Hamilton or HLS Forum

[englawyer]

This estimate is without the assumption of summer 2L employment correct? The OP is obivously very brilliant, I think it is reasonable to think that he/she will be able to secure a Big Law Summer Job during 2L summer.

I just have to respond to this to say that this is not how law school works.

Every single person who gets into CLS is going to be "obviously very brilliant". They're all going to be competing for the same jobs. And ITE, law firms are cutting down on hiring and focusing a lot more seriously on things like grades. OP has a high potential for success, but it is not "reasonable" to assume paid summer employment at this point.

You must be a 0L if you're making statements like this. It's foolish to to just assume paid employment, even for T6 folks, these days.

+1. my understanding is that it is not wise to assume anything but median, even with stellar stats. the LSAT has a correlation with LS performance, but doesn't predict well in the narrow score range found at most schools.

this applies particularly to Columbia, where over HALF of the students scored in the 99th percentile.

[chadwick218]

My college roommate and long-time friend took HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

[Nom Sawyer]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

[vanwinkle]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

By borrowing $195K and not finding paid summer work, I'd imagine. Keep in mind that interest starts accruing as soon as you borrow the money, so you'd probably accrue $5K in interest by the time you graduate.

Finding paid summer work has been nearly impossible ITE. Even people at Harvard are having trouble with it. Taking the ability to find paid summer work for granted is just f'ing stupid.

[Nom Sawyer]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

By borrowing $195K and not finding paid summer work, I'd imagine. Keep in mind that interest starts accruing as soon as you borrow the money, so you'd probably accrue $5K in interest by the time you graduate.

Finding paid summer work has been nearly impossible ITE. Even people at Harvard are having trouble with it. Taking the ability to find paid summer work for granted is just f'ing stupid.

Well, I wouldn't say nearly impossible ITE for HYS.. wasn't the consensus that around 2/3 (or more) were still getting a paid summer job? Also, I know that they provide grants for public interest work during the summer too, so no matter which direction you choose you're still earning something during the summer. It just seems that if you have decent money-management skills you'd graduate with less than $200K in debt even if you took out the max in loans.

[chadwick218]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

He found summer work at a gov't agency that has since extended him an offer ... a trivial salary and having to rent an apartment in DC ate into any "summer savings."

Also, you may be forgetting about the accrual of interest after 3 years. Interest of 8.25% adds up very quickly.

[Nom Sawyer]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

He found summer work at a gov't agency that has since extended him an offer ... a trivial salary and having to rent an apartment in DC ate into any "summer savings."

Also, you may be forgetting about the accrual of interest after 3 years. Interest of 8.25% adds up very quickly.

Hmm.. the summer thing makes sense. However interest does not accrue on either Federal Stafford Loans (up to $20,500/year) or Federal Direct GRADplus Loans (up to $47,500/year) during the time you are in law school. So, max should still be ~$195,000 upon graduation.

[chadwick218]

Hmm.. the summer thing makes sense. However interest does not accrue on either Federal Stafford Loans (up to $20,500/year) or Federal Direct GRADplus Loans (up to $47,500/year) during the time you are in law school. So, max should still be ~$195,000 upon graduation.

So we are talking about a difference of $5K, I like to round!

[Nom Sawyer]

Hmm.. the summer thing makes sense. However interest does not accrue on either Federal Stafford Loans (up to $20,500/year) or Federal Direct GRADplus Loans (up to $47,500/year) during the time you are in law school. So, max should still be ~$195,000 upon graduation.

So we are talking about a difference of $5K, I like to round!

Haha touche... it seems crazy to me that we're just throwing around these numbers tho. $5k is a lot more than my entire bank account right now...

[sayan]

My college roommate and long-time friend took the HLS over the Hamilton ... graduating this spring and now $200K in debt, he tells me that there is not a day that goes by that he wishes he had gone to Columbia. Despite having a job, he has now developed this strange resentment for Harvard.

How does one actually graduate with $200K in debt from Harvard? I mean you have to contribute some each summer (like $3000-5000 minimum your summer before LS).. and then wouldn't 2L SA go towards paying it down? also at most your loaning like 3 * 65000, which is only 195,000 before any deductions u make to it.

