NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates? Forum

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fearandtremblingg

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by fearandtremblingg » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:20 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
fearandtremblingg wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
fearandtremblingg wrote:Why can't a temporary diploma privilege type of status be conferred on all 2020 grads that expires upon the release of results of the next administered exam?
Here's a fun hypo for your PR class:

Jimmy is an attorney by virtue of "temporary diploma privilege" in his home state of Texas. Texas conferred this status on all class of 2020 grads, with an expiration date set in May 2021. [To make things simple, assume Jimmy will pass C&F review.]

In August 2020, Jimmy takes on a client charged with a dealer-weight drug offense. He represents that client through several motion hearings on a variety of issues before taking the February 2021 bar exam. He loses each of the hearings. In March 2021, on Jimmy's advice, the client takes a plea deal and agrees to a five-year sentence. In May 2021, exam results from February are released, and Jimmy has failed the bar exam.

Identify all the claims Jimmy's former client can bring, both for post-conviction relief and for his civil malpractice case.
That's a really fair point.
And just to be clear, supervised practice is still an option in these states. It's certainly going to be harder, and not every firm/organization/agency will get on board. But I'd much rather have a large glut of law clerks making their way through the certification process than create an ethical minefield by changing the certification standards for a single group of students.
I think that actually makes more sense than my proposal, but it would screw over everyone who wants to hang their own shingle. But you're right, my proposal seems to create some really unfortunate and foreseeable consequences. The fairest and easiest way is to probably just make everyone take the next administered exam. Sucks to have that few month delay, but the other alternatives are just too messy.

QContinuum

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by QContinuum » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:23 pm

fearandtremblingg wrote:I thought of that, but I don't care how good the webcam is, or even if every single person is being monitored the entire time, you could definitely find ways around it to have another monitor or computer somewhere in order to look up answers or cheat. As a bit of an outlandish example, someone with long hair could be wearing bluetooth headphones and be pretending to read out the question out loud while the person on the other line is looking up the answers and relaying them back to the examinee. Or someone could set up a second monitor right behind their monitor in a way where it would be impossible to tell that they weren't looking at their testing screen all the while googling exam answers. I think an online exam would defeat the purpose of having an exam in the first place. If in some crazy situation they did, I would expect the pass rates nationwide to be absurdly high.
Agree with all of the above. I'd add that this is especially a risk for the MBE and MEE, as both largely test memorization. This is much less of a risk for tests like the GRE and GMAT, which have been repeatedly flagged. To be able to cheat effectively on those tests, you'd have to have a GRE/GMAT wiz on the line, live, solving the questions in real time and feeding you the answers. Doable, but would be more obvious and easily detected, and you'd have to find a talented "collaborator" willing to help you cheat. But cheating effectively on the MBE and MEE is very straightforward - you don't need help from a second person, you can simply look answers up yourself.

LawSchoolGeeky

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by LawSchoolGeeky » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:33 pm

QContinuum wrote:
fearandtremblingg wrote:I thought of that, but I don't care how good the webcam is, or even if every single person is being monitored the entire time, you could definitely find ways around it to have another monitor or computer somewhere in order to look up answers or cheat. As a bit of an outlandish example, someone with long hair could be wearing bluetooth headphones and be pretending to read out the question out loud while the person on the other line is looking up the answers and relaying them back to the examinee. Or someone could set up a second monitor right behind their monitor in a way where it would be impossible to tell that they weren't looking at their testing screen all the while googling exam answers. I think an online exam would defeat the purpose of having an exam in the first place. If in some crazy situation they did, I would expect the pass rates nationwide to be absurdly high.
Agree with all of the above. I'd add that this is especially a risk for the MBE and MEE, as both largely test memorization. This is much less of a risk for tests like the GRE and GMAT, which have been repeatedly flagged. To be able to cheat effectively on those tests, you'd have to have a GRE/GMAT wiz on the line, live, solving the questions in real time and feeding you the answers. Doable, but would be more obvious and easily detected, and you'd have to find a talented "collaborator" willing to help you cheat. But cheating effectively on the MBE and MEE is very straightforward - you don't need help from a second person, you can simply look answers up yourself.
Per the CA bar conference call going on right now, it was mentioned that there is technology that can detect cheating activities/behaviors that indicate cheating and flag this as suspect behavior. I know this isn't perfect, but even with an in-person exam, we're never going to completely eradicate cheating. I think diploma privilege + online bar exam is the best option out of a lot of imperfect options.

