UBE transfer- Really need advice

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FND

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by FND » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:48 pm

QContinuum wrote:
I must have missed that part. But on a reread I did pick up the following:
musername wrote:Is it worth trying to get admitted in any of those states if I have no current day intentions to work in any of them?
My quick answer is, no, there's no point in getting admitted in a state that you have no intention to work in.
However, my second answer is yes, it is important to get admitted in at least one state, because of the following:

1) most states allow you to work in-house for a company even if you're not barred in that state, as long as you're barred in at least one state.
1a) some states allow time working in-house to count toward the experience needed for admission on motion (i.e. admitted because you've been practicing for X years).
1b) some states even allow you to work in-house for a law firm, as long as your work is sufficiently insulated from the public.
Note that this varies significantly from state to state

2) some federal jobs only require you to be barred in any state, not necessarily the state where you'll be working

3) federal practice doesn't require you to be barred in the particular state you're practicing in, as long as you're barred in at least one state
3a) the classic example is immigration law, which can be practiced in any state, so long as you're admitted somewhere. Tax court is another example
3b) However, every federal court has its own admissions standards, most of which require you to be admitted locally.
3c) care must be taken to ONLY address federal issues. Immigration lawyers who are not barred locally must stick to immigration only, and cannot advise on e.g. estate planning or family law issues that come up. Likewise, tax controversies usually aren't just limited to federal tax, but also state tax issues - and it's a lot harder to tell a client you'll only do part of the work.

4) military / military spouse. JAG doesn't care where you're admitted as long as you're barred somewhere. Military spouses can get admitted in most states on a temporary basis provided they're barred in at least one State.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by QContinuum » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:59 pm

FND wrote:I must have missed that part.
Sorry for being unclear - I was referring not to OP but to lady_gaga, who posted later in the thread:
lady_gaga wrote:Wondering if anyone knows off the top of their heads whether a foreign attorney can get called easily in any of the 260 states?
Also, many thanks for your comprehensive guide on why it may make sense to get barred somewhere. Very helpful reading for anyone considering whether to pursue admission in a 260 state (or, I suppose, a 266 state, if interested in practicing in a 270 state...). I'd only add two additional factors why it may make sense to get barred somewhere: 1) Psychologically, it can make a real difference. It's one thing to be a "failed" examinee retaking the bar in hopes of passing the second time around. It can feel totally different and much better to be a, say, MN-licensed attorney taking the bar again to gain admission to a second state. And 2) Being a licensed attorney looks good on the ol' CV, and is likely to help one obtain employment, even in a different state. Legal employers are often very concerned about hiring someone who's failed the bar. They tend to be much less concerned about hiring an attorney already licensed in another state.

Of course, there are also downsides, namely cost, and the time/energy it takes to go through C&F in another state. Down the road, ongoing CLE and registration requirements may also be a hassle. So there's definitely pros and cons... but on balance, I think the balance tilts in favor of seeking admission in a 260 state - preferably MN, and if not, then MO.

FND

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by FND » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:11 pm

QContinuum wrote: Legal employers are often very concerned about hiring someone who's failed the bar. They tend to be much less concerned about hiring an attorney already licensed in another state.
Totally forgot about this, and it's very true. I know of attorneys even in 260 states who are very worried about hiring someone who hasn't passed the bar yet. When I looked to lateral, the few times I was asked about taking the bar again, I confidently replied that I considered it a non-issue, I've passed a bar before, I can pass it again, and the matter was quickly put to rest. Not once did a passing score ever get mentioned, nor was there any discussion that the state I was applying to might have a higher passing score than where I was admitted. (nor did I volunteer that my score might not have been high enough to get admitted in said state)

QContinuum

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by QContinuum » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:46 am

FND wrote:Not once did a passing score ever get mentioned, nor was there any discussion that the state I was applying to might have a higher passing score than where I was admitted. (nor did I volunteer that my score might not have been high enough to get admitted in said state)
This is, I think, a very helpful artifact of the fact that the UBE really only took off starting ~2016, and most attorneys senior enough to be interviewers still remember the pre-UBE days, when every state had its own bar exam.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:03 am

I recently applied to ND and was wondering how long C&F took. I don't have any red flags, so I can't imagine any possible hold ups. Does anyone have any experience with ND in particular?

