admittedly no list is going to be perfect, this is just my perception and obviously all the joint degree candidates at the schools I put in the "probably not" category would disagree with me. I created this list based on a few factors. Reputation and outstanding leadership in at least one field were important to me, and I also took a look at salary info. If you get a biglaw job at Duke you will be making $160,000 a year. The average starting salary from the business school, however, is only around $120,000 a year. The Financial Times says that Duke's MBA program is ranked 15th in terms of compensation for graduates, which is not very good compared to the law school. Recruiting from top flight financial institutions etc. is just not high enough to make it likely that you will have offers that compare to law offers in terms of compensation. You may be able to use the degree to transition out after working at a law firm for a few years, but it's not going to get the eyeball pop factor that one of the very top programs will in terms of getting you an interview. Basically I think it's less obvious that the additional degree is actually going to prove valuable than the joint degree at other schools.

Since you're studying finance in undergrad you won't learn anything new if you do an MBA. The only reason for an MBA (this is a good reason though) is for the networking and resume. In order for anyone to care about it, though, you're going to need to go to a top 10 school. An MBA at anywhere else would be a repeat of your undergrad education for nothing.

HamDel wrote:

jbriggs wrote:Not questioning your list but hoping you would clarify- is your reason for differentiation between these groups based on any details of the JD/MBA programs themselves or are you just commenting on the rank of B schools and deciding which of those are definitely worth it and so on? If it is the latter I'm a little confused as I'm under the impression that if you had to try and make an apples to apples comparison, Darden is equivalent in business world to UVA in law and same with Fuqua at Duke. If the benefit of the JD MBA is to expand hiring options wouldn't Darden/Fuqua be strong enough to facilitate non-law corporate interviews despite not being the leader in any field, such as finance,marketing etc?

Thanks for the info

HamDel wrote:I think the JD/MBA at Northwestern is really worthwhile. There's a not insignificant chance that you won't want to be a tax lawyer forever, and having the MBA if you decide you want to get out of there will be very helpful.

As some other posters have alluded to, the question of whether it's worth it even at T14 schools is open. In my opinion, the breakdown is like this:

Definitely Worth It
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Northwestern

Possibly Worth It
NYU
Michigan
Berkeley

Probably Not Worth It
Yale
Virginia
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown

Not Worth It
Anywhere Else

Admittedly no list is going to be perfect, this is just my perception and obviously all the joint degree candidates at the schools I put in the "probably not" category would disagree with me. I created this list based on a few factors. Reputation and outstanding leadership in at least one field were important to me, and I also took a look at salary info. If you get a biglaw job at Duke you will be making $160,000 a year. The average starting salary from the business school, however, is only around $120,000 a year. The Financial Times says that Duke's MBA program is ranked 15th in terms of compensation for graduates, which is not very good compared to the law school. Recruiting from top flight financial institutions etc. is just not high enough to make it likely that you will have offers that compare to law offers in terms of compensation. You may be able to use the degree to transition out after working at a law firm for a few years, but it's not going to get the eyeball pop factor that one of the very top programs will in terms of getting you an interview. Basically I think it's less obvious that the additional degree is actually going to prove valuable than the joint degree at other schools.

I really question your reasoning. Part of this is a basic problem with JD/MBA's to being with - unless you have a very specific reason for wanting both degrees then it's not worth doing. The problem I have with your reasoning is that, typically, the JD/MBA will either go into business or into law. You should really make your decision based on the strength of the primary program. A JD/MBA who wants to work for a law firm would be better off going to a higher ranked law school and sacrificing the quality of the MBA - the "lesser" quality MBA won't drag down the quality of your JD for legal employers (especially if you have top grades). Moreover, a major third factor sitting out there, and unaccounted for, is the quality of your pre-JD/MBA work experience. A major problem on TLS is that it's filled with straight out of undergrads who want to tack on as many degrees as possible.

vamedic03 wrote:

