2020 September California Bar Exam

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Tankeryanker

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Tankeryanker » Tue May 12, 2020 12:47 pm

Not sure what is up with the image, but here is the May 11 info from CAlbar

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/doc ... lcPC6d3IJA

Notice that July 6 is the go/no go date for the Bar after they get info from BBar

Rooks

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Rooks » Tue May 12, 2020 8:16 pm

damn.. i hope they don't drop the ball. seems like there's no way we can ALL sit down and take the test should online exam not be feasible. it doesn't look like they are even considering degree privilege at this point, either.

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Tue May 12, 2020 9:33 pm

a male human wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:54 pm
BarEssays wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:49 pm
Nevada and Indiana are eliminating the MBE and moving to an open book home exam, arguing that this is better applicable to the practice of law. Should California follow?

“…the essay portion is the more valid measure of minimum competence, something the MBE lacks. More important, under the proposed format Nevada will be testing knowledge, analytical ability and writing skills, all which are accepted measures of attorney competence. In addition, the open book component also incorporates what we as lawyers do every day; look up the applicable law. If a test taker has not studied and or does not know the law the open book format provides little comfort with the strict time limitations of 60 minutes per question.”
RICHARD M. TRACHOK, ESQ. , CHAIR – BOARD OF BAR EXAMINERS


https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local/nev ... -petition/

These are strange times, but apparently removing the MBE has been considered for CA?

https://blog.baressays.com/should-the-c ... ction-mbe/
It sounds like at least one guy is considering it. LOL.

Honestly though the entire test is arbitrary. Incompetent attorneys pass and competent attorneys don't. Nature of the beast.

To me, the essays are just as arbitrary as the MBEs if not more so because there is so much subjectivity built in. Is someone going to ever give you an hour to draft any legal document? No.

People will argue that nothing is fair except a complete obliteration of the exam. Maybe the exam isn't fair, but everyone who wants to practice in California knows it's here.

The California bar has like zero reason to make the test easier.

The state isn't suffering from an undersupply of attorneys, and rightly or wrongly the argument that allowing test takers from unaccredited school and allowing test takers who haven't gone to any law school creates a need for stricter gatekeeping will always be there.

I'm surprised the bar agreed to a two day format and that the MBE could be weighted at 50%.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Anonymous User » Wed May 13, 2020 12:26 am

so are they going to get rid of written portion of the exam if the test is online? Is my understanding right?

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Heyall » Wed May 13, 2020 2:13 am

Has anyone registered for the September 2020 exam yet?

I logged in to my account and all of the information still says that it's in July and so forth.

Maybe it's been too long since I've done this but I don't know where to go.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by QContinuum » Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 am

rcharter1978 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:33 pm
To me, the essays are just as arbitrary as the MBEs if not more so because there is so much subjectivity built in. Is someone going to ever give you an hour to draft any legal document? No.
Agree. The notion that essays are somehow "fairer" than the MBE is laughable. The MBE at least has truly objective and accurate grading. Essay grading, regardless of how detailed the grading instructions are, is always going to retain some subjectivity, and some risk of human error. And as for being dissimilar to actual legal practice, bar essays aren't really any better than the MBE. In fact, handling client work like a bar essay question (in other words, under tremendous time pressure and purely based on one's own memory, without doing any caselaw or other research) would likely constitute malpractice.

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Wed May 13, 2020 4:26 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 am
rcharter1978 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:33 pm
To me, the essays are just as arbitrary as the MBEs if not more so because there is so much subjectivity built in. Is someone going to ever give you an hour to draft any legal document? No.
Agree. The notion that essays are somehow "fairer" than the MBE is laughable. The MBE at least has truly objective and accurate grading. Essay grading, regardless of how detailed the grading instructions are, is always going to retain some subjectivity, and some risk of human error. And as for being dissimilar to actual legal practice, bar essays aren't really any better than the MBE. In fact, handling client work like a bar essay question (in other words, under tremendous time pressure and purely based on one's own memory, without doing any caselaw or other research) would likely constitute malpractice.
LOL, your point about malpractice is hilarious and true. Like "oh, you have this complex question that covers multiple areas of law I haven't practiced? Lemme see if I can pony up a reliable answer for you in an hour. Complete with headings."

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Caruthers » Wed May 13, 2020 6:01 pm

Heyall wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:13 am
Has anyone registered for the September 2020 exam yet?

I logged in to my account and all of the information still says that it's in July and so forth.

Maybe it's been too long since I've done this but I don't know where to go.
Based on the work plan submitted to the Court, the admissions system should now be updated for the September exam data. Maybe try again now......?

