Adderall in Law School Forum

[Baylan]

^ really? is that the best you can do?

The bolded reference was obviously to prescription drugs to which a user is not prescribed.

I'm aware of what the poster was referencing. The point I am making is that its a stupid point because pretty much everyone these days uses drugs to enhance themselves.

Oh, and has been pointed out by many people legality does not equal morality.

Ok. well then your caffeine point doesn't make sense.

Baseball players who lift weights, use andro & creatine, run in the morning etc. are trying to enhance their performance. But only those players who use steroids are on trial.

Pointing out another example of arbitrariness doesn't make this example any less arbitrary.

Why is caffeine OK and Adderall not? Any reason other then legality? And if its just legality, then why the hell are you letting the government decide your morals?

The legality is a big part of it, because adderall is an illicit substance to the vast majority of people, i.e. those using it without a prescription, you cannot use it. While there are bad laws in the world, being a lawyer and passing the bar means that you generally avoid breaking them. It's not like we're talking about the civil rights movement here, we're talking about the equivalent of mental steroids.

Caffeine is widely accepted and not illicit - thus it is not an ethical violation to use it. It is widely available and legal

And as an ethical violation, it is giving you an unfair advantage over your peers while in school, which is a problem because the classes are graded on a curve. An unfair advantage that puts everyone else in the class at a disadvantage. It is a huge ethical violation.

[Nikrall]

You can't be serious?

Barring the fact that you choose every day to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness . . . (let's save the philosophical argument for another day)

There is a succinct portion of the population that abides by the law. Regardless of whether you find it moral or not, the fact that most people follow the law, gives you an unfair advantage in the academic arena if you use an illegal performance enhancing substance.

I do government imposed things all the time that I think are stupid. And I am going to pay my increased taxes and abide by new health care laws too. I may even pay my student loans even though I think they are stupid and that banks are immoral and corrupt.

I choose to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness? Sorry, I don't. I take them under consideration, but I decide my own principles of morality and fairness.

A succinct portion? I assume you must mean a large portion, but thats not quite what succinct means. Assuming you mean large portion, I don't actually think thats correct. When a cop pulls you over if he decides to be a dick he can pretty much always ticket you...because pretty much everyone is breaking some law.

What exactly makes it unfair. That its illegal? Then your argument is circular. Or is it that you do something that gives you an advantage that others choose not to do? Thats ridiculous.

If you do government imposed things you think are stupid, because you think they are morally obliged to do, you are an idiot. You more likely do them because you don't want to suffer the negative repercussions from not following the law. Same goes for your student loan argument.

[Nikrall]

The legality is a big part of it, because adderall is an illicit substance to the vast majority of people, i.e. those using it without a prescription, you cannot use it. While there are bad laws in the world, being a lawyer and passing the bar means that you generally avoid breaking them. It's not like we're talking about the civil rights movement here, we're talking about the equivalent of mental steroids.

Caffeine is widely accepted and not illicit - thus it is not an ethical violation to use it. It is widely available and legal

And as an ethical violation, it is giving you an unfair advantage over your peers while in school, which is a problem because the classes are graded on a curve. An unfair advantage that puts everyone else in the class at a disadvantage. It is a huge ethical violation.

Ugh. So your conclusion is essentially that its an ethical violation because it breaks the law? Thats absurd. Ethics are not determined by the law. Which you in fact admit with your civil rights example.

I actually don't drink coffee because it makes me nauseous. So what your saying is that everyone else had an unfair advantage over me? Oh wait...its totally fair because advantages based on legal things are A OK, but if its from something illegal, its totally not.

[Nikrall]

Query: I once went over the speed limit. Am I now unfit to be a lawyer because of gross ethical violations?

[Bildungsroman]

It seems like every two months someone makes a thread about Adderall use in law school, and a bunch of people come out of the woodwork bragging about how it helped their retard lizard brains get through college, and how they're planning on popping it like crazy for 3 years during law school. Those people are morons.

[rando]

You can't be serious?

Barring the fact that you choose every day to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness . . . (let's save the philosophical argument for another day)

There is a succinct portion of the population that abides by the law. Regardless of whether you find it moral or not, the fact that most people follow the law, gives you an unfair advantage in the academic arena if you use an illegal performance enhancing substance.

