Top Law Schools

Does ranking at all correlate to difficulty?

no real grades --> easier.
more required credits --> harder.

ranking -> stronger competition -> harder.

Low ranked schools, like T3's and T4's are incredibly difficult. Let's face it, the kids at Michigan may be five times as smart as the kids at Cooley, but the kid's at Cooley study 10 times more. T4 students aren't blind to the facts; they know that the top 1-5% get jobs or transfer up, and everyone wants to be in it. Also remember, everyone at any law school is a college graduate, these are Taco Bell employees.

Never think because you got into a T-14 and went to a Tier 2/3/4 you will automatically finish top of your class, or even above median. Besides, you ability to pull that 170+ doesn't help you on law school exams at all.

dailygrind wrote:ranking -> stronger competition -> harder.

except at HYS/Berkeley where there is effectively no competition...

Tsispilos wrote:

dailygrind wrote:ranking -> stronger competition -> harder.

except at HYS/Berkeley where there is effectively no competition...

Berkeley has HH (top 10%), H (next 30%), and P (bottom 60%) grades, and getting HH's and H's is more important ITE, since the middle of the class looks the same as the bottom.

Cupidity wrote:Also remember, everyone at any law school is a college graduate, these are Taco Bell employees.

JazzOne wrote:

Cupidity wrote:Also remember, everyone at any law school is a college graduate, these are Taco Bell employees.

damnit, my subconscious is acting up again.

Tsispilos wrote:

dailygrind wrote:ranking -> stronger competition -> harder.

except at HYS/Berkeley where there is effectively no competition...

I will say, I have felt competition at SLS, and people are working their asses off. This seems to be mutually reinforcing.

The competition is there, but most cutthroated-ness is tempered though by the lack of grades.

Yes, some schools are more difficult THAN others.

LSAT + UGPA predicts 20% of 1L grades. 80% is other stuff. Basically, your competition is about the same at all law schools (save for Yale and Stanford, no grades). Which means going to as best a school as possible (or in the region you want to work) is a must.

All law schools pretty much cover the same material, some on the lower end tend to teach more state and local law whilst some on the high end tend to teach more theory or whatever the bullshit the proof feels like teaching. Now because all law schools use a forced curve, the difficulty comes down to the student body, not the school. As others have said, some schools don't have real grades, which makes things less competitive by default, but i'd still think that there are some kids there who still want the most number of gold stars.

I'd wagor that baylor is harder than say, UVA, simply because baylor's students are all fighting each other for the 10-20 big law jobs that the school can get.

Cupidity wrote:Low ranked schools, like T3's and T4's are incredibly difficult. Let's face it, the kids at Michigan may be five times as smart as the kids at Cooley, but the kid's at Cooley study 10 times more. T4 students aren't blind to the facts; they know that the top 1-5% get jobs or transfer up, and everyone wants to be in it. Also remember, everyone at any law school is a college graduate, these are Taco Bell employees.

Oban wrote: I'd wagor that baylor is harder than say, UVA, simply because baylor's students are all fighting each other for the 10-20 big law jobs that the school can get.

While there is definitely a degree of truth to these statements, the reality is that most students at T10 schools are still working extraordinarily hard these days now that biglaw is no long guaranteed. There may almost be more pressure, since many of us came in believing that the quality of the school will ensure decent options, and that safety net seems to have vanished significantly while tuition has remained sky high. As odd as it may seem, a 50/50 chance may push people much harder than a 10/90 chance since the goal feels more attainable and nearly every person in your class seems ridiculously talented and accomplished. Also, there are motivations apart from biglaw that push people to do their best to get good grades (whether that's the quality of the law firm/exit options, chances at an Article III, academia prospects, etc).

While it was true in 2007 that T10 schools were laid back and nobody was concerned, that might be a luxury only afforded to Yale these days.

Cupidity wrote:Besides, you ability to pull that 170+ doesn't help you on law school exams at all.

probably why it's not the best single predictor of 1L performance. oh wait.

dailygrind wrote:

Cupidity wrote:Besides, you ability to pull that 170+ doesn't help you on law school exams at all.

probably why it's not the best single predictor of 1L performance. oh wait.

