Success without passion? Forum

[thegor1987]

I thought that the law school admission process was the first step in stripping a lawyer of emotion and passion. Then after 1L the demoralization is complete, and practice and licensing ensures these inferior human attributes do not return

[OperaSoprano]

I thought that the law school admission process was the first step in stripping a lawyer of emotion and passion. Then after 1L the demoralization is complete, and practice and licensing ensures these inferior human attributes do not return

I'll let you know how that goes. So far, halfway through my first year and no demoralization yet. However, according to Isabel Briggs Myer's seminal study on type, ENFP is the second likeliest of the 16 types to drop out of law school. surpassed only by INFP. All the NT types are likely to stick with it. The challenge for ENFPs is too many passions, not lack of any at all. I just told my parents that I really want a JD/MSW, and it might make sense to go for it if my grades suck or legal hiring doesn't pick up. Helping people in a non legal capacity >>> doc review in a biglaw basement somewhere.

Law is one of many passions for me, and it probably is more practical than trying to become an opera singer (I'm never going to be Renee Fleming), or designing jewelry. PR would have made use of my strengths, but unless I was representing an organization I believed in, it would've been unfulfilling. Ditto for working for a fashion company. Only being a psychotherapist appeals as much as law, and is "practical." I intend to do as much as I can in my lifetime, and learn as much, with people I care about nearby, if possible.


I know there are a lot of INTP/J people on here. I actually gravitate toward them, probably because straight INFP/J boys are very, very rare, and I mean rare to the point that I've never met one who was single. This causes problems on occasion, though I have a strong T side (just not quite as strong as the P-- if head and heart get into a fight, which fortunately doesn't happen often, heart is going to win). Sometimes NT boys just won't talk about their feelings, which of course doesn't mean they have none. I also think some of them are passionate about the law, though, like Renzo, they might not put it that way.

[MC Southstar]

I thought that the law school admission process was the first step in stripping a lawyer of emotion and passion. Then after 1L the demoralization is complete, and practice and licensing ensures these inferior human attributes do not return

I'll let you know how that goes. So far, halfway through my first year and no demoralization yet. However, according to Isabel Briggs Myer's seminal study on type, ENFP is the second likeliest of the 16 types to drop out of law school. surpassed only by INFP. All the NT types are likely to stick with it. The challenge for ENFPs is too many passions, not lack of any at all. I just told my parents that I really want a JD/MSW, and it might make sense to go for it if my grades suck or legal hiring doesn't pick up. Helping people in a non legal capacity >>> doc review in a biglaw basement somewhere.

Law is one of many passions for me, and it probably is more practical than trying to become an opera singer (I'm never going to be Renee Fleming), or designing jewelry. PR would have made use of my strengths, but unless I was representing an organization I believed in, it would've been unfulfilling. Ditto for working for a fashion company. Only being a psychotherapist appeals as much as law, and is "practical." I intend to do as much as I can in my lifetime, and learn as much, with people I care about nearby, if possible.


I know there are a lot of INTP/J people on here. I actually gravitate toward them, probably because straight INFP/J boys are very, very rare, and I mean rare to the point that I've never met one who was single. This causes problems on occasion, though I have a strong T side (just not quite as strong as the P-- if head and heart get into a fight, which fortunately doesn't happen often, heart is going to win). Sometimes NT boys just won't talk about their feelings, which of course doesn't mean they have none. I also think some of them are passionate about the law, though, like Renzo, they might not put it that way.

I chose the first option, but I wouldn't really say it that strongly. I'm ENFP too and like you, I have too many passions and agree that "Helping people in a non legal capacity >>> doc review in a biglaw basement somewhere. " I'm actually only barely more F than T, I think I let the two sides fight it out.

Also, I'm straight and single, and I'm not sure it's that rare? You'd know better than me.

[Lyndon]

Interesting twist to the thread.

Bah. I wish someone would do research that can perfectly match personality type with professions. That would vastly simplify this whole compatibility search.

On another topic: If tuition were subsidized by the government, but professional occupations (i.e. medicine, law) were far less financially compensated, how would the demographics of aspiring law students shift?

In France, the school system is similar to that and I've found that most of the people who go into law/medicine do so because they have an intrinsic passion for the field, and are less motivated by pragmatic considerations.

