2018 July California Bar Forum

[lnu1992]

Does anyone know how long it takes to get our packets so we can be sworn in ?

[QContinuum]

Has anyone here sat for AZ? Just passed CA, and now thinking about taking the AZ bar.

I believe my options are as follows...I can take the UBE (but I would have do both the written and MBE portions I am assuming), or I can just sit for the AZ bar.

If I sit for the AZ exam do I have to do both the written and MBE portion as well?

First, CONGRATS on passing the CA bar, the toughest bar exam in the country.

I'm not sure what you mean about "just sit[ting] for the AZ bar." I believe you need to take the UBE to be admitted to practice in AZ. See https://www.azcourts.gov/cld/Attorney-Admissions (listing three ways for being admitted in AZ: passing the UBE in AZ, transferring a UBE score from another state to AZ, and on motion - not available to you since you must have practiced for 3 of the past 5 years, and must have been admitted to at least one reciprocal jurisdiction, which CA isn't). I am not aware of a separate "AZ bar" aside from the UBE.

Further, as far as taking the UBE goes, you'll need to retake the MBE, as AZ doesn't accept transferred MBE scores. See http://www.ncbex.org/exams/ube/score-portability/ The advantage to taking the entire UBE in AZ (or any other UBE state) is that your UBE score will then be portable. (If you were to transfer your CA MBE score to a UBE jurisdiction that does accept transferred MBE scores, your resulting score wouldn't be portable to any other UBE jurisdiction. So there's no "loophole" that might allow you to transfer CA MBE to a different UBE jurisdiction, then port that to AZ.)

[justanotherperson]

Failed the bar my first time. Completely disheartened because I thought I may have pulled it off! I used Barbri and am regretting my decision. Does anyone know of any good CA Bar tutors that helped them pass? I really could use the advice and help. At this point, I will do anything to pass Feb 2019....

[FinallyPassedTheBar]

IMHO, the only good thing Barbri is good for is the Convisor mini review text book.

The rest is a waste, especially those damn lectures. Listening to the lectures can be dangerous if it gives you a false sense of security. You'll spend so much energy just getting through them, that you might feel you've spent 3+ hours of quality study time. But in reality, it's more like wasting 3+ hours while at the same time unnecessarily fatiguing you for the day.

My suggestion: Get a used copy of the Convisor mini-review text book from Ebay. Use that for your black letter law review. Then subscribe to Adaptibar for your MBE review, and BarEssays.com for your essay review. You can also supplement your MBE review with the latest S&T book. That''s what I did to pass July 2017. There was nothing special about my circumstance. I'm not a genius and I do not have impeccable study habits. I just religiously reviewed from the sources I listed above for 5 to 8 hours per day for 3+ months.

[lexingtonhr]

Failed the bar my first time. Completely disheartened because I thought I may have pulled it off! I used Barbri and am regretting my decision. Does anyone know of any good CA Bar tutors that helped them pass? I really could use the advice and help. At this point, I will do anything to pass Feb 2019....

I also failed my first time and I'm completely discouraged. I took BarBri too and I am also regretting the decision. I know a few people that passed with BarBri, but I also know a lot of people that failed with it. I also want to see if anyone knows of a good CA bar tutor because I don't know what to do at this point.

[lexingtonhr]

IMHO, the only good thing Barbri is good for is the Convisor mini review text book.

The rest is a waste, especially those damn lectures. Listening to the lectures can be dangerous if it gives you a false sense of security. You'll spend so much energy just getting through them, that you might feel you've spent 3+ hours of quality study time. But in reality, it's more like wasting 3+ hours while at the same time unnecessarily fatiguing you for the day.

My suggestion: Get a used copy of the Convisor mini-review text book from Ebay. Use that for your black letter law review. Then subscribe to Adaptibar for your MBE review, and BarEssays.com for your essay review. You can also supplement your MBE review with the latest S&T book. That''s what I did to pass July 2017. There was nothing special about my circumstance. I'm not a genius and I do not have impeccable study habits. I just religiously reviewed from the sources I listed above for 5 to 8 hours per day for 3+ months.

I did all of that... I still don't know what I did wrong. I could've possibly choked during the essay portion. I'm interested to see what happened when I check on my results tomorrow.

