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I'm currently an engineering student (Computer Science Engineering), and someone I met told me they were going to peruse IP law. They told me that there is a very heavy demand, and that it is common for people in IP law to make $300 or $400 an hour. I'm just wondering how legitimate this is.

1. What is Computer Science Engineering ?

2. No 300 or 400 an hour is not true for a brand spanking new lawyer. Market rate is $160,000 a year which is roughly $80 an hour and is not easy to walk into so no need to get your hopes up.

3. A lawyer can make much more in his career than an engineer though.

Computer Science Engineering at my school is majoring in Computer Science in the Engineering school. We get a Bachelors of Science in Engineering. It's a little different then majoring in Computer Science in the Arts & Sciences school, and they get a Bachelors of Science. Generally the CSE degree is considered better. CSE majors take all the same intro and prerequisite classes as all the other engineering majors, where as CS majors don't.

He wasn't saying $300 to $400 for a brand new lawyer, but after a few years, even if you're not the best. $160K is still a lot better than what I'd make starting with a Masters in CS (which is more like 80-90K at my school). Is that $300 or $400/hour realistic after some experience though?

From what I've heard, new IP lawyers charge $300 - $400 / hour. You will earn a fraction of that. Whoever told you just might have inferred wrongly what he heard.

I would check the Patent Office website to see where your major falls in for sitting for the Patent Bar. You might have to take some additional sciences beforehand.

WillieNephren wrote:$160K is still a lot better than what I'd make starting with a Masters in CS

$160k is far from guaranteed and depends on where you want to work.

From what I hear CS isn't in demand for IP at the moment. I believe there is case at the supreme court about the ability to patent software.

The case you're referring to is called Bilski

The IP market is pretty tough right now. I have friends who graduated in 2008 who all hoped to break into IP, and at this point, only one succeeded, and he has a Ph.D.

Computer science is not something that firms are looking for...electrical engineering is what most IP firms need right now. And if you want to really do IP, you need to be able to sit for the patent bar. You can find out more about it at the PTO's homepage.

http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/index.jsp

The good news is that you don't have to go to law school to sit for the patent bar if you are qualified to take it, and you can actually do patent applications to make some cash.

A warning, though, there are some TTT and TTTT schools that have "prestigious IP prgrams"--avoid them if you can! They don't have any pull with IP firms and they generally can't place students into IP jobs unless those students are in the top 10% or from a T-14 school. Don't be conned into doing what is known as "soft IP"--trademarks, copyrights, etc. Law firms hire folks who can do everything--my friend with the Ph.D. who was hired to do patent work mostly does the soft stuff.

BarCliff wrote:The case you're referring to is called Bilski

Close, but it's actually called BERNARD L. BILSKI AND RAND A. WARSAW v. DAVID J. KAPPOS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND DIRECTOR, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 545 F.3d 943, 88 U.S.P.Q.2d 1385 (Fed. Cir. 2008)

War Cardinal wrote:

BarCliff wrote:The case you're referring to is called Bilski

Close, but it's actually called BERNARD L. BILSKI AND RAND A. WARSAW v. DAVID J. KAPPOS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND DIRECTOR, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 545 F.3d 943, 88 U.S.P.Q.2d 1385 (Fed. Cir. 2008)

And a case can be "called" something that is not actually its full title.

Unless you're saying you would refer to this in conversation as "BERNARD L. BILSKI AND RAND A. WARSAW v. DAVID J. KAPPOS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND DIRECTOR, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 545 F.3d 943, 88 U.S.P.Q.2d 1385 (Fed. Cir. 2008)". In which case, you need to focus on being less pretentious.

WillieNephren wrote:Computer Science Engineering at my school is majoring in Computer Science in the Engineering school. We get a Bachelors of Science in Engineering. It's a little different then majoring in Computer Science in the Arts & Sciences school, and they get a Bachelors of Science. Generally the CSE degree is considered better. CSE majors take all the same intro and prerequisite classes as all the other engineering majors, where as CS majors don't.

