Pre-med to pre-law? Forum

vahopeful2012 · Post by **vahopeful2012** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:38 pm

I'm a long-time lurker but this is my first post here. I'm wondering about going to law school over medical school. I came into a 3rd tier college (full-ride was the only reason) pre-law, but switched to pre-med my sophomore year due to my parents' pressuring me. They are both doctors and are scared about the job market for lawyers. I'm in my second semester junior year and have registered for the MCAT in May. However, I'm having serious second-thoughts about pursuing medicine. My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc. I have a 3.9 as a biochemistry major and managed A's in all my science classes.

I took a diagnostic LSAT and got a 163, missing only 2 in the logic games section. So I guess my main question concerns the job prospects for a lawyer and how you would recommend me to switch to the law admissions process. Most of my extracurriculars involve volunteering at a free clinic and hospital, in addition to serving on the exec board for the pre-med club. Any and all advice is welcome!

tourdeforcex · Post by **tourdeforcex** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:44 pm

small opinion in a big world: if you have the passion and drive to finish a MD, you are more secure than investing in 3 years in law school. simply look at acceptance rate for med schools vs. law schools

really it comes down to this: consider what you have a comparative advantage. consider what you are passionate about. get in that space that is shared.

just thought of another thing: joint MD/JD programs.

rman1201 · Post by **rman1201** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:48 pm

vahopeful2012 wrote:I'm a long-time lurker but this is my first post here. I'm wondering about going to law school over medical school. I came into a 3rd tier college (full-ride was the only reason) pre-law, but switched to pre-med my sophomore year due to my parents' pressuring me. They are both doctors and are scared about the job market for lawyers. I'm in my second semester junior year and have registered for the MCAT in May. However, I'm having serious second-thoughts about pursuing medicine. My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc. I have a 3.9 as a biochemistry major and managed A's in all my science classes.

I took a diagnostic LSAT and got a 163, missing only 2 in the logic games section. So I guess my main question concerns the job prospects for a lawyer and how you would recommend me to switch to the law admissions process. Most of my extracurriculars involve volunteering at a free clinic and hospital, in addition to serving on the exec board for the pre-med club. Any and all advice is welcome!

If you can study and pull up that LSAT (I'm sure you can), you'll be able to get into the very top schools with that 3.9 in Biochem. That said, your job prospects shouldn't be that awful. Still nowhere near as good as if you went to medical school - but why do something you don't care for?

prezidentv8 · Post by **prezidentv8** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:51 pm

vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.

This sounds like a big problem.

rman1201 · Post by **rman1201** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:52 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.
This sounds like a big problem.

3.9 in Biochem + blood/gut avoidance = Pharmacy School

Verisimi · Post by **Verisimi** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:55 pm

I got around that diag score; it should be VERY possible to get a 99th percentile score and get into a T6 law school. However, that isn't a good enough reason for going to law school. You don't have to deal with blood and guts as a doctor. Do research and try to talk to some doctors and lawyers. You're not going to get very sound advice from undergrad students.

tourdeforcex · Post by **tourdeforcex** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:55 pm

rman1201 wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
vahopeful2012 wrote:My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.
This sounds like a big problem.
3.9 in Biochem + blood/gut avoidance = Pharmacy School

this seems credited.

Alex-Trof · Post by **Alex-Trof** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:03 pm

It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money. That said, if you get an MD from any school, you are almost guaranteed to have a well-paid and respected job for at least some foreseeable future. Same cannot be said about law schools. If will need to go to at least t14 (+ UCLA, UT, Vandy, etc...) and do better than most students there to be almost guaranteed a well-paid and respected job.

In my view, any MD from any school = top law school degree with top grades when it comes to career prospects and earning potential.

rman1201 · Post by **rman1201** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:08 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money. That said, if you get an MD from any school, you are almost guaranteed to have a well-paid and respected job for at least some foreseeable future. Same cannot be said about law schools. If will need to go to at least t14 (+ UCLA, UT, Vandy, etc...) and do better than most students there to be almost guaranteed a well-paid and respected job.

In my view, any MD from any school = top law school degree with top grades when it comes to career prospects and earning potential.

Idk about that. Once you factor in ~10 years of not making great money as a Doctor (Residency + Med School) + Malpractice Insurance I think things somewhat even out when compared to a T-14 grad who starts Biglaw and remains in private practice (or even goes In-House).

Edit: RC fail. I thought you said >, not =.

Bildungsroman · Post by **Bildungsroman** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:12 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money.

This isn't a Disney movie. We're all adults looking for successful careers where we can support ourselves. I'm having trouble thinking of any career where getting into it to make money would be a matter of ethics (excluding obviously illegal/unethical extensions of that concept like getting into politics to make money through kickbacks).