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by Jmmaek » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:34 pm

QContinuum wrote:
FND wrote:Not once did a passing score ever get mentioned, nor was there any discussion that the state I was applying to might have a higher passing score than where I was admitted. (nor did I volunteer that my score might not have been high enough to get admitted in said state)
This is, I think, a very helpful artifact of the fact that the UBE really only took off starting ~2016, and most attorneys senior enough to be interviewers still remember the pre-UBE days, when every state had its own bar exam.
I appreciate this post. UBE is becoming nationwide. Will it ever break into Florida or California, probably not. Nevada? Maybe, it broke Texas this year...

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by QContinuum » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:12 pm

Jmmaek wrote:I appreciate this post. UBE is becoming nationwide. Will it ever break into Florida or California, probably not. Nevada? Maybe, it broke Texas this year...
http://www.ncbex.org/exams/ube/

The UBE has now been adopted by the vast majority of states. Of the non-UBE states, some - notably Pennsylvania and Virginia - allow practicing lawyers admitted in reciprocal jurisdictions (including many/most UBE jurisdictions) to waive in after accruing several years' experience.

The "major-market" non-UBE and non-waiver states are pretty much limited to California, Delaware and Florida at this point, and though I'm no expert, I'd be shocked if any of these states changed in the foreseeable future. Though, never say never. NJ never used to allow candidates to waive in (due to protectionist reasons to "keep the NY lawyers out!"), but then all of a sudden it joined the UBE and allowed candidates to waive in...

FND

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by FND » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:26 pm

QContinuum wrote:The UBE has now been adopted by the vast majority of states.
I actually don't like this development. It's fine for states that mostly just follow model laws, but, some states have very idiosyncratic laws, and should retain their own exams.

One of the states I'm licensed in has a very particular rule in my area of expertise, and I find it hilarious when CLE speakers from other states come in (which happens regularly), and their CLE basically is all wrong, because while their advise is great in 49 states, it's a great way to get sued for malpractice in that state.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by QContinuum » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:40 pm

FND wrote:
QContinuum wrote:The UBE has now been adopted by the vast majority of states.
I actually don't like this development. It's fine for states that mostly just follow model laws, but, some states have very idiosyncratic laws, and should retain their own exams.

One of the states I'm licensed in has a very particular rule in my area of expertise, and I find it hilarious when CLE speakers from other states come in (which happens regularly), and their CLE basically is all wrong, because while their advise is great in 49 states, it's a great way to get sued for malpractice in that state.
In the modern era, I would argue that no lawyer can/should ethically rely on the fact of their bar passage (whether UBE or non-UBE) to assume they can provide accurate legal advice on any random issue. You can develop expertise in a particular area of law over time, but until you develop such expertise, you should always double-check before giving advice. Pre-Internet, thorough double-checking might be impracticable in many cases, but these days there's really no excuse not to double-check.

I don't think state-specific exams help that much. To the contrary, passing a state-specific bar might make a newly licensed lawyer overconfident in his knowledge of that state's laws.

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FND

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by FND » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:45 pm

QContinuum wrote:I don't think state-specific exams help that much. To the contrary, passing a state-specific bar might make a newly licensed lawyer overconfident in his knowledge of that state's laws.
Maybe so, but I've seen too many instances of attorneys giving advice based on the law as it exists in the other 49 states.
Unfortunately, had to refer one to the bar for disciplinary matters.

As an easy example, with a narrow exception, I think it's malpractice for any attorney to allow their clients to incorporate in New York. Yet I know plenty of corporate and startup attorneys in New York who don't know why I said that.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by QContinuum » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:36 pm

FND wrote:As an easy example, with a narrow exception, I think it's malpractice for any attorney to allow their clients to incorporate in New York. Yet I know plenty of corporate and startup attorneys in New York who don't know why I said that.
Unwise, sure, but malpractice?

I'll also point out that most of the New York attorneys you know probably took the pre-UBE NY bar (NY only adopted the UBE in July 2016, not so long ago), and that even post-UBE, NY administers a state-specific exam component (the NYLE).

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by twomskim » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:08 pm

Hello all,

I also have a question about admission on motion so I thought I’d post it here. If I need to make a new post, admin please let me know.

