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Hi all,

I took the UBE in NY last July. Scored a 261. Got a legally related job where bar admission is not required, but ultimately would like to be able to call myself an attorney and eventually/hopefully practice law. I just retook the bar in NY again and have a sickening feeling that I did surpass my 261 score. I am thinking of what to do. Obviously 261 is good enough to get admitted in Minnesota, Missouri, New Mexico, and Alabama. Is it worth trying to get admitted in any of those states if I have no current day intentions to work in any of them? If so, which of these states is the most practical or simplest to get admitted to? Really interested in hearing anyone's experiences who has done this.

Thank you!!

I got a 264 in Feb and reviewed the requirements for each of the states, MO has the clearest path to licensure.

JShades33 wrote:I got a 264 in Feb and reviewed the requirements for each of the states, MO has the clearest path to licensure.

Thanks. And did you chose to get admitted there? Debating if it's worth it or waste of time and $...

musername wrote:

JShades33 wrote:I got a 264 in Feb and reviewed the requirements for each of the states, MO has the clearest path to licensure.

Thanks. And did you chose to get admitted there? Debating if it's worth it or waste of time and $...

Following

musername wrote:

JShades33 wrote:I got a 264 in Feb and reviewed the requirements for each of the states, MO has the clearest path to licensure.

Thanks. And did you chose to get admitted there? Debating if it's worth it or waste of time and $...

I did. I took the Bar again in NJ just now but, like you, felt like I needed to be licensed. It's pretty costly (the most costly out of the available options at $1200) but comparable to the other jurisdictions - off the top of my head I think MN and NM are $1000. The biggest pain is getting fingerprinted as an out-of-state resident, but you can't avoid this with any of the jurisdictions.

I applied to them as soon as my UBE score was ready to be transferred and they cleared my C&F last Friday.

JShades33 wrote: I did. I took the Bar again in NJ just now but, like you, felt like I needed to be licensed. It's pretty costly (the most costly out of the available options at $1200) but comparable to the other jurisdictions - off the top of my head I think MN and NM are $1000. The biggest pain is getting fingerprinted as an out-of-state resident, but you can't avoid this with any of the jurisdictions.

I applied to them as soon as my UBE score was ready to be transferred and they cleared my C&F last Friday.

Thanks so much for entertaining my questions, hah. Ideally, of course, I pray to god that I got a 266 so I can get licensed in NY. However, I am having serious doubts as I know for a fact that I majorly screwed up 2 essays and MBE is a crapshoot, was only averaging 67% on adaptibar so odds arent in my favor.

I am tempted to get admitted somewhere just to be licensed and am okay making a trip or two to one of those states but dont want to waste money if if it will be of no use...

No problem, you don't actually have to go for anything, the fingerprinting is just a pain because you have to convince a local law enforcement agency to print you with ink which apparently none of them use anymore.
And to be sworn in they mail you the oath paperwork and you can a local attorney you know swear you in, sign it and mail it back.

JShades33 wrote:No problem, you don't actually have to go for anything, the fingerprinting is just a pain because you have to convince a local law enforcement agency to print you with ink which apparently none of them use anymore.
And to be sworn in they mail you the oath paperwork and you can a local attorney you know swear you in, sign it and mail it back.

Well, thanks again, excited for you to pass NJ so most likely your MO license will just be a quirky bonus but please do sure if you find having it is beneficial to your career in any way. I will likely go ahead and go for it before my UBE score expires

musername wrote:

JShades33 wrote:No problem, you don't actually have to go for anything, the fingerprinting is just a pain because you have to convince a local law enforcement agency to print you with ink which apparently none of them use anymore.
And to be sworn in they mail you the oath paperwork and you can a local attorney you know swear you in, sign it and mail it back.

Well, thanks again, excited for you to pass NJ so most likely your MO license will just be a quirky bonus but please do sure if you find having it is beneficial to your career in any way. I will likely go ahead and go for it before my UBE score expires

No problem, will do. Good luck to you as well, let us know how it turns out.

I was in the low 260s and elected to get licensed in New Mexico ... which a very collegial bar. I live in neighboring Arizona so it made sense for me because I could eventually end up there. PM me if you want more information.

BUMP- any new thoughts and takers on this?

Fearless- your choice to get admitted in NM when you live in NM makes sense but for a NY kid like me to get admitted in Missouri is questionable... still thinking about it!!