[summerstar]

great thread. I was thinking about posting something similar yesterday, except that it was going to read:

Why are you going into Law?

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

or

2) Passion for the field, altruistic motives, i.e. dreams of Justice, make the world a better place etc.

It seems like they're mutually exclusive here, and Big Law is the be all end all.

[flcath]

I wish someone would do research that can perfectly match personality type with professions. That would vastly simplify this whole compatibility search.

I feel like I've seen this idea played out in several (mostly futuristic dystopic) media portrayals. Brave New World, Gattaca, and Futurama come to mind, though I'm sure there are many others. It is not typically shown in a positive light.

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

A field that is only prestigious among its own practitioners is not prestigious. Most average people have more respect for prosecutors that private attorneys. Also, lawyers overall continue to be among the least respected (though I concede that "respect" is different from "prestige") professions in America.

Don't get me wrong I'm happy to be here (law), but those who wanted respect and prestige went for the 4-year professional degree that puts a salutation in front of your name and two letters far more prestigious than "JD" behind it.

[macattaq]

When I first decided to apply to law school, I thought of it as a practical choice. Once I began my first semester, I realized that I really love studying law.

This. My passion is performing and producing music. Once I started school, I realized I can combine my passion with practicality. And this doesn't preclude me from continuing to DJ and produce, either.

[Doritos]

I wish someone would do research that can perfectly match personality type with professions. That would vastly simplify this whole compatibility search.

I feel like I've seen this idea played out in several (mostly futuristic dystopic) media portrayals. Brave New World, Gattaca, and Futurama come to mind, though I'm sure there are many others. It is not typically shown in a positive light.

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

A field that is only prestigious among its own practitioners is not prestigious. Most average people have more respect for prosecutors that private attorneys. Also, lawyers overall continue to be among the least respected (though I concede that "respect" is different from "prestige") professions in America.

Don't get me wrong I'm happy to be here (law), but those who wanted respect and prestige went for the 4-year professional degree that puts a salutation in front of your name and two letters far more prestigious than "JD" behind it.

I got to disagree. I think there is a lot of prestige around being a lawyer. It's a professional career and people think that getting a law degree = big $$$. In the opening theme to Weeds they mention lawyers along w/ doctors and business executives. I think people regard lawyers as sort of cutthroat but also well paid and powerful by and large. Check out the lawyer TV shows.

[regatsrj]

Yes, as a matter of fact (had to take the Meyer-Briggs twice, the I/E went different ways both times).

I'm the exact same! I've taken it probably 4-5 times, and I keep bouncing between INTJ and ENTJ. Apparently we're a very rare type.

[biggamejames]

Why are you going into Law?

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

or

2) Passion for the field, altruistic motives, i.e. dreams of Justice, make the world a better place etc.

3) Because I needed a job that wasn't 3rd shift at the gas station?

[Borhas]

ooh I like categorizing myself, according to this site I'm "INTJ"

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

INTJs are analytical. Like INTPs, they are most comfortable working alone and tend to be less sociable than other types. Nevertheless, INTJs are prepared to lead if no one else seems up to the task, or if they see a major weakness in the current leadership. They tend to be pragmatic, logical, and creative. They have a low tolerance for spin or rampant emotionalism. They are not generally susceptible to catchphrases and do not recognize authority based on tradition, rank, or title.

Hallmarks of the INTJ include independence of thought and a desire for efficiency. They work best when given autonomy and creative freedom. They harbor an innate desire to express themselves by conceptualizing their own intellectual designs. They have a talent for analyzing and formulating complex theories. INTJs are generally well-suited for occupations within academia, research, management, engineering, and law. They are often acutely aware of their own knowledge and abilities—as well as their limitations and what they don't know (a quality that tends to distinguish them from INTPs). INTJs thus develop a strong confidence in their ability and talents, making them natural leaders.