[justanotheruser]

didnt pass again.....wow just wow.

That really sucks. Pass rate was close to 40% (and something like 16% for repeaters), the lowest it's been on record for July. Very tough exam.

I’m just over the whole exam now. It’s been too long dealing with this. Then the doubt of if I’ll ever pass sets in.

Hang in there. I failed 5 times, and finally passed the Feb 2018 exam.

[maxmartin]

IMHO, the only good thing Barbri is good for is the Convisor mini review text book.

The rest is a waste, especially those damn lectures. Listening to the lectures can be dangerous if it gives you a false sense of security. You'll spend so much energy just getting through them, that you might feel you've spent 3+ hours of quality study time. But in reality, it's more like wasting 3+ hours while at the same time unnecessarily fatiguing you for the day.

My suggestion: Get a used copy of the Convisor mini-review text book from Ebay. Use that for your black letter law review. Then subscribe to Adaptibar for your MBE review, and BarEssays.com for your essay review. You can also supplement your MBE review with the latest S&T book. That''s what I did to pass July 2017. There was nothing special about my circumstance. I'm not a genius and I do not have impeccable study habits. I just religiously reviewed from the sources I listed above for 5 to 8 hours per day for 3+ months.

Yes, Convisor is useful. I passed July 2017 CA exam and used a 2012 Convisor. And I am selling it on Ebay LOL.

[Twinmom]

I somehow passed the attorney exam and was so sure that I failed, that my husband and I re-read the screen a hundred times. My con law answer was GARBAGE. I didn’t even study con law because I was sure agency and partnership, torts or property would be tested before another full con law question. I also know I missed some major issues on both the contracts and evidence questions. However, I took the advice from someone else on this board and started with the PT and spent 1.5 hours on it since it was worth more. I also tried to make my answers close to 10,000 characters each and sometimes I just repeated facts. I’m still in shock i passed and had already planned to start studying again for Feb, so it was a nice surprise. But if I passed, you can too.

I took Barbri and it was a total waste of money. I only used their old essay book and referenced the convisor here and there. I didn’t have a lot of time to study so i practiced the barbri essays as well as those on the calbar website. When I saw paragraphs repeated in multiple essays i wrote those down to memorize so i would have something coherent to write on the exam. I also used some of my old materials from Joe Seperac from when i took the NY bar in 2010. I saw someone else mention him here, and I know back when i was fresh out of law school many people worked with him in NY. Check him out if you didn’t pass and ask him if he will analyze your scores. He’s an amazing resource and breaks down how to really beat this thing. Don’t let it get in your head...you can and will pass.

[Auxilio]

To be honest I don't know if I agree with all the hate towards the big companies. I took Themis (which as mentioned above, they do publish pass rates unlike what was said previously) and was pretty happy with it.

I feel like I gained a fair amount from the lectures (at 2x speed) and was able to jump right into MBE questions/essays fairly well before looking at outlines (I only looked at outlines more than a few pieces in the last couple weeks).

I'm not going to pretend it was perfect, but I think it overall did a fairly good job.

[lnu1992]

Failed the bar my first time. Completely disheartened because I thought I may have pulled it off! I used Barbri and am regretting my decision. Does anyone know of any good CA Bar tutors that helped them pass? I really could use the advice and help. At this point, I will do anything to pass Feb 2019....

I used Themis study materials/program. I loved it. I did over 2,000 MBE questions. The difference between Barbri and Themis is that Themis makes you start practicing right away. Because I was practicing while I was still learning/memorizing the material I got comfortable with feeling uncomfortable and just solving the problem.

[bacillusanthracis]

To be honest I don't know if I agree with all the hate towards the big companies. I took Themis (which as mentioned above, they do publish pass rates unlike what was said previously) and was pretty happy with it.

I feel like I gained a fair amount from the lectures (at 2x speed) and was able to jump right into MBE questions/essays fairly well before looking at outlines (I only looked at outlines more than a few pieces in the last couple weeks).

I'm not going to pretend it was perfect, but I think it overall did a fairly good job.

How one feels is directly related to their results. I did Barbri twice, and (long story short) had good results with their MBE program, but my essay results were terrible, so I needed something else.