Alex-Trof · Post by **Alex-Trof** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:23 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money.
This isn't a Disney movie. We're all adults looking for successful careers where we can support ourselves. I'm having trouble thinking of any career where getting into it to make money would be a matter of ethics (excluding obviously illegal/unethical extensions of that concept like getting into politics to make money through kickbacks).

"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm." - Hippocratic Oath.

I actually agree with you about most jobs, but I do believe medicine should be viewed differently.

Bildungsroman · Post by **Bildungsroman** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:26 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money.
This isn't a Disney movie. We're all adults looking for successful careers where we can support ourselves. I'm having trouble thinking of any career where getting into it to make money would be a matter of ethics (excluding obviously illegal/unethical extensions of that concept like getting into politics to make money through kickbacks).
"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm." - Hippocratic Oath.

I actually agree with you about most jobs, but I do believe medicine should be viewed differently.

The Hippocratic Oath is completely compatible with joining the preofession to make money. By becoming a doctor to make money you still sign on to any special obligations, including ethical requirements. As long as you abide by those special obligations, it doesn't matter what motivated you to get into the profession.

vahopeful2012 · Post by **vahopeful2012** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:28 pm

Thanks for the replies. I think I should've been a little more specific in why I'm asking about law school. It's not that I just randomly said "hey, how about law school." I've always enjoyed undergrad/high school government classes and while I know they're not like law school classes from what I've read on this forum, I don't enjoy my science classes. Last week, I read through the Supreme Court opinion on the Westboro Baptist group just for enjoyment (OK, I realize that sounds insane but it's true).

Again, I'm just worried about the competition for jobs, but I guess the same goes for med students trying to get those competitive specialties that don't deal with the "nastier" aspects of medicine. I think my dilemma is that I am interested in the knowledge of medicine (diseases, etc), but I do not enjoy learning the science behind it or the patient contact, as mentioned in my above post.

Money is a factor and while I think doctors need to go into medicine for more than just that, I don't see anything wrong with doctors wanting a nice salary for the extremely long, grueling education they must go through...

Alex-Trof · Post by **Alex-Trof** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:38 pm

Bildungsroman wrote: The Hippocratic Oath is completely compatible with joining the preofession to make money. By becoming a doctor to make money you still sign on to any special obligations, including ethical requirements. As long as you abide by those special obligations, it doesn't matter what motivated you to get into the profession.

But for some reason it is MD's who are made to swear to help all members of society regardless of circumstances not lawyers, or engineers, or even teachers.

I have nothing against people wanting to make a lot of money (doctors included), but if you are a doctor for the sole purpose of making a lot of money, I don't think I will be friends with you.

rman1201 · Post by **rman1201** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:43 pm

vahopeful2012 wrote:Thanks for the replies. I think I should've been a little more specific in why I'm asking about law school. It's not that I just randomly said "hey, how about law school." I've always enjoyed undergrad/high school government classes and while I know they're not like law school classes from what I've read on this forum, I don't enjoy my science classes. Last week, I read through the Supreme Court opinion on the Westboro Baptist group just for enjoyment (OK, I realize that sounds insane but it's true).

Again, I'm just worried about the competition for jobs, but I guess the same goes for med students trying to get those competitive specialties that don't deal with the "nastier" aspects of medicine. I think my dilemma is that I am interested in the knowledge of medicine (diseases, etc), but I do not enjoy learning the science behind it or the patient contact, as mentioned in my above post.

Money is a factor and while I think doctors need to go into medicine for more than just that, I don't see anything wrong with doctors wanting a nice salary for the extremely long, grueling education they must go through...

If law is what you're passionate about then go for it. As I've stated earlier, you'll probably be fine. There's a major difference between someone with a 3.0 in lib arts and a 150 lsat who just wants to go to law school because they can't get a job, and someone with actual talent who likes law.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:48 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:
Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money.
This isn't a Disney movie. We're all adults looking for successful careers where we can support ourselves. I'm having trouble thinking of any career where getting into it to make money would be a matter of ethics (excluding obviously illegal/unethical extensions of that concept like getting into politics to make money through kickbacks).
"I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm." - Hippocratic Oath.

I actually agree with you about most jobs, but I do believe medicine should be viewed differently.

REally. You don't think that 9/10 doctors are doing it for prestiege/money?
Thats not to say they don't give it 110% and do important stuff etc etc... but what do you think most people's initial motivation is in deciding to become a doctor?

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:49 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote: The Hippocratic Oath is completely compatible with joining the preofession to make money. By becoming a doctor to make money you still sign on to any special obligations, including ethical requirements. As long as you abide by those special obligations, it doesn't matter what motivated you to get into the profession.
But for some reason it is MD's who are made to swear to help all members of society regardless of circumstances not lawyers, or engineers, or even teachers.