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:47 pm

Incoming associate at a V50 firm. just got an email stating our start date will likely be pushed back. no timeframe provided though

QContinuum

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by QContinuum » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:04 pm

LawSchoolGeeky wrote:Per the CA bar conference call going on right now, it was mentioned that there is technology that can detect cheating activities/behaviors that indicate cheating and flag this as suspect behavior. I know this isn't perfect, but even with an in-person exam, we're never going to completely eradicate cheating. I think diploma privilege + online bar exam is the best option out of a lot of imperfect options.
The fact that you will "never completely eradicate cheating" even with an in-person exam doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and say we might as well go to online exams and rely on the honor system.

I don't think the technology exists that can magically and accurately "detect cheating activities and flag this as suspect". At most, you might be able to program software to detect notes/reference materials within view of the webcam, but I'm not seeing how you detect the kinds of relatively simple/low-effort cheating scenarios that have already been raised in this thread, like an outline placed behind the webcam. You don't need to have Bond-level gadgetry to get around webcam monitoring.

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LawSchoolGeeky

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by LawSchoolGeeky » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:36 pm

QContinuum wrote:
LawSchoolGeeky wrote:Per the CA bar conference call going on right now, it was mentioned that there is technology that can detect cheating activities/behaviors that indicate cheating and flag this as suspect behavior. I know this isn't perfect, but even with an in-person exam, we're never going to completely eradicate cheating. I think diploma privilege + online bar exam is the best option out of a lot of imperfect options.
The fact that you will "never completely eradicate cheating" even with an in-person exam doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands and say we might as well go to online exams and rely on the honor system.

I don't think the technology exists that can magically and accurately "detect cheating activities and flag this as suspect". At most, you might be able to program software to detect notes/reference materials within view of the webcam, but I'm not seeing how you detect the kinds of relatively simple/low-effort cheating scenarios that have already been raised in this thread, like an outline placed behind the webcam. You don't need to have Bond-level gadgetry to get around webcam monitoring.
I’m assuming it can detect if someone is scrolling and looking at a screen behind the monitor with the questions on it or flipping through notes out of sight, etc. In other words, an examinees eye movement and physical movements that may suggest they’re not focusing their attention on the screen in front of them. This is at least the way it was described on the call.

I never suggested that because we can’t eradicate cheating means we throw our hands up. That’s a mischaracterization of what I was suggesting. I think it’s enough to make good faith efforts to detect and prevent cheating in an online setting that can adequately deter people from attempting to cheat and detect the bulk of those who would try to. If law school exams and law review competitions can be administered online, so can some type of modified bar exam. After all, we use grades and law review membership as a measure of hire-ability in many legal positions.

And it bears noting that the exact answers to multiple choice questions (which I'm assuming is where your cheating concerns are most heightened) aren't searchable online or in notes. It still requires understanding and application of a legal rule. And what legal rule would even apply to the question.

Logicalfallacy

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Re: NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates?

Post by Logicalfallacy » Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:52 pm

https://www.law.com/2020/04/03/two-fall ... e_facebook

New exam dates announced. Looks like either September 9-10 or September 30/Oct 1. Also hints at the possibility of an online exam if in person isn't feasible.

My school just sent an email giving us a heads up that MA will be holding it on September 30 - October 1 because they couldn't secure a large venue for the September 9-10 date.

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