He wasn't saying $300 to $400 for a brand new lawyer, but after a few years, even if you're not the best. $160K is still a lot better than what I'd make starting with a Masters in CS (which is more like 80-90K at my school). Is that $300 or $400/hour realistic after some experience though?

You go to UMich don't you? And you listened to that talk from the patent lawyer that Chesney invites to EECS496 every year. I was in the same shoes just a few years ago; that talk really stuck in my head. Non-engineers will never understand the frustration we go through working in technical positions - it's like you know you went through harder shit than anyone else can imagine in undergrad, you got a job in R&D at some cutting-edge technology company, you start out with a pretty decent salary with just a Bachelor's, but two years in you realize this is more or less what you'll be making and what you'll be doing for the rest of your career. f**k that. trust me, EECS is not half as exciting once you start work - you won't get to learn new shit every quarter and soon you'll be the "expert" in some specialized role, seemingly forever.

gerghk wrote:

WillieNephren wrote:Computer Science Engineering at my school is majoring in Computer Science in the Engineering school. We get a Bachelors of Science in Engineering. It's a little different then majoring in Computer Science in the Arts & Sciences school, and they get a Bachelors of Science. Generally the CSE degree is considered better. CSE majors take all the same intro and prerequisite classes as all the other engineering majors, where as CS majors don't.

He wasn't saying $300 to $400 for a brand new lawyer, but after a few years, even if you're not the best. $160K is still a lot better than what I'd make starting with a Masters in CS (which is more like 80-90K at my school). Is that $300 or $400/hour realistic after some experience though?

You go to UMich don't you? And you listened to that talk from the patent lawyer that Chesney invites to EECS496 every year. I was in the same shoes just a few years ago; that talk really stuck in my head. Non-engineers will never understand the frustration we go through working in technical positions - it's like you know you went through harder shit than anyone else can imagine in undergrad, you got a job in R&D at some cutting-edge technology company, you start out with a pretty decent salary with just a Bachelor's, but two years in you realize this is more or less what you'll be making and what you'll be doing for the rest of your career. f**k that. trust me, EECS is not half as exciting once you start work - you won't get to learn new shit every quarter and soon you'll be the "expert" in some specialized role, seemingly forever.

You got that right. It's not so much the pay that's making me want to go into IP, but the fact that I'd be stuck doing the same thing day in and day out eventually. Sure you could get an MBA and try to get into a management position, but that doesn't sound too interesting to me.

gerghk wrote: You go to UMich don't you? And you listened to that talk from the patent lawyer that Chesney invites to EECS496 every year. I was in the same shoes just a few years ago; that talk really stuck in my head. Non-engineers will never understand the frustration we go through working in technical positions - it's like you know you went through harder shit than anyone else can imagine in undergrad, you got a job in R&D at some cutting-edge technology company, you start out with a pretty decent salary with just a Bachelor's, but two years in you realize this is more or less what you'll be making and what you'll be doing for the rest of your career. f**k that. trust me, EECS is not half as exciting once you start work - you won't get to learn new shit every quarter and soon you'll be the "expert" in some specialized role, seemingly forever.

I'm in the biomedical field, and this happened to me while I was still in grad school. The prospect of forever being referred to as "the ____ guy" was a slap in the face. At least if I end up as "the patent guy," I'll be looking at different information on a regular basis and should be well-compensated.

Bildungsroman wrote:

War Cardinal wrote:

BarCliff wrote:The case you're referring to is called Bilski

Close, but it's actually called BERNARD L. BILSKI AND RAND A. WARSAW v. DAVID J. KAPPOS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND DIRECTOR, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 545 F.3d 943, 88 U.S.P.Q.2d 1385 (Fed. Cir. 2008)

And a case can be "called" something that is not actually its full title.

Unless you're saying you would refer to this in conversation as "BERNARD L. BILSKI AND RAND A. WARSAW v. DAVID J. KAPPOS, UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY AND DIRECTOR, PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE 545 F.3d 943, 88 U.S.P.Q.2d 1385 (Fed. Cir. 2008)". In which case, you need to focus on being less pretentious.

Oh, shut it, hussy. I was playing around.