In forming relationships INTJs tend to seek out others with similar character traits and ideologies. Agreement on theoretical concepts is an important aspect of their relationships. By nature INTJs can be demanding in their expectations, and they approach relationships in a rational manner. As a result INTJs may not always respond to a spontaneous infatuation but wait for a mate who better fits their set criteria. They tend to be stable, reliable, and dedicated. Harmony in relationships and home life tends to be extremely important to them. They generally withhold strong emotion and do not like to waste time with what they consider irrational social rituals. This may cause non-INTJs

this little system is way cooler than astrology signs. Anyway while a lot of these characteristics seem to fit my behavior, I'm not really sure if this system can be trusted. It seems like people are just way too diverse to be divided up into discrete sections. We are probably all on various gradients, though the 4 basic categories of MBTI seem like they are essential.

[OperaSoprano]

I thought that the law school admission process was the first step in stripping a lawyer of emotion and passion. Then after 1L the demoralization is complete, and practice and licensing ensures these inferior human attributes do not return

I'll let you know how that goes. So far, halfway through my first year and no demoralization yet. However, according to Isabel Briggs Myer's seminal study on type, ENFP is the second likeliest of the 16 types to drop out of law school. surpassed only by INFP. All the NT types are likely to stick with it. The challenge for ENFPs is too many passions, not lack of any at all. I just told my parents that I really want a JD/MSW, and it might make sense to go for it if my grades suck or legal hiring doesn't pick up. Helping people in a non legal capacity >>> doc review in a biglaw basement somewhere.

Law is one of many passions for me, and it probably is more practical than trying to become an opera singer (I'm never going to be Renee Fleming), or designing jewelry. PR would have made use of my strengths, but unless I was representing an organization I believed in, it would've been unfulfilling. Ditto for working for a fashion company. Only being a psychotherapist appeals as much as law, and is "practical." I intend to do as much as I can in my lifetime, and learn as much, with people I care about nearby, if possible.


I know there are a lot of INTP/J people on here. I actually gravitate toward them, probably because straight INFP/J boys are very, very rare, and I mean rare to the point that I've never met one who was single. This causes problems on occasion, though I have a strong T side (just not quite as strong as the P-- if head and heart get into a fight, which fortunately doesn't happen often, heart is going to win). Sometimes NT boys just won't talk about their feelings, which of course doesn't mean they have none. I also think some of them are passionate about the law, though, like Renzo, they might not put it that way.

I chose the first option, but I wouldn't really say it that strongly. I'm ENFP too and like you, I have too many passions and agree that "Helping people in a non legal capacity >>> doc review in a biglaw basement somewhere. " I'm actually only barely more F than T, I think I let the two sides fight it out.

Also, I'm straight and single, and I'm not sure it's that rare? You'd know better than me.

I've been doing some reading... All the NF types are more common among women than men. INFJ is usually thought to be the rarest type (under 1%), though INTPs are also around 1%, IIRC.

I do know one straight male ENFP, but he's my uncle, so no. I'm friends with another who is single but not straight. If INFP/J boys are floating around, I have not met them. My sample is a decent size, and though it could be skewed, I believe the numbers are in line with my experience in that regard.

I want to develop my TJ abilities, and law school has been helpful so far. I actually felt that being a P was helpful on exams, because it didn't bother me to keep my options open by stating the outcome could be X, Y or Z, depending on which rule the jurisdiction applied. I hedged a lot, which is a huge ENFP trait, but I explained as concisely as possible why I was hedging. I hope I acted with wisdom.

If I couldn't follow my passions, though, my life would not be worth living. Practicality gets a strong vote, and I do try to balance the two, but it never gets a veto. People I care about come first, and I try to apply the facts in their service, if I can.

I do want to learn more about personality and career selection. Do we choose well for ourselves, in terms of personal fit? If the job pays well and is not mind numbingly boring, do most people care if they aren't passionate about it?

[summerstar]

Opera, that's an intersting take on the personality types best suited to law practice. I'm an INFP...but have been nurturing a logical approach to back up initial assesments that I used to make strictly from intuitive reasoning. So this type tends to drop out of law...could you elaborate?

also...fave opera?

mine: Der Rosenkavalier

[Doritos]

Why are you going into Law?

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

or

2) Passion for the field, altruistic motives, i.e. dreams of Justice, make the world a better place etc.

3) Because I needed a job that wasn't 3rd shift at the gas station?