I do government imposed things all the time that I think are stupid. And I am going to pay my increased taxes and abide by new health care laws too. I may even pay my student loans even though I think they are stupid and that banks are immoral and corrupt.

I choose to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness? Sorry, I don't. I take them under consideration, but I decide my own principles of morality and fairness.

A succinct portion? I assume you must mean a large potion, but thats not quite what succinct means. Assuming you mean large potion, I don't actually think thats correct. When a cop pulls you over if he decides to be a dick he can pretty much always ticket you...because pretty much everyone is breaking some law.

What exactly makes it unfair. That its illegal? Then your argument is circular. Or is it that you do something that gives you an advantage that others choose not to do? Thats ridiculous.

If you do government imposed things you think are stupid, because you think they are morally obliged to do, you are an idiot. You more likely do them because you don't want to suffer the negative repercussions from not following the law. Same goes for your student loan argument.

Apparently you don't abide by social contract theory. Or anything slightly resembling it. It is hardly ridiculous to abide by government imposed laws because it is the moral thing to do. You are benefiting from the government and societal construct so you agree to abide by its rules.

Your circularity argument combines confuses the illegality/morality issue. While they often intertwine and form moral principles they are distinct.

Taking adderall is illegal (for the group of people we are talking about) and adderall is performance enhancing. Most people follow the law (morally). Those that do not have an advantage over those that do. Only if you take a premise that following the law is unnecessary (apparently you do), do you get to the conclusion that there is no unfair advantage.

As for the student loans argument and not failing to pay my loans because of negative repercussions. You totally fail to account for the fact that some people actually feel bound by the contracts they struck. I may think that banks are money grubbing cheats and that they are charging me high rates etc. but a "deal is a deal" so to speak.

It sounds like you pretty much do whatever the hell you want so long as you don't get caught. Have fun with that. Others have a stricter code of conduct. And we can bitch about people like you and it won't get us anywhere. At the end of the day, maybe you're right, we choose to live by a general code of conduct and you don't. You can call that smart or moral or whatever you want. First, it is criminal. Second it is professionally unethical. Third, well, I would say it is immoral, but morality is a personal construct, so I guess you are ok there.

[rando]

Query: I once went over the speed limit. Am I now unfit to be a lawyer because of gross ethical violations?

Umm..... again. You can't be serious.

This is not analogous to the framework mentioned in this thread.

[rando]

The legality is a big part of it, because adderall is an illicit substance to the vast majority of people, i.e. those using it without a prescription, you cannot use it. While there are bad laws in the world, being a lawyer and passing the bar means that you generally avoid breaking them. It's not like we're talking about the civil rights movement here, we're talking about the equivalent of mental steroids.

Caffeine is widely accepted and not illicit - thus it is not an ethical violation to use it. It is widely available and legal

And as an ethical violation, it is giving you an unfair advantage over your peers while in school, which is a problem because the classes are graded on a curve. An unfair advantage that puts everyone else in the class at a disadvantage. It is a huge ethical violation.

Ugh. So your conclusion is essentially that its an ethical violation because it breaks the law? Thats absurd. Ethics are not determined by the law. Which you in fact admit with your civil rights example.

I actually don't drink coffee because it makes me nauseous. So what your saying is that everyone else had an unfair advantage over me? Oh wait...its totally fair because advantages based on legal things are A OK, but if its from something illegal, its totally not.

You receive the benefits of living in a rule-based society. As such, you are expected to reciprocate to your fellow wo/man.

[D-ROCCA]

This thread has devolved into uselessness. Any current LS students want to weigh in on the original post?

[Bildungsroman]

This thread has devolved into uselessness. Any current LS students want to weigh in on the original post?

Perhaps you should have used the search function. The Adderall issue has been debated ad nauseum in this forum. This thread was worthless from the second it was created.

[Nikrall]

You can't be serious?

Barring the fact that you choose every day to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness . . . (let's save the philosophical argument for another day)

There is a succinct portion of the population that abides by the law. Regardless of whether you find it moral or not, the fact that most people follow the law, gives you an unfair advantage in the academic arena if you use an illegal performance enhancing substance.