Out of Minnesota, Missouri, New Mexico, and Alabama, which seems to process applications the quickest?

Bump - what states of the 260 minimum score states have people found to be the fastest?

Bump

I have this friend who is in this same predicament. He's from Jersey, and he got a 265 in Feb 2018. Is it honestly worth it to get admitted to any of the 260 UBE states? Anyone with experience here in the tri-state area, who went this route, can you shed some light on the price, CLE reqs...etc. My friend does not really care about the fifis involved in calling himself an attorney, hes looking at the real logistics, whether it'll improve actual financial prospects/opportunities. If you are from NY or NJ which of these jurisdictions would be the most accessible. I understand the question was addressed somewhat in previous posts, but I'm looking for more detail...you know...for my friend.

cookieslaw15 wrote:I have this friend who is in this same predicament. He's from Jersey, and he got a 265 in Feb 2018. Is it honestly worth it to get admitted to any of the 260 UBE states? Anyone with experience here in the tri-state area, who went this route, can you shed some light on the price, CLE reqs...etc. My friend does not really care about the fifis involved in calling himself an attorney, hes looking at the real logistics, whether it'll improve actual financial prospects/opportunities. If you are from NY or NJ which of these jurisdictions would be the most accessible. I understand the question was addressed somewhat in previous posts, but I'm looking for more detail...you know...for my friend.

They're roughly the same in terms of accessibility. I think almost all of them have a decent chunk of non-resident licensees, so don't worry about having to live there. If that's the goal however note that outside of their 'big cities,' all of them are really rural states. There's a need for attorneys in rural (and even some suburban) areas nationwide, including government jobs. So there's definitely work, but coming from NYC/Megalopolis, that'll definitely require a cultural adjustment (to not hate life after a few months).

If your friend's more attached to the Northeast, he can get licensed in one of those states, and then waive into DC (provided the 133+ MBE's met). A law school buddy of mine did just that. He took UBE in NY, missed it by a few pts, got licensed in Minnesota, and waived into DC. He was already living in DC at the time though. On a related note, if Federal practice floats the boat, district rules determine the ability to practice. The SDNY (Manhattan), EDNY (Brooklyn-Long Island), FDNJ and the EDPA (Philly) require state bar membership, but the WDPA (Pittsburgh) and FDMD (Maryland) don't. Obv do research if the goal's to get into firm work. There's enough solo work to keep busy too.

As for process, that's more state specific. Some have the NCBE C&F, others do their own. Except for ND ($400 UBE Transfer fee), they're also expensive ($1000-ish) so be prepared to sign large (& many) checks. Same with CLEs. This would probably be helpful:

http://www.ncbex.org/publications/bar-admissions-guide/

I had classmates licensed in almost all the 260-states so I knew what to expect. I'm also doing a UBE Transfer after taking it in NY, so I can speak firsthand about the NCBE C&F (still ongoing). I also used to live in NY, and made the move (for law school) away, so I can speak on that too. So if you have any questions, ask.

If none of the above sound appealing, just take it (NY/NJ) again, I mean "your friend" missed it by one point. The above pretty much = a move from the tri-state area (unless you want to do the NYC/PHL-DC commute (thanks to Acela, it's the only part of America where you can do this). Considering how NYC's costs of living's skyrocketing, that might not be a bad thing. You can also come back to NY (it requires the last 5/7 years of licensure though).

My $.02

b290 wrote:

cookieslaw15 wrote:I have this friend who is in this same predicament. He's from Jersey, and he got a 265 in Feb 2018. Is it honestly worth it to get admitted to any of the 260 UBE states? Anyone with experience here in the tri-state area, who went this route, can you shed some light on the price, CLE reqs...etc. My friend does not really care about the fifis involved in calling himself an attorney, hes looking at the real logistics, whether it'll improve actual financial prospects/opportunities. If you are from NY or NJ which of these jurisdictions would be the most accessible. I understand the question was addressed somewhat in previous posts, but I'm looking for more detail...you know...for my friend.

They're roughly the same in terms of accessibility. I think almost all of them have a decent chunk of non-resident licensees, so don't worry about having to live there. If that's the goal however note that outside of their 'big cities,' all of them are really rural states. There's a need for attorneys in rural (and even some suburban) areas nationwide, including government jobs. So there's definitely work, but coming from NYC/Megalopolis, that'll definitely require a cultural adjustment (to not hate life after a few months).