As the economy goes further down the shitter this is increasingly the response. I was thinking about this the other day. Say you're a person who has had good grades growing up. You graduate from high school and go to college. You major in something you're "passionate" about (English, Philosophy, Fashion, etc.) and you do well. You graduate and find yourself in the job market but you can't seem to get anything terribly great. You have a worthless degree and little to no work experience except some work study job you did part time in college and you feel like a failure. What can you do? Law School! woo-hoo! You have been a professional student since you were 5 years old so continuing to do student things is right up your alley. It's easy to get into (no pesky science requirements like med school) and you have 3 more years to distinguish yourself and get a marketable skill set. It makes sense. You are 23 and have terrible career prospects with a worthless degree so why not go and do what you have been good at your whole life? School.

This may lead to some sad faces when you actually enter the profession and hate it or you do poorly due to lack of interest in the law but I can see why so many people fall back on law school. There are tons of people who go once they realize a BA in meaningless shit = you better keep going to school or work for peanuts while you try and move up the ladder (in a great majority of cases). For the record I'm not advising people to go to LS cuz you can't do anything with your BA I just can understand the thinking behind it because I find myself in this exact situation.

[summerstar]

Why are you going into Law?

1) Power, Prestige, Big Money, Big Law

or

2) Passion for the field, altruistic motives, i.e. dreams of Justice, make the world a better place etc.

3) Because I needed a job that wasn't 3rd shift at the gas station?

As the economy goes further down the shitter this is increasingly the response. I was thinking about this the other day. Say you're a person who has had good grades growing up. You graduate from high school and go to college. You major in something you're "passionate" about (English, Philosophy, Fashion, etc.) and you do well. You graduate and find yourself in the job market but you can't seem to get anything terribly great. You have a worthless degree and little to no work experience except some work study job you did part time in college and you feel like a failure. What can you do? Law School! woo-hoo! You have been a professional student since you were 5 years old so continuing to do student things is right up your alley. It's easy to get into (no pesky science requirements like med school) and you have 3 more years to distinguish yourself and get a marketable skill set. It makes sense. You are 23 and have terrible career prospects with a worthless degree so why not go and do what you have been good at your whole life? School.

This may lead to some sad faces when you actually enter the profession and hate it or you do poorly due to lack of interest in the law but I can see why so many people fall back on law school. There are tons of people who go once they realize a BA in meaningless shit = you better keep going to school or work for peanuts while you try and move up the ladder (in a great majority of cases). For the record I'm not advising people to go to LS cuz you can't do anything with your BA I just can understand the thinking behind it because I find myself in this exact situation.

Your point totally well taken. I seem to run across this a lot: Men are more apt to choose Law for the bigmoney...they want to support their families, make a good living and also have some degree of professional prowess. The women are more inclined to look at the altruistic side, as well as a career. But I think on some level, they know they can fall back on a husband...maybe a BIGLAW husband. The guys are hell bent to succeed or killself by nature. More power to you, seriously. If my advocacy work won't pay the bills, I'll marry one of you!

[Drake014]

Generally there's passion, but I find I can have success even if I'm only mildly aroused.

[Alexandria]

I agree with those who have said it's a mix. It's possible to have some other, less practical passion, while still finding the law incredibly interesting and having success in it. But I think you do need to have SOME passion/deep interest in it.

[viking138]

In my opinion, unless you're very very lucky, you're not going to have both a career and marriage you're passionate about because the balance will be close to impossible. Personally, my relationships have always been my passion. I care about my friends and family much more than I do my activities and work. I am going to law school and viewing it as a professional school that will prepare me for a career. Basically, I will be working to live, not living to work. I will work to help support my family and enable me to do the things I love but I will never sacrifice my family or relationship for my job (which is why I plan to work in corporate law for a few years then get out to start a family).

Not everyone is like that, some people want their whole lives to be about their career. That's totally fine but if that is you, I think you're going to want to find a career that you feel strongly about or you will be pretty unhappy. Good luck, and chill back a bit...you're only a sophomore!


Edit: As for "settling," I've been lucky enough to be accepted to T6 law schools so barring a major mess up on my part, a law career should provide me with a really good quality of life. So no, I don't feel I'm settling. I feel I'm entering a field that will provide me with the support for the life I hope to have.