He found summer work at a gov't agency that has since extended him an offer ... a trivial salary and having to rent an apartment in DC ate into any "summer savings."

Also, you may be forgetting about the accrual of interest after 3 years. Interest of 8.25% adds up very quickly.

Hmm.. the summer thing makes sense. However interest does not accrue on either Federal Stafford Loans (up to $20,500/year) or Federal Direct GRADplus Loans (up to $47,500/year) during the time you are in law school. So, max should still be ~$195,000 upon graduation.

I thought only subsidized FSL didn't have interest accrual during law school? Interesting to know.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Interest accrues while you're in school on everything aside from the subsidized staffords. Thus the "subsidized" term.

[Nom Sawyer]

Interest accrues while you're in school on everything aside from the subsidized staffords. Thus the "subsidized" term.

Yeah I think this true, I looked at it further and realized that Harvard was referring to its own HLS loans that it gives out sometimes that are also subsidized. Federal GRADPlus loans accrue simple interest while you are in college, while Stafford loans don't accrue any interest. Upon graduation, these loans began to accrue compound interest.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Interest accrues while you're in school on everything aside from the subsidized staffords. Thus the "subsidized" term.

Yeah I think this true, I looked at it further and realized that Harvard was referring to its own HLS loans that it gives out sometimes that are also subsidized. Federal GRADPlus loans accrue simple interest while you are in college, while Stafford loans don't accrue any interest. Upon graduation, these loans began to accrue compound interest.

Unsubsidized staffords also accrue interest. The cap on subsidized is $8,500 a year, so you're still going to have over $10k/year in unsubsidized (accruing simple interest at 6.8%), in addition to the GradPLUS at 8.5%.

After you graduate (and repayment begins, I think--so, 6 months after graduation) all of the accrued interest is capitalized, and, from there, the loans have compound interest.

The Hamilton scholarship is worth ~$135-150k (depending on how much tuition goes up over the next three years) before you account for any interest at all. After you account for the accrued interest that capitalizes, as well as the additional interest payments over a 10 year period, you're well over $200k. Keep in mind, this debt load is hitting you in the years that you'd probably like the resources to aggressively invest in retirement accounts (to get the compound interest benefits,) as well as buy a house, etc.

Is a Harvard degree really worth well over $200k more than a Columbia degree? Because you want to practice in DC, it might be. Still, though, rough decision. Do you know if you're getting any need-based aid from Harvard yet? They are more generous with it than most schools, considering they don't give merit aid.

[MellonCollie]

Interest accrues while you're in school on everything aside from the subsidized staffords. Thus the "subsidized" term.

Yeah I think this true, I looked at it further and realized that Harvard was referring to its own HLS loans that it gives out sometimes that are also subsidized. Federal GRADPlus loans accrue simple interest while you are in college, while Stafford loans don't accrue any interest. Upon graduation, these loans began to accrue compound interest.

Unsubsidized staffords also accrue interest. The cap on subsidized is $8,500 a year, so you're still going to have over $10k/year in unsubsidized (accruing simple interest at 6.8%), in addition to the GradPLUS at 8.5%.

After you graduate (and repayment begins, I think--so, 6 months after graduation) all of the accrued interest is capitalized, and, from there, the loans have compound interest.

The Hamilton scholarship is worth ~$135-150k (depending on how much tuition goes up over the next three years) before you account for any interest at all. After you account for the accrued interest that capitalizes, as well as the additional interest payments over a 10 year period, you're well over $200k. Keep in mind, this debt load is hitting you in the years that you'd probably like the resources to aggressively invest in retirement accounts (to get the compound interest benefits,) as well as buy a house, etc.

Is a Harvard degree really worth well over $200k more than a Columbia degree? Because you want to practice in DC, it might be. Still, though, rough decision. Do you know if you're getting any need-based aid from Harvard yet? They are more generous with it than most schools, considering they don't give merit aid.

The bolded is key. As much as I want to go to Harvard, my ideal job would quickly take me out of LIPP's most generous income bracket and the debt load would essentially mean that I would save very little money at all (or be able to enjoy my disposable income in other ways) until I'm 37.

[MellonCollie]

Has anyone asked to be put in touch with a Hamilton recipient at Columbia yet?