NLJ 250 firms Chart (2010)
Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:27 pm
Is there a NLJ 250 chart for 2010? The one that shows the placement by schools in each legal market? I keep seeing the 2008 one and was wondering if there is an updated chart?
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you beat me to it!
This is awesome, bk. Thanks man.bk187 wrote:If I am correct, the graph you are referring to was published in 2008 but it is based on the graduating class of 2005 data.
Article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0005508582
Graph: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf
I'm curious as to why you feel that this chart isn't enough. While yes the economy has changed, but in a given market the schools are still looked at in the same hierarchy today that they were 5-6 years ago. This graph is also a decent marker of regionality (it groups schools by the market they primarily place into and then puts a percentage based on how much of the graduating class finds work in the state where the school is located) and I doubt that that has changed significantly in the past 5-6 years either.
I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.bk187 wrote:If I am correct, the graph you are referring to was published in 2008 but it is based on the graduating class of 2005 data.
Article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0005508582
Graph: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf
I'm curious as to why you feel that this chart isn't enough. While yes the economy has changed, but in a given market the schools are still looked at in the same hierarchy today that they were 5-6 years ago. This graph is also a decent marker of regionality (it groups schools by the market they primarily place into and then puts a percentage based on how much of the graduating class finds work in the state where the school is located) and I doubt that that has changed significantly in the past 5-6 years either.
Invaluable? My point was that the value is minimal.sparty99 wrote:I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.
sparty99 wrote:Is there a NLJ 250 chart for 2010? The one that shows the placement by schools in each legal market? I keep seeing the 2008 one and was wondering if there is an updated chart?
There are great jobs not in the NLJ250, the problem is that the number of non-NLJ250 jobs that can help someone pay down $200,000+ in debt is minimal so using the NLJ250 is about the best approximation we get (once clerkships are factored in). It is also helpful in ranking schools against each other and is another source of information.Logic STUD wrote:Remember that there's a lot of great law job that are not counted in the NLJ 250, the chart is widely considered not very useful.
I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.bk187 wrote:Invaluable? My point was that the value is minimal.sparty99 wrote:I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.
Unless the point is to see how much of the schools ranked 51-200 get biglaw and then that is really pointless.
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.
Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...bk187 wrote:You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.
Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.sparty99 wrote:See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...bk187 wrote:You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.
Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
It's not foolish to try for biglaw out of SMU (which I would classify as only slightly below the other top regional schools in terms of placement and definitely above its peers in the USNWR rankings) or any school for that matter. At places like SMU/GW/WUSTL/Fordham/etc you have a small, but possible shot. The point is that it is still unlikely. You are still significantly more likely to miss biglaw than hit. It gets even worse when you drop down to schools that pretty much require you to get top 5% or 10%.sparty99 wrote:See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...
If you have a job and are able to cash flow your legal education it is....A $65,000 - $70,000 salary can have you graduating debt free or probably less than $20,000 in debt. A law degree (from a solid instution like SMU) and no debt sounds much better than a law degree, no job, $200,000 in debt. I'm not saying SMU is better or worse than Michigan, but I am saying that a school like that can get you into big law just as michigan can. Yes, true. It is much tougher at SMU to achieve that.Desert Fox wrote:SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.sparty99 wrote:See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...bk187 wrote:You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.
Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
Comparing someone who has a good paying job in a city with a good part time program to someone paying sticker elsewhere isn't a fair comparison. It's a special case.sparty99 wrote:If you have a job and are able to cash flow your legal education it is....A $65,000 - $70,000 salary can have you graduating debt free or probably less than $20,000 in debt. A law degree (from a solid instution like SMU) and no debt sounds much better than a law degree, no job, $200,000 in debt. I'm not saying SMU is better or worse than Michigan, but I am saying that a school like that can get you into big law just as michigan can. Yes, true. It is much tougher at SMU to achieve that.Desert Fox wrote:SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.sparty99 wrote:See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...bk187 wrote:
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.
At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
zonto wrote:Sorry. You're wrong. On TLS there is only one way: douchebaggery.
zonto wrote:Sorry. You're wrong. On TLS there is only one way: douchebaggery.