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LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:17 am
by LawProfessor123
(I have cross posted this on autoadmit.)
I am seriously considering putting the E&E for my course as a "required" text. I imagine that 80% of the reading assignments will come from the casebook, but for 20% of the assignments, the E&E does a better job.
However, the E&E costs 40 dollars or so. I am not sure whether it's fair to do this. The E&E is pedagogically better, but students may resent purchasing a book that is the primary text for only 4-5 class assignments.
However, I imagine most students will buy at least one supplement, so why not just require the E&E? Also, I like the E&E questions, and even though everyone has the answer to them, I'd like to assign a few E&E questions every so often for discussion purposes.
Let me know what you think about having to buy an E&E (in addition to an expensive casebook) and I'll gladly reply to any reasonable questions you may have.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:19 am
by thecilent
Why not just recommend it, and not require any discussion questions be done from them, but go over them anyway.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:33 am
by LawProfessor123
Cilent21 wrote:Why not just recommend it, and not require any discussion questions be done from them, but go over them anyway.
My concern is that the discussion questions are fairly detailed and it would be easier if everyone had them in front of him or her. Also, it seems unfair if a student has the book explanation to study from for the exam, but other's don't. I think the remedy is requiring the book for all, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:36 am
by thecilent
LawProfessor123 wrote:Cilent21 wrote:Why not just recommend it, and not require any discussion questions be done from them, but go over them anyway.
My concern is that the discussion questions are fairly detailed and it would be easier if everyone had them in front of him or her. Also, it seems unfair if a student has the book explanation to study from for the exam, but other's don't. I think the remedy is requiring the book for all, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
Hmm I have opinions on this, but I am going to defer to someone in law school for you...
btw If you are real, I like how you post on TLS to ask/answer questions.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:41 am
by LawProfessor123
Cilent21 wrote:LawProfessor123 wrote:Cilent21 wrote:Why not just recommend it, and not require any discussion questions be done from them, but go over them anyway.
My concern is that the discussion questions are fairly detailed and it would be easier if everyone had them in front of him or her. Also, it seems unfair if a student has the book explanation to study from for the exam, but other's don't. I think the remedy is requiring the book for all, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
Hmm I have opinions on this, but I am going to defer to someone in law school for you...
btw If you are real, I like how you post on TLS to ask/answer questions.
Other professors tell me what students "really" think, administrators tell me what students "really" think, and so on, but it's nice to hear straight from students sometimes.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:43 am
by thecilent
LawProfessor123 wrote:Cilent21 wrote:LawProfessor123 wrote:Cilent21 wrote:Why not just recommend it, and not require any discussion questions be done from them, but go over them anyway.
My concern is that the discussion questions are fairly detailed and it would be easier if everyone had them in front of him or her. Also, it seems unfair if a student has the book explanation to study from for the exam, but other's don't. I think the remedy is requiring the book for all, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
Hmm I have opinions on this, but I am going to defer to someone in law school for you...
btw If you are real, I like how you post on TLS to ask/answer questions.
Other professors tell me what students "really" think, administrators tell me what students "really" think, and so on, but it's nice to hear straight from students sometimes.
haha I hear ya. Well I hope you get some good answers (I'll let this serve as another friendly bump for you).
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:48 am
by LawProfessor123
Cilent21 wrote:
haha I hear ya. Well I hope you get some good answers (I'll let this serve as another friendly bump for you).
Perhaps when more folks are awake
.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:49 am
by prezidentv8
If you're real, then my initial thoughts on the matter are that an extra 40 or so dollars means nothing on top of the tens of thosands that the ol legal education is costin. So just require the book.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:00 am
by manbearwig
prezidentv8 wrote:If you're real, then my initial thoughts on the matter are that an extra 40 or so dollars means nothing on top of the tens of thosands that the ol legal education is costin. So just require the book.
+1
Also, if they had to, couldn't students technically share the book or use the library copy?
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:14 am
by itzjulz
Don't let the cost defray you from requiring the text if you think it's the best way for your students to grasp the material. If the school you teach at is anything like mine, there's a pretty active "underground" market for buying and selling supplements through our list serv -- I can usually pick up an E&E from a former student of the class for around $10 or $15.
I would recommend making the E&E a requirement, rather than a recommendation. I had a professor last semester who recommended a particular hornbook, and then in class used several examples from said book. It took us a while to realize he was pulling everything from that source, and I feel bad for anyone who never realized it, as the rest of the hornbook was spot on to the key points the professor made throughout the semester. It may give some students an advantage (fair or unfair is up for debate) if the E&E is only made optional.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:47 am
by 094320
..
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:23 am
by Total Litigator
By requiring the E&E, you are taking away my competitive advantage. Not cool.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:22 am
by TTTiTTTs
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:28 am
by 270910
I think opinions on this will vary widely. I know people who see textbook cost / heft / hassle as a necessary 'cost of doing business' basically no matter the magnitude, but I also know people who deeply resent the costs and inefficiencies inherent in the system.