You happen to be in the group that Themis worked for. I have friends who passed the first time using Barbri, so they think it's great. And that's totally understandable. But when you look at it as a whole, and considering that most people will use Barbri or Themis, the overall results aren't very good. To be fair to both though, the grading process in California is pretty mysterious. But what we do know shows us that it's designed to work against us. So maybe the results the big box companies get is indicative of them not knowing what to do either.

So the problem appears to be in the teaching process. A teacher can't teach what they don't know.

That's why the MBE is so important now. At least California has nothing to do with that.

[MBernard]

Apologize if this question has already been asked, but does anyone know when we get our admission packets or when info concerning the swearing-in ceremony will occur?

Hoping that they will have one in Sacramento at the State Supreme CT. I have a lot of family that wants to come.

[Auxilio]

But when you look at it as a whole, and considering that most people will use Barbri or Themis, the overall results aren't very good. To be fair to both though, the grading process in California is pretty mysterious. But what we do know shows us that it's designed to work against us. So maybe the results the big box companies get is indicative of them not knowing what to do either.

But why would you "look at it as a whole" instead of just comparing Themis rates with California's rates in general?
https://www.themisbar.com/pass-rates


Themis seems to do 15-20% better for California if you do >75% of the course (and I can almost guarantee a lot of people do check off things like "read outline" as complete to move on with schedule inflating their completion amount more than is accurate.

I mean, it's not 100% of course, but it's still a big step up from the general rate (a lot of whom presumably use Barbri/etc.). I know my perception is influenced because I passed, but I also felt pretty good about Themis' prep before finding out my results (and thinking there was a very good chance I had failed).

I'm not trying to dismiss the valid concerns of those who failed, but this conversation really seems to be missing a stark look at the numbers.

ETA: looking at it I can't find any pass rates from Barbri so I assume they don't publish them. This almost guarantees they do worse than (or very similar to) Themis because why wouldn't they be screaming "x% more test takers pass with us than Themis" if they did.

[estefanchanning]

But when you look at it as a whole, and considering that most people will use Barbri or Themis, the overall results aren't very good. To be fair to both though, the grading process in California is pretty mysterious. But what we do know shows us that it's designed to work against us. So maybe the results the big box companies get is indicative of them not knowing what to do either.

But why would you "look at it as a whole" instead of just comparing Themis rates with California's rates in general?
https://www.themisbar.com/pass-rates


Themis seems to do 15-20% better for California if you do >75% of the course (and I can almost guarantee a lot of people do check off things like "read outline" as complete to move on with schedule inflating their completion amount more than is accurate.

I mean, it's not 100% of course, but it's still a big step up from the general rate (a lot of whom presumably use Barbri/etc.). I know my perception is influenced because I passed, but I also felt pretty good about Themis' prep before finding out my results (and thinking there was a very good chance I had failed).

I'm not trying to dismiss the valid concerns of those who failed, but this conversation really seems to be missing a stark look at the numbers.

ETA: looking at it I can't find any pass rates from Barbri so I assume they don't publish them. This almost guarantees they do worse than (or very similar to) Themis because why wouldn't they be screaming "x% more test takers pass with us than Themis" if they did.

Themis/Barbri takers are 100% self-selected smarties. Most of the people who took those courses are from t-20 schools. Most of my friends who went to t4/t3 schools couldn't afford those courses. So it is hard to say if the program itself is what works, or the people who take it tend to be inherently smart.

I personally took barbri and I thought it was complete and utter shit. I thought adaptibar was also shit. Adaptibar actually gives wrong explanations to some of its questions. Not just badly worded, but flat-out wrong. I 100% attribute my success to my own studying.

That's not to say that barbri is not helpful for other people (ex: those who want rigid structure in their study schedule). But overall, Barbri did not offer me anything that I couldn't get from a $50 book on amazon.

[phonylawyer2017]

Well, requested the NCBE score advisory and my MBE score exceeds 150, yet still failed. Great.

[rcharter1978]

didnt pass again.....wow just wow.

Put a plan together and prepare for the next exam. Don't take too much time to dwell on fail because I think it's easy to get in a mental hole. Where do you think you're falling down? Essays? MBE? PT?

[rcharter1978]

Well, requested the NCBE score advisory and my MBE score exceeds 150, yet still failed. Great.