If your friend's more attached to the Northeast, he can get licensed in one of those states, and then waive into DC (provided the 133+ MBE's met). A law school buddy of mine did just that. He took UBE in NY, missed it by a few pts, got licensed in Minnesota, and waived into DC. He was already living in DC at the time though. On a related note, if Federal practice floats the boat, district rules determine the ability to practice. The SDNY (Manhattan), EDNY (Brooklyn-Long Island), FDNJ and the EDPA (Philly) require state bar membership, but the WDPA (Pittsburgh) and FDMD (Maryland) don't. Obv do research if the goal's to get into firm work. There's enough solo work to keep busy too.

As for process, that's more state specific. Some have the NCBE C&F, others do their own. Except for ND ($400 UBE Transfer fee), they're also expensive ($1000-ish) so be prepared to sign large (& many) checks. Same with CLEs. This would probably be helpful:

http://www.ncbex.org/publications/bar-admissions-guide/

I had classmates licensed in almost all the 260-states so I knew what to expect. I'm also doing a UBE Transfer after taking it in NY, so I can speak firsthand about the NCBE C&F (still ongoing). I also used to live in NY, and made the move (for law school) away, so I can speak on that too. So if you have any questions, ask.

If none of the above sound appealing, just take it (NY/NJ) again, I mean "your friend" missed it by one point. The above pretty much = a move from the tri-state area (unless you want to do the NYC/PHL-DC commute (thanks to Acela, it's the only part of America where you can do this). Considering how NYC's costs of living's skyrocketing, that might not be a bad thing. You can also come back to NY (it requires the last 5/7 years of licensure though).

My $.02

Thanks so much for that fairly thorough explanation, and also for going along with the "friend" shtick. You sir, are top notch. Unfortunately, had i gotten a 133 on my MBE I would of easily passed. I have a problem with MC exams. I overthink most of the questions and end up second guessing myself. Hopefully, I passed this July and the issue will be moot, but in about a month or so i might actually have to make that move. These contract jobs just don't pay what they use to and its a struggle out here in NYC.

cookieslaw15 wrote:Thanks so much for that fairly thorough explanation, and also for going along with the "friend" shtick. You sir, are top notch. Unfortunately, had i gotten a 133 on my MBE I would of easily passed. I have a problem with MC exams. I overthink most of the questions and end up second guessing myself. Hopefully, I passed this July and the issue will be moot, but in about a month or so i might actually have to make that move. These contract jobs just don't pay what they use to and its a struggle out here in NYC.

No worries - I'm glad I could help your "friend" out

I wish I had your problem when I was studying. My main problem was the MEE, which my slow typing made that much worse. I only got over the "repeat bar taking" cycle by adopting a "150 MBE Strategy" (as detailed on this board). If you decide to take it again, it sounds like that'll pretty much solve your MBE problem.

Even with passing, keep your options open. Obviously, passing means you have many more of them. Also (I'm presuming you've done this, but if not...) reach out to your alumni network (and as many local bar associations as you can) now - you'll be making a transition anyway, might as well start asking around how to do it). Presuming you want to stay, you wouldn't be the first. Plenty of attorneys are making it in the NYC area, so don't feel you have to move. But as said before, (without getting into the intricacies of the NYC area's costs of living) there are opportunities outside that could make a move worthwhile.

The worst part's the uncertainty upon not passing. Thanks to the UBE's portability, that's not your problem anymore. You have options (even if you don't pass NY/NJ somehow). You'll be moving on from where you're at soon enough - and that's liberating onto itself. In about 3 weeks, your next chapter begins, celebrate accordingly

Added note: I've included the sample NCBE application below. This isn't an assumption that you haven't passed, but more for you to get an idea of what C&F asks for. I don't know if you have to get C&F done for NJ before the exam, NY allows you to do C&F independently of your exam app (most people do it after the exam). All C&F apps ask for roughly the same things, so knowing what info to include/look for (via old resumes, etc.) makes your filling the form out much easier.

http://www.ncbex.org/dmsdocument/134

But for whatever C&F process you end up doing, send out your app ASAP, as the processing timeline starts (and is determined by) the moment it's received. I would've saved a good chunk of time if I did that, instead of waiting for associated docs (& reference correspondence) to make my app "as complete as possible." Don't be me

My $.02

Wondering if anyone knows off the top of their heads whether a foreign attorney can get called easily in any of the 260 states?