At the end of the day, I'd be more concerned about the fact that assigning an E&E might look unbecoming. I realize that's an awful though, but I think there might be some snickering (from colleagues and students) about assigning a supplement as required. I don't doubt the pedagogical value it might have, it just seems like the "tradition" is to let students discover that value (or not) on their own terms, so assigning it would be overtly iconoclastic.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:34 am
by shortporch
LawProfessor123 wrote:I am seriously considering putting the E&E for my course as a "required" text. I imagine that 80% of the reading assignments will come from the casebook, but for 20% of the assignments, the E&E does a better job.
However, the E&E costs 40 dollars or so. I am not sure whether it's fair to do this. The E&E is pedagogically better, but students may resent purchasing a book that is the primary text for only 4-5 class assignments.
However, I imagine most students will buy at least one supplement, so why not just require the E&E? Also, I like the E&E questions, and even though everyone has the answer to them, I'd like to assign a few E&E questions every so often for discussion purposes.
Let me know what you think about having to buy an E&E (in addition to an expensive casebook) and I'll gladly reply to any reasonable questions you may have.
I'd dispute this. I'm not sure that the E&E is going to be "pedagogically better." It might spoon-feed material to students better, or it might make your life easier, but it's not going to allow students to grapple with case law and reach conclusions on the matters in class.
Why can't you just incorporate the E&E into your class lectures on the more difficult subjects? Seems much more intellectually honest and cheaper for the students. And I don't think "most" students necessarily have supplements; in fact, by assigning a supplement, you may end up driving students to purchase another supplement to supplement the supplement, as they think that the assigned supplement doesn't "count."
In any event, I'd be inclined to disagree.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:41 am
by atkinsa
Almost all students will buy a supplement, a lot of them will be E&E's anyway. You might as well require it and say upfront that it will be helpful for exam studying. Students spend a lot of time trying to figure out which supplement matches the professor's class best. You can save them a lot of time by telling them up front. Requiring it and pointing to other methods of obtaining the book cheaply (half.com, amazon.com, other students, etc.) rather than buying it new should dispell worries about cost for those who would not have bought a supplement otherwise. You could also mention up front that it won't be used often, so they could plan to share if cost is a factor.
I had a professor that recommended sections of an E&E and matched it up with corresponding pages in the text and indicated any points of disagreement with the E&E author. I found this to be helpful. It wasn't required reading, but the E&E was integrated into the overall class structure. If you did something like that for all sections, it would probably be even more worthwhile for the students to purchase the E&E. They would get all the information without any worry of conflicting view points.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:54 am
by Matthies
Is this a 1L class, first semester?
My thoughts, suggest the E&E as a supplement to the case book reading, but NOT required.
Place two copies on reserve at the libabary.
Put corresponding pages in syllabus to E&E as recoemdned, but not required, further reading.
If you assigned the E&E to 1Ls they will all buy it from the campus bookstore for a lot more than they could get it elsewhere, or used, or go to the libaray and read the reserve copy. Some students have a very tight budget.
Put it on the syllabus as recommended SUPPLEMENT and let them get a copy on their own (and give 2 weeks before you have any reading due from it.
Contact the publisher and see if you can get permission to copy particular hypos and use them in class, provide handouts or post to blackboard.
BUT if you do not require it, and only recommend it as a supplement, then it CAN NOT be fair game for getting exam questions/answers from. Take your exam questions only from lecture and required reading.
My 2 cents
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:17 am
by General Tso
$40 for an E&E is not something I'd resent
$40 for an annotated edition of the FRCP is something I resent
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:21 am
by miamiman
40 / 150, 000 = .00026666666666666666666666666666667
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:26 am
by 03121202698008
I wouldn't mind having the E&E required. At least it would take out the guesswork which supplement to buy.
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:32 am
by thecilent
Matthies wrote:Is this a 1L class, first semester?
My thoughts, suggest the E&E as a supplement to the case book reading, but NOT required.
Place two copies on reserve at the libabary.
Put corresponding pages in syllabus to E&E as recoemdned, but not required, further reading.
If you assigned the E&E to 1Ls they will all buy it from the campus bookstore for a lot more than they could get it elsewhere, or used, or go to the libaray and read the reserve copy. Some students have a very tight budget.
Put it on the syllabus as recommended SUPPLEMENT and let them get a copy on their own (and give 2 weeks before you have any reading due from it.
Contact the publisher and see if you can get permission to copy particular hypos and use them in class, provide handouts or post to blackboard.
BUT if you do not require it, and only recommend it as a supplement, then it CAN NOT be fair game for getting exam questions/answers from. Take your exam questions only from lecture and required reading.
My 2 cents
Re: LawProf asking one Q, answering others
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:43 pm
by Iconoclast
disco_barred wrote:... so assigning it would be overtly iconoclastic.
Yup. I would assign it!
Seriously though... I think that putting it down as "recommended" is a strong enough signal to push most students to buy it. I'm certainly not going to let 50 bucks get in the way of having a book that the professor has indicated will be valuable to my understanding of the course.
On the other hand, leaving it as recommended allows those who truly resent the associated cost to make the informed decision to save the money, despite the strong hint that it will be helpful if they get it.