I have nothing against people wanting to make a lot of money (doctors included), but if you are a doctor for the sole purpose of making a lot of money, I don't think I will be friends with you.

+10000. This is why I don't like when people compare medicine to law and say "go into medicine because you're certain to make a lot of money". It's one thing to have that drive you to do business or law. But to have it be your motivating goal for being a doctor--that's scary. I believe it's one of the reasons why we have so many doctors who are intelligent, but really don't give a damn about their patients. When your job is to save people's lives that's a real problem. The oath comment was right on point.

sighsigh · Post by **sighsigh** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:50 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money. That said, if you get an MD from any school, you are almost guaranteed to have a well-paid and respected job for at least some foreseeable future. Same cannot be said about law schools. If will need to go to at least t14 (+ UCLA, UT, Vandy, etc...) and do better than most students there to be almost guaranteed a well-paid and respected job.

In my view, any MD from any school = top law school degree with top grades when it comes to career prospects and earning potential.

Not really.

mez06 · Post by **mez06** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:54 pm

no offense, but you're an idiot for not wanting to be a MD. Make the world a better place and at least get a JD/MD.

cmraider · Post by **cmraider** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:56 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:It is somewhat less ethical, IMO, to be a doctor to make money than it is to be a lawyer to make money. That said, if you get an MD from any school, you are almost guaranteed to have a well-paid and respected job for at least some foreseeable future. Same cannot be said about law schools. If will need to go to at least t14 (+ UCLA, UT, Vandy, etc...) and do better than most students there to be almost guaranteed a well-paid and respected job.

In my view, any MD from any school = top law school degree with top grades when it comes to career prospects and earning potential.

I have a friend who is in his second year of med school, and he said he doesn't expect to make what people consider "doctor" money until he's 32 (started med school at 22). He said that during residency you can expect to work 80-100 hour weeks for about $40,000/yr. Still, I guess making six figures by the time you're 32 isn't that bad of a deal.

I just wanted to point out that a lot of people on these boards suggest that M.D.>J.D. in regards to money, jobs, etc., but if my friend is correct, that's not necessarily the case. My understanding is there's a much larger portion of LS grads making big bucks right out of school than M.D.s.

EDIT: Also, med school is generally more expensive than law school.

CP2323 · Post by **CP2323** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:59 pm

I know the job prospects are better for Doctors but don't discount the cost associated with becoming a doctor.

I have two friends that are both becoming surgeons (I forget what type but its one of the ones that begins with an "O"

) They both are very poor since they are still residents and making very limited income. Plus they have loans that are generally just as large as going to the best Law Schools.

Also, I have several family friends who are Doctors and make 200K+ but they also pay so much in malpractice insurance and have to deal with so much red tape that they say it really isn't worth it. Most of them say if they could go back and redo it they would of went into business.

phillaw · Post by **phillaw** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:09 pm

med students touch dead people. can you do that? don't go to med school unless you can. also, law school is a piece of cake compared to med school, though IMO, law school is more intellectually stimulating because of policy discussions that appear in almost every case. do you like policy-based problem solving or physics-based problem-solving?

the key, as you will find discussed on this site, is maximizing your law school education--best education for least dollars expended. emphasis on least dollars expended.

anyway, don't make a decision based on speculation of which job will make you richer. smart people doing what they enjoy can get rich if they want to, and be happy. smart people doing what they do not like can also get rich if they want to, but they will not be happy.

Alex-Trof · Post by **Alex-Trof** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:18 pm

Since everyone is telling personal anecdotes...

I know a guy who is a neurosurgeon. He is 40. I often see him out on weekends popping bottles at the VIP. He drives a brand-new McLaren, own a condo here (Scottsdale) and a house in Laguna Beach. He tells girl that his net worth is 22 mil. Not sure if it is true but he is fairly loaded, can care less about his job, and half of the time is drunk out of his mind hitting on cocktail waitresses half of his age.

sanjola · Post by **sanjola** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:59 pm

Alex-Trof wrote:Since everyone is telling personal anecdotes...

I know a guy who is a neurosurgeon. He is 40. I often see him out on weekends popping bottles at the VIP. He drives a brand-new McLaren, own a condo here (Scottsdale) and a house in Laguna Beach. He tells girl that his net worth is 22 mil. Not sure if it is true but he is fairly loaded, can care less about his job, and half of the time is drunk out of his mind hitting on cocktail waitresses half of his age.

That's just sad.

waitlisteddd · Post by **waitlisteddd** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:58 pm

if you aren't passionate about medicine and hate blood, how are you going to get through med school??

do what you are passionate about. end of story.

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