That's true, but the LSAT only correlates to first year grades at about a 16% rate. In other words, its the single strongest correlation relative to all others, but not a terribly strong correlation in absolute terms.

sundance95 wrote:

dailygrind wrote:

Cupidity wrote:Besides, you ability to pull that 170+ doesn't help you on law school exams at all.

probably why it's not the best single predictor of 1L performance. oh wait.

That's true, but the LSAT only correlates to first year grades at about a 16% rate. In other words, its the single strongest correlation relative to all others, but not a terribly strong correlation in absolute terms.

So that means I should be able to pwn the other 84% of my grades, right?

sundance95 wrote:

dailygrind wrote:

Cupidity wrote:Besides, you ability to pull that 170+ doesn't help you on law school exams at all.

probably why it's not the best single predictor of 1L performance. oh wait.

That's true, but the LSAT only correlates to first year grades at about a 16% rate. In other words, its the single strongest correlation relative to all others, but not a terribly strong correlation in absolute terms.

that's the correlation within schools. if there weren't a tight clustering of lsats at each school, the correlation would be much stronger. ray had a decent article on this, but i'm honestly too apathetic to search for it. rest assured that if we all of us went to the same gigantic school and were randomly distributed throughout the sections, you'd find a much, much stronger correlation between 1L grades and lsat.

Theoretically higher ranking means stiffer competition, but I'm unconvinced that this is a linear progression. Sure it's harder to beat the curve at Harvard than it is at Cooley, but there are a lot of smart people at just about any let's say T1-ish law school, and the law school examination process rewards skills (articulateness, for one) that the LSAT doesn't. Additionally, many lower-ranked schools enforce brutal curves to try and weed out students who are likely to fail the bar.

I wish going to a lower-ranked school would mean I would instantly pwn everyone, but the margin for error is too small, and too many people who go to law school are willing to give it everything. I guess if I really wanted to game things though I would try going PT to GULC with an undemanding job and hope my classmates have less energy to devote.

IAFG wrote:I wish going to a lower-ranked school would mean I would instantly pwn everyone, but the margin for error is too small, and too many people who go to law school are willing to give it everything. I guess if I really wanted to game things though I would try going PT to GULC with an undemanding job and hope my classmates have less energy to devote.

That's not a bad idea actually. Teach LSAT or something, and take like 2 classes per semester.

i was wondering about the above. is there some kind of job requisite while you're there? i mean if you can transfer into full time after a year seems like having a really laid back job and busting your ass off studying all day could be a route to success?

FlanAl wrote:i was wondering about the above. is there some kind of job requisite while you're there? i mean if you can transfer into full time after a year seems like having a really laid back job and busting your ass off studying all day could be a route to success?

No job requisite whatsoever.

flyingpanda wrote:

FlanAl wrote:i was wondering about the above. is there some kind of job requisite while you're there? i mean if you can transfer into full time after a year seems like having a really laid back job and busting your ass off studying all day could be a route to success?

No job requisite whatsoever.

Can you take loans for living expenses? I mean, you're going to drop a fortune on Gulc anyway. What's another year if you can pwn your grades?

JazzOne wrote:

flyingpanda wrote:

FlanAl wrote:i was wondering about the above. is there some kind of job requisite while you're there? i mean if you can transfer into full time after a year seems like having a really laid back job and busting your ass off studying all day could be a route to success?

No job requisite whatsoever.

Can you take loans for living expenses? I mean, you're going to drop a fortune on Gulc anyway. What's another year if you can pwn your grades?

I think if you factor in some opportunity cost, you may reconsider this though. I mean if you can graduate above the school median after 3 years and earn a reasonable amount of money in the 4th year, it is better so than staying in school for 4 years.

tea_drinker wrote:

JazzOne wrote:

flyingpanda wrote:

FlanAl wrote:i was wondering about the above. is there some kind of job requisite while you're there? i mean if you can transfer into full time after a year seems like having a really laid back job and busting your ass off studying all day could be a route to success?

No job requisite whatsoever.

Can you take loans for living expenses? I mean, you're going to drop a fortune on Gulc anyway. What's another year if you can pwn your grades?

I think if you factor in some opportunity cost, you may reconsider this though. I mean if you can graduate above the school median after 3 years and earn a reasonable amount of money in the 4th year, it is better so than staying in school for 4 years.

you can work while you're in school pt. you just don't work much for the first two years, and after you've secured a good gpa, then you start working.