HamDel wrote:

jbriggs wrote:Not questioning your list but hoping you would clarify- is your reason for differentiation between these groups based on any details of the JD/MBA programs themselves or are you just commenting on the rank of B schools and deciding which of those are definitely worth it and so on? If it is the latter I'm a little confused as I'm under the impression that if you had to try and make an apples to apples comparison, Darden is equivalent in business world to UVA in law and same with Fuqua at Duke. If the benefit of the JD MBA is to expand hiring options wouldn't Darden/Fuqua be strong enough to facilitate non-law corporate interviews despite not being the leader in any field, such as finance,marketing etc?

Thanks for the info

HamDel wrote:I think the JD/MBA at Northwestern is really worthwhile. There's a not insignificant chance that you won't want to be a tax lawyer forever, and having the MBA if you decide you want to get out of there will be very helpful.

As some other posters have alluded to, the question of whether it's worth it even at T14 schools is open. In my opinion, the breakdown is like this:

Definitely Worth It
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
Chicago
Penn
Northwestern

Possibly Worth It
NYU
Michigan
Berkeley

Probably Not Worth It
Yale
Virginia
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown

Not Worth It
Anywhere Else

Admittedly no list is going to be perfect, this is just my perception and obviously all the joint degree candidates at the schools I put in the "probably not" category would disagree with me. I created this list based on a few factors. Reputation and outstanding leadership in at least one field were important to me, and I also took a look at salary info. If you get a biglaw job at Duke you will be making $160,000 a year. The average starting salary from the business school, however, is only around $120,000 a year. The Financial Times says that Duke's MBA program is ranked 15th in terms of compensation for graduates, which is not very good compared to the law school. Recruiting from top flight financial institutions etc. is just not high enough to make it likely that you will have offers that compare to law offers in terms of compensation. You may be able to use the degree to transition out after working at a law firm for a few years, but it's not going to get the eyeball pop factor that one of the very top programs will in terms of getting you an interview. Basically I think it's less obvious that the additional degree is actually going to prove valuable than the joint degree at other schools.

I really question your reasoning. Part of this is a basic problem with JD/MBA's to being with - unless you have a very specific reason for wanting both degrees then it's not worth doing. The problem I have with your reasoning is that, typically, the JD/MBA will either go into business or into law. You should really make your decision based on the strength of the primary program. A JD/MBA who wants to work for a law firm would be better off going to a higher ranked law school and sacrificing the quality of the MBA - the "lesser" quality MBA won't drag down the quality of your JD for legal employers (especially if you have top grades). Moreover, a major third factor sitting out there, and unaccounted for, is the quality of your pre-JD/MBA work experience. A major problem on TLS is that it's filled with straight out of undergrads who want to tack on as many degrees as possible.

I get what you're saying, but I think you've misinterpreted my point. I don't think a JD/MBA is a good idea for someone who doesn't know what he wants to do under any circumstances. Obviously everyone will have to choose either law or business after the program is completed, and I agree with you that it makes sense to pay attention to the strength of the degree that you will more likely apply. My point is that if you're going to do it you need to be getting the most bang for your buck from both, because if one is relatively weak it's less likely to play a positive role in your career development either immediately or later on. The purpose of the joint degree for many people is to facilitate a transition at some point down the line, and if both degrees aren't strong enough that it will make such a switch more likely then the combo isn't really worth it.

I personally think it's somewhat wasteful to get the law degree and then not practice for at least a little while. You don't get any lawyer skills from law school, so while you will have the degree you won't be armed with much else. I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but I can't imagine going through this whole thing and then heading straight back into banking. I want to be a lawyer for a while because I think the law degree and a couple years of practice provide a really good knowledge base for a more senior executive. I chose my program because I think the reputation of both the law and business schools and the extremely valuable b school network will give me a good opportunity to transition from my law firm back into a business role if I choose not to go back to my bank.