I do government imposed things all the time that I think are stupid. And I am going to pay my increased taxes and abide by new health care laws too. I may even pay my student loans even though I think they are stupid and that banks are immoral and corrupt.

I choose to abide by society's principles of morality and fairness? Sorry, I don't. I take them under consideration, but I decide my own principles of morality and fairness.

A succinct portion? I assume you must mean a large potion, but thats not quite what succinct means. Assuming you mean large potion, I don't actually think thats correct. When a cop pulls you over if he decides to be a dick he can pretty much always ticket you...because pretty much everyone is breaking some law.

What exactly makes it unfair. That its illegal? Then your argument is circular. Or is it that you do something that gives you an advantage that others choose not to do? Thats ridiculous.

If you do government imposed things you think are stupid, because you think they are morally obliged to do, you are an idiot. You more likely do them because you don't want to suffer the negative repercussions from not following the law. Same goes for your student loan argument.

Apparently you don't abide by social contract theory. Or anything slightly resembling it. It is hardly ridiculous to abide by government imposed laws because it is the moral thing to do. You are benefiting from the government and societal construct so you agree to abide by its rules.

Sure I do. I just don't abide by it when the rules are absurd. Yes I believe that people get to make their own choices about whether laws or moral or not and choose to follow them. I especially believe this when it is ingesting a substance to....make you able to work better. PCP? Sure illegalize that shit, people go fucking crazy on it. Adderall....not so much.

[
Your circularity argument combines confuses the illegality/morality issue. While they often intertwine and form moral principles they are distinct.

If you believe that if something is illegal than it is immoral, as you seem to be saying, then yeah, its circular.

Taking adderall is illegal (for the group of people we are talking about) and adderall is performance enhancing. Most people follow the law (morally). Those that do not have an advantage over those that do. Only if you take a premise that following the law is unnecessary (apparently you do), do you get to the conclusion that there is no unfair advantage.

Or you can have the oh so absurd premise that if you make a choice about something that gives you less of an advantage it cannot by definition be unfair, since you made the decision.

As for the student loans argument and not failing to pay my loans because of negative repercussions. You totally fail to account for the fact that some people actually feel bound by the contracts they struck. I may think that banks are money grubbing cheats and that they are charging me high rates etc. but a "deal is a deal" so to speak.

Sorry, I was assuming you were sensible. If you feel like you have a moral obligation to entities that do not act as if they have a moral obligation to you, you are going to get fucked by life. Hard.

It sounds like you pretty much do whatever the hell you want so long as you don't get caught. Have fun with that. Others have a stricter code of conduct.

Merely because I don't base my morals on what the government thinks they should be doesn't mean that I don't have morals, or a strict code of conduct.

And we can bitch about people like you and it won't get us anywhere. At the end of the day, maybe you're right, we choose to live by a general code of conduct and you don't. You can call that smart or moral or whatever you want. First, it is criminal. Second it is professionally unethical. Third, well, I would say it is immoral, but morality is a personal construct, so I guess you are ok there.

My god, I'm a criminal! Was I a criminal from the first day that went over the speed limit? Or did I not become a true criminal until I did something truly heinous like drink before I was 21 (*gasp*) or smoke pot?

If you are in law school you aren't in a profession as of yet.

[Nikrall]

The legality is a big part of it, because adderall is an illicit substance to the vast majority of people, i.e. those using it without a prescription, you cannot use it. While there are bad laws in the world, being a lawyer and passing the bar means that you generally avoid breaking them. It's not like we're talking about the civil rights movement here, we're talking about the equivalent of mental steroids.

Caffeine is widely accepted and not illicit - thus it is not an ethical violation to use it. It is widely available and legal

And as an ethical violation, it is giving you an unfair advantage over your peers while in school, which is a problem because the classes are graded on a curve. An unfair advantage that puts everyone else in the class at a disadvantage. It is a huge ethical violation.

Ugh. So your conclusion is essentially that its an ethical violation because it breaks the law? Thats absurd. Ethics are not determined by the law. Which you in fact admit with your civil rights example.