I was just wondering if anyone here has been admitted to practice by motion and could provide your insight. My situation is that I got a JD & LLM in Tax, and got licensed in a UBE state. My only legal work experience was that with a Big 4 Tax/Accounting firm, specially M&A Tax - so I do a lot of legal research and writing memos with other attorneys in the group. Recently, we moved to another UBE state where the minimum passing score is a point higher than my UBE score. :cry: And so I would like to apply for admission in this state by motion to apply for jobs. This state requires 3 years of licensure (out of 5 years) which is not an issue. My only concern is whether my prior M&A experience at the Big 4 Tax/Accounting firm would count as legal.

The state bar’s website is informative but doesn’t really address my specific situation. I called them left a message and also sent a follow-up email but still haven’t heard back (they probably closed the office due to everything that’s going on right now).

Has anyone here been admitted to practice by motion with a similar work experience? I understand the process varies among states but just wanted to get a general idea of what people have done and how your state views attorneys work in public accounting firms. I’m trying to avoid taking the exam again. So any insight / advice would be much appreciated.

b290

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by b290 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:47 pm

twomskim wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:08 pm
Hello all,

I also have a question about admission on motion so I thought I’d post it here. If I need to make a new post, admin please let me know.
Hello, two! Your experience is clearly legal experience. It’s directly related to practice and it should be (at least somewhat) legally relevant. You’re an attorney now so you can make the argument for how it’s relevant to wherever you’re applying. :D

The main issue (for admission) is what the state Bar (State B - your new state) means by “3 out of the last 5 years.” As long as the State means practicing for 3 out of the last 5 years before your application (to your new state), then you don’t need to take another exam. File your motion, pay your money, and welcome! :lol:

The other part (as to the experience) would be better answered in the professional forum. I’ll take a stab and say it’s relevant. If you’re applying for Tax/Accounting, you’re pretty much golden. Your Big 4 experience will also carry you somewhat for commercial legal jobs.

Also, look for jobs anyway. Just tell the prospective employer that your application (to State B) is pending and that you’re already licensed. Some will be willing to take you on anyway, provided you “wow” them. But, again, the professional forums can give more specific advice.

My $.02

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by Shellback » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm

FND wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:03 pm
crownjd wrote:So it took about 3 months for you to clear C&F?
MN took 4 months from start to finish for me. I mailed in my application in November, and was admitted in March; my registration was effective exactly 4 months and 2 days later.
I wanted to add my timeline as another data point for anyone making a decision on where to transfer a score. I transferred into MN and was surprised by how quick the turnaround was, 34 days for C&F/letter recommending admission. Admitted via monthly ceremony 2 months and 8 days following my application submission, but I could have flown a few days after getting my C&F/admission recommendation letter and made the earlier admission ceremony. I'm not sure how quickly they process out-of-state oaths of admission and whether that also would have been quicker.

I believe that 2 factors may have helped speed up my application. First, military veteran status with many of my references being military officers. My current boss mentioned that the C&F representative requested to talk to her director to provide another reference because they had not heard back from one of my references yet. They may do that with every applicant, but if not, I can imagine that some C&F people may choose to do that either because they know I've gone through a secret clearance before and can rely on that, or just based on some good ole fashioned rah-rah patriotism.

Second, I provided a cover letter explaining my ties to MN. Based on this thread's advice, I submitted the application while still waiting to get a few required documents. Since I needed to explain that, I decided to put it in a full blown cover letter in which I mentioned having family ties to MN and having spent plenty of time in the state. Based on my experience I would definitely recommend including a cover letter in your application and if all other factors are equal, I would pick a state where you have some sort of tie to the community.

Also, with the Alabama outsider comments earlier, I figure I should provide my perspective on MN. I can't speak to the legal community in particular, but MN does have a reputation for preferring Minnesotans over outsiders. For example, despite having attended undergrad in MN, my sister could not land job interviews until she changed her phone number to get the MN area code. Magically things started opening up despite no other changes to her resume. I've also heard many times about an unofficial requirement that MN colleges fill a certain percentage of NCAA roster sports with MN high schools grads. I don't think MN is anywhere near AL levels, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some hoops to jump through for people looking to get jobs and assimilate to the area.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by KFelton910 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:05 pm

Shellback wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:07 pm
FND wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:03 pm
crownjd wrote:So it took about 3 months for you to clear C&F?
MN took 4 months from start to finish for me. I mailed in my application in November, and was admitted in March; my registration was effective exactly 4 months and 2 days later.
I wanted to add my timeline as another data point for anyone making a decision on where to transfer a score. I transferred into MN and was surprised by how quick the turnaround was, 34 days for C&F/letter recommending admission. Admitted via monthly ceremony 2 months and 8 days following my application submission, but I could have flown a few days after getting my C&F/admission recommendation letter and made the earlier admission ceremony. I'm not sure how quickly they process out-of-state oaths of admission and whether that also would have been quicker.