Congrats on your acceptances! Do you mind if I ask how you plan to finance school? I used to want to do what you're talking about (not corporate law but take time off for a family) but it seems like taking loans for a T6 school make that all but impossible. It also disqualifies you for many loan repayment programs, which really bothers me. In a perfect world, men and women would share family responsibilities, but since it's not that way, it's hard for me to figure out how these policies (about uninterrupted work time verses total work time for loan repayment) are not blatantly sexist.

I don't mind although it's the same as most people I think: loans. I'll hopefully pay off the bulk of it by my early-mid thirties since I'm still very young and salt away as much as I can for the future.

[summerstar]

Generally there's passion, but I find I can have success even if I'm only mildly aroused.

har har.

Seriously, no one can be passion driven every waking second, but surely it has to be the instigating force that drives you to persist in a gruelling LS experience and a daunting profession. But the defining issue is this: are you passionate about law, or are you passionate about money...not that the two are incompatable, don't get me wrong, but I think that's the divide that will decide who stays in law...someone who genuinely enjoys it, versus someone who ends up quitting because the money just wasn't worth the trouble, the hours , the grind. I mean, if you don't enjoy getting your mind around it, all the money in the world isn't going to make it worth your time. In the end, it's passion that makes you do what your doing...but passion for WHAT?

[MC Southstar]

I've been doing some reading... All the NF types are more common among women than men. INFJ is usually thought to be the rarest type (under 1%), though INTPs are also around 1%, IIRC.

I do know one straight male ENFP, but he's my uncle, so no. I'm friends with another who is single but not straight. If INFP/J boys are floating around, I have not met them. My sample is a decent size, and though it could be skewed, I believe the numbers are in line with my experience in that regard.

I want to develop my TJ abilities, and law school has been helpful so far. I actually felt that being a P was helpful on exams, because it didn't bother me to keep my options open by stating the outcome could be X, Y or Z, depending on which rule the jurisdiction applied. I hedged a lot, which is a huge ENFP trait, but I explained as concisely as possible why I was hedging. I hope I acted with wisdom.

If I couldn't follow my passions, though, my life would not be worth living. Practicality gets a strong vote, and I do try to balance the two, but it never gets a veto. People I care about come first, and I try to apply the facts in their service, if I can.

I do want to learn more about personality and career selection. Do we choose well for ourselves, in terms of personal fit? If the job pays well and is not mind numbingly boring, do most people care if they aren't passionate about it?

That's not that surprising, and I tend to think I have heightened EQ for a guy anyway. My best friend is ENFP and he's gay. I find the ENFP career recommendations to be in line with what I would like to do, but I don't find any of them all that practical, especially ITE. That's my T side talking. What I seriously need more of is S's knowledge and J's organization. I think I'd be a lot better off with that kind of balance.

As for people not liking lawyers, I find this is true all the time, but I think it's a highly skewed perception anyway. Notice that a lot of the professions at the bottom of the list are the ones who actually have control over society, and all those at the top are just agnostic to it and are more ethical in a myopic sense. People see nothing wrong with pharmacy and healthcare because they are too shortsighted to see the ethical and economic dilemmas behind them, all they know is their health is directly involved. On the other hand, they take legal services, government, insurance, and banking for granted. In other words, I don't mind throwing tons of money at my doctor or at the drug companies to directly affect my well being, but move one or two levels of indirection out? No, those are just greedy bastards.

[OperaSoprano]

ooh I like categorizing myself, according to this site I'm "INTJ"

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

INTJs are analytical. Like INTPs, they are most comfortable working alone and tend to be less sociable than other types. Nevertheless, INTJs are prepared to lead if no one else seems up to the task, or if they see a major weakness in the current leadership. They tend to be pragmatic, logical, and creative. They have a low tolerance for spin or rampant emotionalism. They are not generally susceptible to catchphrases and do not recognize authority based on tradition, rank, or title.

Hallmarks of the INTJ include independence of thought and a desire for efficiency. They work best when given autonomy and creative freedom. They harbor an innate desire to express themselves by conceptualizing their own intellectual designs. They have a talent for analyzing and formulating complex theories. INTJs are generally well-suited for occupations within academia, research, management, engineering, and law. They are often acutely aware of their own knowledge and abilities—as well as their limitations and what they don't know (a quality that tends to distinguish them from INTPs). INTJs thus develop a strong confidence in their ability and talents, making them natural leaders.