I actually don't drink coffee because it makes me nauseous. So what your saying is that everyone else had an unfair advantage over me? Oh wait...its totally fair because advantages based on legal things are A OK, but if its from something illegal, its totally not.

You receive the benefits of living in a rule-based society. As such, you are expected to reciprocate to your fellow wo/man.

Oh sorry. I smoked pot a couple of months ago. What can I do for you to make up for it?

Point being, that rule doesn't work for things that don't have negative externalities (and no, doing well in law school doesn't count as a negative externality).

[D-ROCCA]

Perhaps you should have used the search function. The Adderall issue has been debated ad nauseum in this forum. This thread was worthless from the second it was created.

Dear Bildungsroman,

You suck.

Smooches,

D-ROCCA

[Mr. Matlock]

Screw it. I'll just stick with Riddlin. Better safe than sorry I always say.

[lonelylenore]

This thread is quite funny.

I've taken adderall before, and I can tell you exactly what it does:

1. focus very intently on anything you choose to focus on
2. cotton mouth
3. kill your appetite
4. Makes you look like your on speed
5. Keeps you awake until your body crashes on its own
6. Gives you moderate to severe anxiety

It does not make you smarter, or help you retain more information if you do not have a good memory. It only DRAMATICALLY enhances your ability to focus on one thing- whether that thing is a 500pg text book or your favorite video game... Over time though, it makes it harder for you to focus when youre not taking it, and after longer periods of use causes a pretty nasty addiction. It also rots your teeth & makes you look like a crack head. I, personally, never developed a problem, but I have 3 friends who did, one who still uses, and one with ADHD who it actually helps a great deal.

In the long term, I don't think anyone can be successful using it as a study-aid throughout ANY type of schooling. You WILL eventually crash because your body cannot handle being wired for long periods of time (I'm talking 2+ years). If you manage to do it without completely frying your brain and body, youre gonna feel like total shit coming off of it.

IMHO, it's not worth it.
Buckle down, quit being a kid and learn to focus/study on your own.

[D-ROCCA]

Gunna have to pull the plug on this one. So far we've got advice from a doctor, a philosopher, and a cop, but no law students.
/thread and /self

[Nikrall]

This thread is quite funny.

I've taken adderall before, and I can tell you exactly what it does:

1. focus very intently on anything you choose to focus on
2. cotton mouth
3. kill your appetite
4. Makes you look like your on speed
5. Keeps you awake until your body crashes on its own
6. Gives you moderate to severe anxiety

It does not make you smarter, or help you retain more information if you do not have a good memory. It only DRAMATICALLY enhances your ability to focus on one thing- whether that thing is a 500pg text book or your favorite video game... Over time though, it makes it harder for you to focus when youre not taking it, and after longer periods of use causes a pretty nasty addiction. It also rots your teeth & makes you look like a crack head. I, personally, never developed a problem, but I have 3 friends who did, one who still uses, and one with ADHD who it actually helps a great deal.

In the long term, I don't think anyone can be successful using it as a study-aid throughout ANY type of schooling. You WILL eventually crash because your body cannot handle being wired for long periods of time (I'm talking 2+ years). If you manage to do it without completely frying your brain and body, youre gonna feel like total shit coming off of it.

IMHO, it's not worth it.
Buckle down, quit being a kid and learn to focus/study on your own.

Like all drugs, adderall affects people differently, sometimes in pretty extreme ways. It doesn't do anything for me except make me want to clean, so as a studying tool it is fairly useless. It seems to help some people quite a lot, others not so much. As for eventually crashing...same thing, it depends on the person. I have a good friend of mine who is an E-head...he's done E every weekend for the last 12 years. And while doing E every weekend he managed to move from doing the photocopying in a newsroom to becoming a fairly well known finance reporter.

[Nikrall]

Gunna have to pull the plug on this one. So far we've got advice from a doctor, a philosopher, and a cop, but no law students.
/thread and /self

Eh, its less common then you'd think. It depends on who you hang out around, really. I don't know anyone who did adderall in LS, but I heard talk of some people who did it. Also I suspect some people do it and just don't talk about it...for reasons that should be clear from the reactions of some individuals in this thread.