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Kwesi2019 » Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm

Hello! So, here is my situation: I took the bar exam last July and failed by close to 50 points. I took the February 2020 one and I scored 1385.1293 out of 1390 that was required to pass. Now, I am trying to decide whether to take CA in September again and if I do, would it be worth it to get a writing tutor. I am not from CA, so I don't really have any ties to here, but I went to law school here and would love to practice here.

My essay scores were 60, 55, 60, 65, 70, and 55. What do you guys recommend? Also, because of me failing a second time, I will be losing my job.

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Wed May 13, 2020 8:13 pm

Kwesi2019 wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:59 pm
Hello! So, here is my situation: I took the bar exam last July and failed by close to 50 points. I took the February 2020 one and I scored 1385.1293 out of 1390 that was required to pass. Now, I am trying to decide whether to take CA in September again and if I do, would it be worth it to get a writing tutor. I am not from CA, so I don't really have any ties to here, but I went to law school here and would love to practice here.

My essay scores were 60, 55, 60, 65, 70, and 55. What do you guys recommend? Also, because of me failing a second time, I will be losing my job.
What do you think those 55s were about? I think the difference between a 60 and a 65 may just be the luck of the draw with the grader. But the 55s are problematic. If you got a 70 and a 65 it seems like you kinda know how to write.

Out of curiosity, I pulled the score report from my first exam and while I got a 65 and a 70 on two essays, my other essay scores were 55s and a 45 so I very, very, very, very clearly didn't know how to write for the exam and needed a LOT of help in that area.

I got a writing tutor and passed on my second attempt.

I'm not sure if you're in the same boat.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Kwesi2019 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 am

I think the 55 on PR may have had to do with a lack of organizations or failure to state the rules completely. I thought I knew the rules pretty well, but I guess I did not. For the PT, I was confident I talked about all the necessary parts, but I didn't write as much as the first time when I got the 60 because I didn't think it was necessary to write as much. I think I struggle with certain topics and not others.

You think the tutor helped? I am planning on getting a tutor this time around cause I don't want to take it again.

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Thu May 14, 2020 10:02 am

Kwesi2019 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 am
I think the 55 on PR may have had to do with a lack of organizations or failure to state the rules completely. I thought I knew the rules pretty well, but I guess I did not. For the PT, I was confident I talked about all the necessary parts, but I didn't write as much as the first time when I got the 60 because I didn't think it was necessary to write as much. I think I struggle with certain topics and not others.

You think the tutor helped? I am planning on getting a tutor this time around cause I don't want to take it again.
The tutor absolutely helped.

When I left the exam the second time I still didn't think I passed but I knew my performance had improved by leaps and bounds.

While you don't get your scores back when you pass, I suspect the PT was an area where I improved a lot. I don't think I'm an arrogant person, but I feel my PTs the second time around were damn near perfect.

I'll age myself, but I visualized exam points like those gold coins in Super Mario Bros. and I was on a mission to climb up every vine, into every cloud, duck into every pipe and jump on every goomba turtle to get as many coins (points) as I could. In short, I wrote the hell out of the PTs because those were like free points.

If you can afford a writing tutor that's great. I think it's important to find one that you're comfortable putting all your trust in and then going all in.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 14, 2020 12:07 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:02 am
Kwesi2019 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 am
I think the 55 on PR may have had to do with a lack of organizations or failure to state the rules completely. I thought I knew the rules pretty well, but I guess I did not. For the PT, I was confident I talked about all the necessary parts, but I didn't write as much as the first time when I got the 60 because I didn't think it was necessary to write as much. I think I struggle with certain topics and not others.

You think the tutor helped? I am planning on getting a tutor this time around cause I don't want to take it again.
The tutor absolutely helped.

When I left the exam the second time I still didn't think I passed but I knew my performance had improved by leaps and bounds.

While you don't get your scores back when you pass, I suspect the PT was an area where I improved a lot. I don't think I'm an arrogant person, but I feel my PTs the second time around were damn near perfect.

I'll age myself, but I visualized exam points like those gold coins in Super Mario Bros. and I was on a mission to climb up every vine, into every cloud, duck into every pipe and jump on every goomba turtle to get as many coins (points) as I could. In short, I wrote the hell out of the PTs because those were like free points.

If you can afford a writing tutor that's great. I think it's important to find one that you're comfortable putting all your trust in and then going all in.
I hired a tutor who is very well reviewed and still failed because the essays / PT. I did maybe 25 practice PTs, felt amazing leaving the bar exam, and am still shocked about my results. Quite frankly in disbelief. Likely: either all my practice was incorrect, or the bar exam messed up with its grading.