Basically I chose my school because both the law and b schools are in unquestionably excellent, and I think that will give me the power I need from both degrees down the line. I agree 100% that the joint program isn't for everyone, and it's an especially bad option for someone who doesn't have solid work experience along with some goal in mind or at least a clear idea of a path they want to take one way or another.

Interesting .... When you guys mean work experience does it legitimately mean working after receiving your undergraduate degree? The reason why I ask is because I did a three summer paid internship with JP Morgan, would this count as work experience to pursue a JD/MBA?

artfuldodger23 wrote:Interesting .... When you guys mean work experience does it legitimately mean working after receiving your undergraduate degree? The reason why I ask is because I did a three summer paid internship with JP Morgan, would this count as work experience to pursue a JD/MBA?

There is practically no one, at any good MBA program, who doesn't at least have 2 years of work experience. Especially at the top programs like NU. Now, there are a select few who are able to do it, but it's an extremely unique individual. For Kellogg most people will have had 2+ years of consulting, BB-IB, entreprenuership, etc. JP Morgan internships aren't going to cut it.

artfuldodger23 wrote:Interesting .... When you guys mean work experience does it legitimately mean working after receiving your undergraduate degree? The reason why I ask is because I did a three summer paid internship with JP Morgan, would this count as work experience to pursue a JD/MBA?

No, summer internships (paid or unpaid) do not count as full time work experience. Kellogg didn't have anyone with less than 3 years of full time work experience at matriculation in their last class. IIRC the only top school that lets in a non trivial number of straight through students is Harvard (still not a large #), and they generally have extremely good statistics.

The general consensus seems to be that joint degree is not such a great idea. I am on the track for doing the five year MFA (masters of finance) program at Tulane anyways, so would it be a more sound option just to get my MFA, take the LSAT, and go to Law School and then come out as a successful/legit tax or corporate lawyer?

pappathizz wrote:The general consensus seems to be that joint degree is not such a great idea. I am on the track for doing the five year MFA (masters of finance) program at Tulane anyways, so would it be a more sound option just to get my MFA, take the LSAT, and go to Law School and then come out as a successful/legit tax or corporate lawyer?

Do you get your MFA concurrently with your BA? If you do, use the time to increase your GPA as much as possible, otherwise you should consider what benefit the MFA will bring you as a corporate/tax lawyer.

bdubs wrote:

pappathizz wrote:The general consensus seems to be that joint degree is not such a great idea. I am on the track for doing the five year MFA (masters of finance) program at Tulane anyways, so would it be a more sound option just to get my MFA, take the LSAT, and go to Law School and then come out as a successful/legit tax or corporate lawyer?

Do you get your MFA concurrently with your BA? If you do, use the time to increase your GPA as much as possible, otherwise you should consider what benefit the MFA will bring you as a corporate/tax lawyer.

It is in fact a concurrent program with my BA degree so looks like I can definitely kill two birds with one stone here. I would expect with the MFA I could get great work experience, within that I can get to know the business world and experience it as well through both the legal and business aspects of it, and moreover see if its ultimately for me, right?

pappathizz wrote:

bdubs wrote:

pappathizz wrote:The general consensus seems to be that joint degree is not such a great idea. I am on the track for doing the five year MFA (masters of finance) program at Tulane anyways, so would it be a more sound option just to get my MFA, take the LSAT, and go to Law School and then come out as a successful/legit tax or corporate lawyer?

Do you get your MFA concurrently with your BA? If you do, use the time to increase your GPA as much as possible, otherwise you should consider what benefit the MFA will bring you as a corporate/tax lawyer.

It is in fact a concurrent program with my BA degree so looks like I can definitely kill two birds with one stone here. I would expect with the MFA I could get great work experience, within that I can get to know the business world and experience it as well through both the legal and business aspects of it, and moreover see if its ultimately for me, right?

Talk to people you trust, but I think the JD/MBA would be overkill if you're already doing that.