I believe that 2 factors may have helped speed up my application. First, military veteran status with many of my references being military officers. My current boss mentioned that the C&F representative requested to talk to her director to provide another reference because they had not heard back from one of my references yet. They may do that with every applicant, but if not, I can imagine that some C&F people may choose to do that either because they know I've gone through a secret clearance before and can rely on that, or just based on some good ole fashioned rah-rah patriotism.

Second, I provided a cover letter explaining my ties to MN. Based on this thread's advice, I submitted the application while still waiting to get a few required documents. Since I needed to explain that, I decided to put it in a full blown cover letter in which I mentioned having family ties to MN and having spent plenty of time in the state. Based on my experience I would definitely recommend including a cover letter in your application and if all other factors are equal, I would pick a state where you have some sort of tie to the community.

Also, with the Alabama outsider comments earlier, I figure I should provide my perspective on MN. I can't speak to the legal community in particular, but MN does have a reputation for preferring Minnesotans over outsiders. For example, despite having attended undergrad in MN, my sister could not land job interviews until she changed her phone number to get the MN area code. Magically things started opening up despite no other changes to her resume. I've also heard many times about an unofficial requirement that MN colleges fill a certain percentage of NCAA roster sports with MN high schools grads. I don't think MN is anywhere near AL levels, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some hoops to jump through for people looking to get jobs and assimilate to the area.
Thanks for this! I've been searching high and low for an answer like this as to what to expect. I applied to MN almost exactly 2 months ago. I included EVERYTHING in my application, I have been extremely responsive on the portal, I also wrote a cover letter as to why my intentions are to be licensed there since I'm a NY'er. I think my cover letter was about 3 pages long and it addressed both some financial difficulties I struggled with post-grad as well as my intention to operate a virtual immigration firm so as to reach clients in rural areas. I marked every piece of evidence with colored tabs and labeled them, annotated on things like my credit score, and hunted down docs from a small claims suit I filed back before law school. I wasn't even the one being sued but I still needed to provide the judgment and what the city had on file. I know one of the holdups has been a former employer who has been non-responsive to both the Board and to myself. I've been emailing said employer since April, contacted a paralegal that works for the attorney via her personal FB, gave the Board a supplemental sheet with the emails for every single partner in the office, as well as further contacts for any other employer of mine. I showed them my due diligence and it appears last week they said that they marked it waived, but if the employer gets back to them, they'll let me know. I hope that's promising. I'm quite eager to get my letter and arrange being sworn in.

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by Shellback » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:04 pm

KFelton910 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:05 pm
...I applied to MN almost exactly 2 months ago....I showed them my due diligence and it appears last week they said that they marked it waived, but if the employer gets back to them, they'll let me know. I hope that's promising. I'm quite eager to get my letter and arrange being sworn in.
Getting a waiver for the employer at the 2 month mark sounds great! Especially when I read about DC taking 10-12 months for UBE transfers. Good luck!

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by KFelton910 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:26 pm

Shellback wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:04 pm
KFelton910 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:05 pm
...I applied to MN almost exactly 2 months ago....I showed them my due diligence and it appears last week they said that they marked it waived, but if the employer gets back to them, they'll let me know. I hope that's promising. I'm quite eager to get my letter and arrange being sworn in.
Getting a waiver for the employer at the 2 month mark sounds great! Especially when I read about DC taking 10-12 months for UBE transfers. Good luck!
Awesome. Thank you for the encouragement! I'm eager to get that letter approving my admission. I know that they say it can take 3-6 months, but with all my action items complete, I'm wondering what is left to do. Do you know how they handle the process? Once they have all the documents they require how do they come to a final decision? Do they have a meeting? Is it once a month like their monthly admissions? So many questions!

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Shellback

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by Shellback » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm

I honestly have no idea. I'd just keep an eye on your email/portal but otherwise try not to stress out about it!

KFelton910

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Re: UBE transfer- Really need advice

Post by KFelton910 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:42 pm

Shellback wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm
I honestly have no idea. I'd just keep an eye on your email/portal but otherwise try not to stress out about it!
Thanks again, and congratulations!

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