But of course the bar doesn't release results until 4 weeks later. And they don't accept any challenges about bar grading. And they don't show us the point tally by graders. Soooooooooooo I'm not sure what they're hiding, but I'm in the minority that thinks we should be loud about our issues instead of putting our heads down and submitting to their opaque practices.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Kwesi2019 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:34 pm

I see. BArexamtoolbox.com has payment plans so I'm thinking about getting a tutor with them. Has anyone used them before for their tutoring services?

@ Anonymous User, I think you could be right but since they don't leave us much options, I guess we get to find ways to pass. Was that your first time or second?

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rcharter1978

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:07 pm
rcharter1978 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:02 am
Kwesi2019 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:42 am
I think the 55 on PR may have had to do with a lack of organizations or failure to state the rules completely. I thought I knew the rules pretty well, but I guess I did not. For the PT, I was confident I talked about all the necessary parts, but I didn't write as much as the first time when I got the 60 because I didn't think it was necessary to write as much. I think I struggle with certain topics and not others.

You think the tutor helped? I am planning on getting a tutor this time around cause I don't want to take it again.
The tutor absolutely helped.

When I left the exam the second time I still didn't think I passed but I knew my performance had improved by leaps and bounds.

While you don't get your scores back when you pass, I suspect the PT was an area where I improved a lot. I don't think I'm an arrogant person, but I feel my PTs the second time around were damn near perfect.

I'll age myself, but I visualized exam points like those gold coins in Super Mario Bros. and I was on a mission to climb up every vine, into every cloud, duck into every pipe and jump on every goomba turtle to get as many coins (points) as I could. In short, I wrote the hell out of the PTs because those were like free points.

If you can afford a writing tutor that's great. I think it's important to find one that you're comfortable putting all your trust in and then going all in.
I hired a tutor who is very well reviewed and still failed because the essays / PT. I did maybe 25 practice PTs, felt amazing leaving the bar exam, and am still shocked about my results. Quite frankly in disbelief. Likely: either all my practice was incorrect, or the bar exam messed up with its grading.

But of course the bar doesn't release results until 4 weeks later. And they don't accept any challenges about bar grading. And they don't show us the point tally by graders. Soooooooooooo I'm not sure what they're hiding, but I'm in the minority that thinks we should be loud about our issues instead of putting our heads down and submitting to their opaque practices.
I think there are a lot of great tutors out there, but I was specific and insistent about having a writing tutor who was a former bar grader.

I wanted someone who had been in the trenches, grading the exam. I wanted to know what I had to include and what wasn't as important.

What is it you want to know about the grading process that you think would help? The point tally? The grading metric? To what end?

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by retaker_SF » Thu May 14, 2020 3:17 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 am
rcharter1978 wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:33 pm
To me, the essays are just as arbitrary as the MBEs if not more so because there is so much subjectivity built in. Is someone going to ever give you an hour to draft any legal document? No.
Agree. The notion that essays are somehow "fairer" than the MBE is laughable. The MBE at least has truly objective and accurate grading. Essay grading, regardless of how detailed the grading instructions are, is always going to retain some subjectivity, and some risk of human error. And as for being dissimilar to actual legal practice, bar essays aren't really any better than the MBE. In fact, handling client work like a bar essay question (in other words, under tremendous time pressure and purely based on one's own memory, without doing any caselaw or other research) would likely constitute malpractice.
Great point. I think an issue with some is they clearly have a bias based on their own performance.

MBE, as much I personally hate it, is much more objective.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:22 pm

retaker_SF wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I think an issue with some is they clearly have a bias based on their own performance.
Based on their performance on the bar? In legal practice?

I'm sure there's some variation between essay graders, but calling it "bias" when a competent attorney says that your essay doesn't meet the standards of competency in a given jurisdiction is a bit much. It sounds more like you just want the essay graders to have lower standards across the board, which isn't correcting for bias as much as it's correcting for shitty essays.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 14, 2020 3:24 pm

Kwesi2019 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:34 pm
I see. BArexamtoolbox.com has payment plans so I'm thinking about getting a tutor with them. Has anyone used them before for their tutoring services?

@ Anonymous User, I think you could be right but since they don't leave us much options, I guess we get to find ways to pass. Was that your first time or second?
second time. I'm really skeptical about tutors, because unfortunately we don't know why their students are successful. Many students write that their tutors helping their essays / pt is the reason they passed. If I had passed, I would've thought that it was in large part because of my tutor's help on essays / PT but not MBE. Yet, in reality as I now know, my MBE score was significantly higher and if I passed it would've been because of its weight.