Just found out I got a 261 on the NY bar:(

lady_gaga wrote:Wondering if anyone knows off the top of their heads whether a foreign attorney can get called easily in any of the 260 states?

Just found out I got a 261 on the NY bar:(

Not sure as to "ease" but here are some relevant links:

https://www.bcgsearch.com/article/90004 ... tate-Bars/

http://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=%2 ... df#page=25

JShades33 wrote:

musername wrote:

JShades33 wrote:I got a 264 in Feb and reviewed the requirements for each of the states, MO has the clearest path to licensure.

Thanks. And did you chose to get admitted there? Debating if it's worth it or waste of time and $...

I did. I took the Bar again in NJ just now but, like you, felt like I needed to be licensed. It's pretty costly (the most costly out of the available options at $1200) but comparable to the other jurisdictions - off the top of my head I think MN and NM are $1000. The biggest pain is getting fingerprinted as an out-of-state resident, but you can't avoid this with any of the jurisdictions.

I applied to them as soon as my UBE score was ready to be transferred and they cleared my C&F last Friday.

So it took about 3 months for you to clear C&F? Were there any surprises? I just completed my application to transfer mid-December.

crownjd wrote:So it took about 3 months for you to clear C&F? Were there any surprises? I just completed my application to transfer mid-December.

MN took 4 months from start to finish for me. I mailed in my application in November, and was admitted in March; my registration was effective exactly 4 months and 2 days later.

One big advantage of MN (and ND) over the other 3 low-score jurisdictions is that MN requires 45 hours of CLE every 3 years, whereas AL and NM require 12 hours per year and MO requires 15 hours each year.

That might not sound like a big deal (particularly if you're looking at AL/NM's 12 hour requirement), but, trust me, not having to deal with it every year is a huge plus.

FND wrote:MN took 4 months from start to finish for me. I mailed in my application in November, and was admitted in March; my registration was effective exactly 4 months and 2 days later.

One big advantage of MN (and ND) over the other 3 low-score jurisdictions is that MN requires 45 hours of CLE every 3 years, whereas AL and NM require 12 hours per year and MO requires 15 hours each year.

That might not sound like a big deal (particularly if you're looking at AL/NM's 12 hour requirement), but, trust me, not having to deal with it every year is a huge plus.

Also, FWIW, of those states, MN has probably by far the largest legal market. (Second largest would be MO.) I don't know that I'd ever want to try to break into the tiny and insular AL legal market as a non-Alabamian with no AL ties (same for ND, and NM to a slightly lesser extent).

QContinuum wrote: Also, FWIW, of those states, MN has probably by far the largest legal market. (Second largest would be MO.) I don't know that I'd ever want to try to break into the tiny and insular AL legal market as a non-Alabamian with no AL ties (same for ND, and NM to a slightly lesser extent).

Just to add to this, no matter what, MN is the largest market, and the most open to transplants.
Kansas City is a decent market in Missouri, but someone with more knowledge than me will need to chime in
Alabama is only really viable if you're a true Southerner, and even then, if you don't have connections in the legal community, it's tough going.
ND and NM both have the same issue, which is size/volume. You're mainly looking at very small shops, or maybe outposts from larger firms, so there's no regular hiring program or anything like that. You just have to happen to be in the right place at the right time. Jobs are few and far between, and while they're not against outsiders in the way Alabama is, you'll still need to do a good job convincing employers you're a good fit and that you're there to stay.

FND wrote:

Thanks, FND, agree with all of the above. And just to tie this back to the previous poster's question, which was not only about 260 UBE states but also states that allow foreign law school grads to be admitted: This isn't an area I know much about, but NCBEX's guide at http://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=%2 ... df#page=25 is probably the best place to start. We see from the guide that MN and ND can be written off right away for foreign law school grads. This leaves us with AL, MO, and NM. MO continues to be the best bet, but the major caveat is that foreign law school grads must be admitted to practice law in their home jurisdiction:

NCBEX wrote:Missouri ... Graduates who are not licensed in another state must be admitted to practice law in the foreign country where the foreign law degree was conferred and be in good standing with either (1) full-time practice for 3 of the 5 years preceding the application or (2) completion of 24 credit hours in residence at an ABA-approved law school within the 3 years prior to application or (3) completion of an LL.M. degree from an ABA-approved law school.

Otherwise, if the poster doesn't qualify for admission to the Missouri bar, I'd recommend New Mexico as the runner-up.