[lonelylenore]

This thread is quite funny.

I've taken adderall before, and I can tell you exactly what it does:

1. focus very intently on anything you choose to focus on
2. cotton mouth
3. kill your appetite
4. Makes you look like your on speed
5. Keeps you awake until your body crashes on its own
6. Gives you moderate to severe anxiety

It does not make you smarter, or help you retain more information if you do not have a good memory. It only DRAMATICALLY enhances your ability to focus on one thing- whether that thing is a 500pg text book or your favorite video game... Over time though, it makes it harder for you to focus when youre not taking it, and after longer periods of use causes a pretty nasty addiction. It also rots your teeth & makes you look like a crack head. I, personally, never developed a problem, but I have 3 friends who did, one who still uses, and one with ADHD who it actually helps a great deal.

In the long term, I don't think anyone can be successful using it as a study-aid throughout ANY type of schooling. You WILL eventually crash because your body cannot handle being wired for long periods of time (I'm talking 2+ years). If you manage to do it without completely frying your brain and body, youre gonna feel like total shit coming off of it.

IMHO, it's not worth it.
Buckle down, quit being a kid and learn to focus/study on your own.

Like all drugs, adderall affects people differently, sometimes in pretty extreme ways. It doesn't do anything for me except make me want to clean, so as a studying tool it is fairly useless. It seems to help some people quite a lot, others not so much. As for eventually crashing...same thing, it depends on the person. I have a good friend of mine who is an E-head...he's done E every weekend for the last 12 years. And while doing E every weekend he managed to move from doing the photocopying in a newsroom to becoming a fairly well known finance reporter.

Very true. I'm just speaking from my own experience. As for your friend, he should be thankful he can still see straight lol

[TheBigMediocre]

Adderall?

Please, I juice and use EPO blood boosters in order to get ahead in law school.

[J.Straw from Wichita]

Where are you all going to law school? Please let me know so I can avoid you all when i get there, narcs

anyone else going to law school because they forsee having legal troubles in the future?

jk....

[Baylan]

Gunna have to pull the plug on this one. So far we've got advice from a doctor, a philosopher, and a cop, but no law students.
/thread and /self

Eh, its less common then you'd think. It depends on who you hang out around, really. I don't know anyone who did adderall in LS, but I heard talk of some people who did it. Also I suspect some people do it and just don't talk about it...for reasons that should be clear from the reactions of some individuals in this thread.

Well, the whole C&F issue might be part of that - I'm sure that if extensive use of illicit substances (prescription or otherwise) came to light, that most would not pass (or at least have trouble with) the C&F portion of the bar. There are also many Alcohol and Drug abuse orgs for lawyers, specifically.

My law school states that use of illegal drugs violates the student code of conduct, as well - which the use of adderall would fall under, for me. If it were to give everyone an advantage in focus, and one uses the drug and the other does not because it is following the Code of Conduct, and it is a banned substance, how is that not an ethical violation? Taking advantage of the system in order to gain an advantage over one's peers seems like an ethics issue to me. Illegality is part of it, the other is the fact that the organizations which directly regulate lawyers and law schools, in large part, are against illicit drug use.

In my eyes, taking advantage of a banned substance in order to advantage yourself (and thereby disadvantage your classmates, via the curve) is ethically wrong. It is supposed to be about each individual's merits, not who was able to take advantage of the system in order to advantage themselves.

[Nikrall]

Gunna have to pull the plug on this one. So far we've got advice from a doctor, a philosopher, and a cop, but no law students.
/thread and /self

Eh, its less common then you'd think. It depends on who you hang out around, really. I don't know anyone who did adderall in LS, but I heard talk of some people who did it. Also I suspect some people do it and just don't talk about it...for reasons that should be clear from the reactions of some individuals in this thread.

Well, the whole C&F issue might be part of that - I'm sure that if extensive use of illicit substances (prescription or otherwise) came to light, that most would not pass (or at least have trouble with) the C&F portion of the bar. There are also many Alcohol and Drug abuse orgs for lawyers, specifically.