In forming relationships INTJs tend to seek out others with similar character traits and ideologies. Agreement on theoretical concepts is an important aspect of their relationships. By nature INTJs can be demanding in their expectations, and they approach relationships in a rational manner. As a result INTJs may not always respond to a spontaneous infatuation but wait for a mate who better fits their set criteria. They tend to be stable, reliable, and dedicated. Harmony in relationships and home life tends to be extremely important to them. They generally withhold strong emotion and do not like to waste time with what they consider irrational social rituals. This may cause non-INTJs

this little system is way cooler than astrology signs. Anyway while a lot of these characteristics seem to fit my behavior, I'm not really sure if this system can be trusted. It seems like people are just way too diverse to be divided up into discrete sections. We are probably all on various gradients, though the 4 basic categories of MBTI seem like they are essential.

MBTI is really nothing like astrology, because we self select for the traits we perceive in ourselves. In addition, I believe many of us behave like Harry Potter with the sorting hat. We all might have done well in Slytherin, but it's the choice that matters. Personality is somewhat malleable, and can be altered with concerted effort. I know at least one person who consciously became an extrovert. I actually became an extrovert, but there wasn't much conscious about it.

I think many people would appreciate information about which fields others with similar personalities have chosen, and how they fared in their careers. Coercion need not be involved. Reading about my type was enormously enlightening.

To Summerstar: I was born an INFP, and somewhere along the road I became extroverted. I recommend Gifts Differing, which is where I got the statistics about law school dropout rates. They are a few decades old, and I mean to see if anyone replicated the experiment more recently. The dropout rate overall is much lower now, so it would be interesting to see if anything's changed.

I still adore INFPs, and retained a few characteristics: they are the hopeless romantics of the MBTI, and so am I. Both our types can be taken advantage of by jerks if we don't carefully guard against it. As law students and lawyers, we'll be the necessary counterparts to all those NT types.

I have always loved Rusalka. My childhood favorites are La Boheme and Tosca, and I'm currently listening to Die Tote Stadt. All over the place, as befits an NFP. Do you sing as well?

[summerstar]

People don't like lawyers because they are AFRAID of them. To most people, the law is intimidating at best, and a threat to their misdeeds at worst.

Doctors, drug companies? They don't have the respect they used to in any way shape or form. The healthcare issue is being tweeked by their interests, and its obvious.

[MC Southstar]

People don't like lawyers because they are AFRAID of them. To most people, the law is intimidating at best, and a threat to their misdeeds at worst.

Doctors, drug companies? They don't have the respect they used to in any way shape or form. The healthcare issue is being tweeked by their interests, and its obvious.

That too, but I think it is the methods of lawyers that they have ethical complaint about. Using any tactic available to win an argument. Not everyone thinks the ends justify the means.

[summerstar]

OS, lovely words go with a lovely voice! ( I can hear it in the way you write, honestly) Yes, I sing too, not so much opera anymore. I LOVE La Boheme...thinking about the MET schedule just last night, haven't seen it in a long time.

YES! My name is ------ and I'm an INFP! Help! What am I doing here?I have strong T and E days, and one reason I'm looking forward to Law School, God willing, is because I want to cultivate those sides of myself, so find it fascinating and inspiring you went from I to E. I def can, given the right milieu. I just happen to be living out in provincial suburbia right now and AM sooo out of my elemnt, having exhausted the potential of this small town. Ugh, but I digress.

Have you ever sung the part of Mimi? Yes? Lucky girl!

[summerstar]

People don't like lawyers because they are AFRAID of them. To most people, the law is intimidating at best, and a threat to their misdeeds at worst.

Doctors, drug companies? They don't have the respect they used to in any way shape or form. The healthcare issue is being tweeked by their interests, and its obvious.

That too, but I think it is the methods of lawyers that they have ethical complaint about. Using any tactic available to win an argument. Not everyone thinks the ends justify the means.

Absolutely true. Agreed. And, how disapointing that the law is used to circumvent the law (loose quote: Ambrose Pierce)