My biggest issue with the bar exam is that those who pass don't know why, because they parrot their prideful talking points /advice most often not knowing why they actually passed. Why does the bar not let people who passed know their scores? I think they're hiding something and know transparency will trigger a flood of angry petitioners.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by retaker_SF » Thu May 14, 2020 3:26 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:22 pm
retaker_SF wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I think an issue with some is they clearly have a bias based on their own performance.
Based on their performance on the bar? In legal practice?

I'm sure there's some variation between essay graders, but calling it "bias" when a competent attorney says that your essay doesn't meet the standards of competency in a given jurisdiction is a bit much. It sounds more like you just want the essay graders to have lower standards across the board, which isn't correcting for bias as much as it's correcting for shitty essays.
Based off their past exams for which they know their scores. So if they struggled with MBE, they say it's BS. And if they were good at MBEs, they say essays were BS. old fashioned bias / self projection

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:32 pm

retaker_SF wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:26 pm
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:22 pm
retaker_SF wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:17 pm
I think an issue with some is they clearly have a bias based on their own performance.
Based on their performance on the bar? In legal practice?

I'm sure there's some variation between essay graders, but calling it "bias" when a competent attorney says that your essay doesn't meet the standards of competency in a given jurisdiction is a bit much. It sounds more like you just want the essay graders to have lower standards across the board, which isn't correcting for bias as much as it's correcting for shitty essays.
Based off their past exams for which they know their scores. So if they struggled with MBE, they say it's BS. And if they were good at MBEs, they say essays were BS. old fashioned bias / self projection
But what does that have to do with essay grading? Everyone is given the same rubric. As mentioned, there's an element of subjectivity in how different attorneys view those rubric standards, but I don't understand why general cynicism about the bar exam would have any effect on graders, especially to the extent that it would negatively impact essay-writers' scores.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by rcharter1978 » Thu May 14, 2020 4:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 3:24 pm
Kwesi2019 wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 12:34 pm
I see. BArexamtoolbox.com has payment plans so I'm thinking about getting a tutor with them. Has anyone used them before for their tutoring services?

@ Anonymous User, I think you could be right but since they don't leave us much options, I guess we get to find ways to pass. Was that your first time or second?
second time. I'm really skeptical about tutors, because unfortunately we don't know why their students are successful. Many students write that their tutors helping their essays / pt is the reason they passed. If I had passed, I would've thought that it was in large part because of my tutor's help on essays / PT but not MBE. Yet, in reality as I now know, my MBE score was significantly higher and if I passed it would've been because of its weight.

My biggest issue with the bar exam is that those who pass don't know why, because they parrot their prideful talking points /advice most often not knowing why they actually passed. Why does the bar not let people who passed know their scores? I think they're hiding something and know transparency will trigger a flood of angry petitioners.
I can tell you my tutor helped improve my writing and that is the only reason I passed.

I took the exam when it was three days and the written portion was weighed at 65%. No way was I passing that exam without a significant improvement in my writing as my raw writing score was 575 over six essays and two PTs the first time I took the exam.

I don't think there is anything nefarious in not giving the passing scores, though I think your reasoning is at least partially correct. I think students who didn't pass would try to argue for extra points or compare and contrast and complain that they weren't THAT far off from a passing essay so why didn't their essay get a 65 instead of a 60.

At least a vocal minority who didn't pass, would demand regrade after regrade until they got what they wanted. Particularly if they were close to passing. And then what if a re-regrade resulted in a lower score? Because of the subjective nature of essay grading? Now you'll need a re-re-regrade.

It's just a super messy proposition.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Heyall » Thu May 14, 2020 5:33 pm

Caruthers wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 6:01 pm
Heyall wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:13 am
Has anyone registered for the September 2020 exam yet?

I logged in to my account and all of the information still says that it's in July and so forth.

Maybe it's been too long since I've done this but I don't know where to go.
Based on the work plan submitted to the Court, the admissions system should now be updated for the September exam data. Maybe try again now......?
Thanks for the response.

It's already cleared up and there was a mistake on my part.

But anyway, for people still needing to register, you still have to pick a venue, and the application still says July 2020. But it'll send you an email right after you register saying the date is September 9 2020.

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Kwesi2019 » Tue May 19, 2020 8:13 pm

Thanks! I've met with a tutor that was referred to me by someone from work and considering the private tutoring package from Barexamtoolbox.com. Has any of you used their service before?

Also, since this will be my third time taking the exam, would you guys consider I start studying on June 15 or June 29 and work two more weeks?

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Heyall » Wed May 20, 2020 3:12 pm

Does anyone have any predictions for this exam?

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Re: 2020 September California Bar Exam

Post by Anonymous User » Thu May 21, 2020 4:58 pm

Do we know if the exam will, for sure, be online? Also, did the NCBE formally approve the California bar's request to administer the MBE online?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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