I haven't done the C&F yet, but I'm pretty sure they don't specifically ask you whether you've done any illegal substances. They ask about arrests, but not whether you've ever done anything illegal.

My law school states that use of illegal drugs violates the student code of conduct, as well - which the use of adderall would fall under, for me. If it were to give everyone an advantage in focus, and one uses the drug and the other does not because it is following the Code of Conduct, and it is a banned substance, how is that not an ethical violation? Taking advantage of the system in order to gain an advantage over one's peers seems like an ethics issue to me. Illegality is part of it, the other is the fact that the organizations which directly regulate lawyers and law schools, in large part, are against illicit drug use.

Similar to laws, I don't equate the student code of conduct with ethics. How is doing something illegal "taking advantage of the system"?

In my eyes, taking advantage of a banned substance in order to advantage yourself (and thereby disadvantage your classmates, via the curve) is ethically wrong. It is supposed to be about each individual's merits, not who was able to take advantage of the system in order to advantage themselves.

So doing legal things that give you an added boost are OK...but if its illegal its somehow "taking advantage of the system"? The system, if it finds out, will fuck you in the ass for taking drugs to help you study. But somehow these people are taking advantage of it?

[Always Credited]

This thread is retarded.

[Baylan]

Gunna have to pull the plug on this one. So far we've got advice from a doctor, a philosopher, and a cop, but no law students.
/thread and /self

Eh, its less common then you'd think. It depends on who you hang out around, really. I don't know anyone who did adderall in LS, but I heard talk of some people who did it. Also I suspect some people do it and just don't talk about it...for reasons that should be clear from the reactions of some individuals in this thread.

Well, the whole C&F issue might be part of that - I'm sure that if extensive use of illicit substances (prescription or otherwise) came to light, that most would not pass (or at least have trouble with) the C&F portion of the bar. There are also many Alcohol and Drug abuse orgs for lawyers, specifically.

I haven't done the C&F yet, but I'm pretty sure they don't specifically ask you whether you've done any illegal substances. They ask about arrests, but not whether you've ever done anything illegal.

My law school states that use of illegal drugs violates the student code of conduct, as well - which the use of adderall would fall under, for me. If it were to give everyone an advantage in focus, and one uses the drug and the other does not because it is following the Code of Conduct, and it is a banned substance, how is that not an ethical violation? Taking advantage of the system in order to gain an advantage over one's peers seems like an ethics issue to me. Illegality is part of it, the other is the fact that the organizations which directly regulate lawyers and law schools, in large part, are against illicit drug use.

Similar to laws, I don't equate the student code of conduct with ethics. How is doing something illegal "taking advantage of the system"?

In my eyes, taking advantage of a banned substance in order to advantage yourself (and thereby disadvantage your classmates, via the curve) is ethically wrong. It is supposed to be about each individual's merits, not who was able to take advantage of the system in order to advantage themselves.

So doing legal things that give you an added boost are OK...but if its illegal its somehow "taking advantage of the system"? The system, if it finds out, will fuck you in the ass for taking drugs to help you study. But somehow these people are taking advantage of it?

The idea behind C&F, at least as I interpret it, is to ensure an ethical and fit practice of law by the lawyer. You don't see any conflict with C&F and breaking the law? I certainly do. And certainly, extensive and open use could be uncovered in a C&F investigation if it were to ever get that far. If you could be potentially disbarred (or not allowed to pass the C&F portion of the bar) you don't see it as an ethical violation? Because I think that it would certainly be a hangup.

And yes, doing legal things that give you an added boost are OK. Just because "everyone is doing it" doesn't excuse the illegality of it. Some need adderall in order to be on in an even spot due to disabilities. Those uses are OK under the law and the code of conducts that exist. Someone using the drug without a prescription is doing so because it gives them a boost over other students. Why use it if it doesn't give you an advantage? The legality plays a role in ethical violations. While there have been and still are unjust laws that exist, those that relate to controlled substances typically aren't discriminatory.

And the speeding ticket examples you've used previously aren't analogous either. They are extremely minor violations that can easily happen by accident, possession of controlled substances is frequently a felony. Very different types of violations. Analogize it with another nonviolent felony, at the very least.