OKAY, so that sucks but it means that a. you know those areas of the law tested on the mbe b. there is one entire section of the exam you perform fairly well in

To me this means you need to work on essay writing and PTs. The beautiful thing about PTs is that no one wants to practice them and they are the easiest place to improve with practice and help.

When I needed writing help, I got a tutor. Specifically I got one that was a former grader. Sometimes the essays are as much about what you can leave out as much as what you put in and how you present the information. If you maybe aren't doing it right you are likely missing a lot of points even if you're spotting the issues.

[rcharter1978]

Re: Barbri

As I understand it Barbri is meant for everyone. Which means it's designed for students in the bottom 10% of the class who are learning this stuff for the first time. It's not bad per se, but it really is a cookie cutter approach.

[a male human]

I join in concurrence with everything rcharter has said so far

[LockBox]

I join in concurrence with everything rcharter has said so far

I'm also going to echo what rcharter and AMH have said.

If you're failing because of the essays, the question I would have is are you writing enough? Are you getting feedback on your writing, preferably from a former bar grader?

I hated writing because it really exposed my weakness. looking at a blank page sucked. But I did it at least 2 times per day for 9 weeks of bar prep. I didn't outline (until the very end) - I practiced as I would perform. I wrote out full essays within the time limit. My tutor suggested doing it open book first - I disagreed and did EVERY ONE closed book. I failed during bar prep over and over again (55's). However, on game day I was ready because I had done it so many times over and over.

Attack your weaknesses and shore up your strengths. The test is passable, but it is in no way guaranteed.

[FinallyPassedTheBar]

Apologize if this question has already been asked, but does anyone know when we get our admission packets or when info concerning the swearing-in ceremony will occur?

Hoping that they will have one in Sacramento at the State Supreme CT. I have a lot of family that wants to come.

Yes there will be one in Sacramento, but it's at a hotel not at the Supreme CT.

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/docu ... _FINAL.pdf

[MBernard]

Apologize if this question has already been asked, but does anyone know when we get our admission packets or when info concerning the swearing-in ceremony will occur?

Hoping that they will have one in Sacramento at the State Supreme CT. I have a lot of family that wants to come.

Yes there will be one in Sacramento, but it's at a hotel not at the Supreme CT.

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/docu ... _FINAL.pdf

Awesome, thanks so much!

[l18]

I am going to repost some of what I wrote in the Themis July 2018 thread in the hope that I may help someone who did not pass and will be retaking. Adding more details to this post since I can't edit that one anymore. Hope this is alright:

I PASSED the CA Bar!

This is amazing considering how low I felt. My post history is interesting haha.

Upon other people's suggestions, I went through EVERY essay and copied the rules from the posted answer, which was a tremendous help. I also reviewed the answers to the MBE questions I got wrong for the subjects that I was doing poorly on (I copy pasted hundreds of answers for each MBE subject). I also I reviewed critical pass cards and a bunch of other outlines.

For me, reading different outlines and supplements helped me learn the subjects. I would say you cannot memorize word for word all of the information necessary to pass the test. I probably had 6 different outlines for each subject and used several of them for each. This is in addition to doing all of the Themis lectures (up to 4x speed!), MBE questions (over 1,500 with 62% correct overall), and Themis essay guides.

To anyone who did not pass, please do a quick review of how you studied and try to improve your strategy. So much about this test is not about how smart you are, but how you are studying for it.

One resource I found helpful especially: jd advising mbe guide. Do this entire guide before you do MBE questions, and keep going back to it as you are studying.

I also found the Themis essay grader had helpful comments and I did change how I was writing because of the feedback I received. Saved all these comments and reviewed the graded essays to make sure I don't repeat past mistakes.

Other resources used: Professor Heilman’s Predictions (reading about the exam helps you be mentally prepared for it. Don't use the predictions to pick what subjects to study for. The rundown of the subjects is still useful), Lean Sheets, Bar Exam Doc outlines, and Magic Sheet outlines (liked these the most).

If you consider how many different things I purchased, it might be overkill. But I passed, so I will say it was worth it. I think this is too much, but if you studied a bunch of different outlines in law school (I did) and passed exams then this might be worth it for you as well.

[a male human]

Congrats l18! Thanks for your tips and the shoutout for Magicsheets.