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davidsimani wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:49 pm

*REDACTED*

Hey, I am currently in a similar situation. Have you made any progress with the CA Bar and do you have any advice you can share about the process? Thanks in Advance!

I can weigh in here. I was recently approved after having more than 10 criminal misdemeanor charges resulting in more than five misdemeanor convictions. One was related to alcohol. Most of the rest were related to arguing with or running from cops. I also made other poor choices that resulted in job terminations. The process was emotionally challenging and effortful. It took me roughly 2 years from the date I applied for C+F and roughly 20 months after I passed the bar exam to be approved.

In my view, the best thing someone with a past like us can do is hire an attorney (and the RIGHT attorney) before filing any C+F paperwork. This can avoid certain issues on the front end. If you've already filed, hire one now. Be wary of certain attorneys operating in this space--some are of low quality and offer "one size fits all" advice. Avoid those attorneys. Try not to fret too much over requests for additional information from the bar--this is essentially a formality for anyone who has something in their past.

In a broader sense, all or most of the concerns voiced in this thread previously are founded, in my opinion. This process does disadvantage people with a past. It is, arguably, disproportionate to most of the infractions that lead to heightened scrutiny and delay. However, it is potentially surmountable for almost everyone with both short and long lists of prior indiscretions. In my opinion, it remains our duty as current and future members of the California bar to seek reform of this prejudicial process. In my opinion, our best avenue for reform are the public California bar meetings where there is time for public comment on internal bar association operations.

I think our leading argument for reform--and the one that will reduce the greatest source of harm to formerly justice involved applicants--is focusing on the lack of efficiency in the moral character determination process. There is little reason or justification why even applicants with spotless records must wait 6+ months for a moral character determination when studying for and passing the bar exam takes half that time. No other states (save for perhaps Florida) face such delays. New York is much more efficient.

In many ways, California leads the nation in technological advancement and industry. We should seek to address the problem, in my opinion, by encouraging adoption of a system that sends applicants without criminal records through an automated system that green lights them without the months and months of bottle-necked delay brought upon by a dozen or so human bar C+F investigators. Freeing up the C+F investigators to focus on only those candidates (like us) with justice-involved pasts would enable them to pass everyone through (both the spotless applicants and the blemished applicants) in a much more efficient and orderly fashion.

I sympathize with anyone who is subjected to this experience and I wish you the best.

Does it take longer to complete the process for someone who:
1) is not a US citizen and does not live in the US;
2) has 25 years of work history with 9 different employers in 4 different foreign countries;
3) is a licensed lawyer in a foreign country;
4) has a CPA license in another US jurisdiction and a foreign jurisdiction;

I am all of the above; and am wondering how does the State Bar conduct the checks when virtually all of my history is outside of the US...

Anyone with a similar background can share his/her experience?

Thank you.

Is anyone aware of an oath card backlog?

I passed the October exam and received a positive moral character determination on April 12. That April 12 e-mail said that I should receive my admissions materials within three to four weeks. But it's almost been two months now, and I still haven't heard anything.

Wondering if anyone else is having the same experience . . .

is there anywhere to see a copy of the moral application form? it's online now, but i'm not a law student. want to know what's on it. i see one older version online but not sure if the questions have changed.

i found this on calbar website. i know the application is online now; are these the same questions on the online version or are they different

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/portals/0/doc ... ebform.pdf

It looks about the same as the new online version. Except they don't ask for a release of medical records any more. Also, their online application and uploading sequence is clunky. Not user friendly at all.

Hi All,

So I went at this moral exam alone, no attorney, etc. After 7 months, I received the email regarding my assigned investigator. About a week later the investigator asked for more documentation and narratives. Briefly, I have an old infraction on my record (reduced from a misdemeanor), an EDD collection which I paid off years ago, a small claims case which led to a bk filing in 2017, and a 2019 family matter that was ultimately dismissed by my son’s mother. Anyhow, I submitted all the documentation and narratives as requested.

Today I received an email from my assigned investigator stating that my case was assigned for further review. I called and he answered. He told me that it’s common to submit to a supervisor for further review just in case “he missed anything.” Not sure if I’m done for, but I’m surely freaking out! I don’t know what else it could be. The email stated that they will reach out if they need additional information. Ugh.

Has anyone been at this stage in the process? Should I hire an attorney?

Thank you.

Hi All,

So I went at this moral exam alone, no attorney, etc. After 7 months, I received the email regarding my assigned investigator. About a week later the investigator asked for more documentation and narratives. Briefly, I have an old infraction on my record (reduced from a misdemeanor), an EDD collection which I paid off years ago, a small claims case which led to a bk filing in 2017, and a 2019 family matter that was ultimately dismissed by my son’s mother. Anyhow, I submitted all the documentation and narratives as requested.

Today I received an email from my assigned investigator stating that my case was assigned for further review. I called and he answered. He told me that it’s common to submit to a supervisor for further review just in case “he missed anything.” Not sure if I’m done for, but I’m surely freaking out! I don’t know what else it could be. The email stated that they will reach out if they need additional information. Ugh.

Has anyone been at this stage in the process? Should I hire an attorney?

Thank you.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:17 am

Hi All,

So I went at this moral exam alone, no attorney, etc. After 7 months, I received the email regarding my assigned investigator. About a week later the investigator asked for more documentation and narratives. Briefly, I have an old infraction on my record (reduced from a misdemeanor), an EDD collection which I paid off years ago, a small claims case which led to a bk filing in 2017, and a 2019 family matter that was ultimately dismissed by my son’s mother. Anyhow, I submitted all the documentation and narratives as requested.

Today I received an email from my assigned investigator stating that my case was assigned for further review. I called and he answered. He told me that it’s common to submit to a supervisor for further review just in case “he missed anything.” Not sure if I’m done for, but I’m surely freaking out! I don’t know what else it could be. The email stated that they will reach out if they need additional information. Ugh.

Has anyone been at this stage in the process? Should I hire an attorney?

Thank you.

YES. Unequivocally, YES, hire an attorney. My situtation sounds similar. I was denied admission after the "informal conference." Your attorney can't speak at the informal conference, but he/she will be able to tell from the questions they are asking what your chances are and if you should prepare to appeal a denial. I hired a guy out of SoCal. He charged me $2,500.00 to help with the application. That covers everything up to an informal conference. It'll be another $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 for attending the informal conference depending on location. I truly hope it's not in S.F. I much, much prefer L.A.

Louis88 wrote: ↑

Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:54 pm

My video conference is in two weeks. They already know about the DUI's and I had to send the addendum discussing my relationship with alcohol. I am pretty screwed I feel. Also, we are in a pandemic and I am not going to AA right now as I live with a cancer survivor and pretty much avoid going anywhere

Feel free to send me a PM if you want information about Other Bar meetings on Zoom or any other AA questions or meetings. Anyone else can contact me as well, whether anonymously or not. There is some information on Google as well.

Just chiming in with the observation that there seems to be little rhyme or reason to the MC investigation. I was previously licensed in multiple other jurisdictions and had nothing more serious than a speeding ticket to disclose. Sailed through other jurisdictions without the slightest hint of difficulty, or any follow-up requests. California, meanwhile, took almost a year with barely any explanation. I was assigned to an investigator who never answered the phone, and posed a bunch of genuinely bizarre follow-up questions to me, including detailed requests for information about working as a summer associate while "unlicensed." It was a genuinely, unnecessarily stressful experience, and--again, because my investigator never answered the phone and only occasionally responded to e-mail correspondence--not at all confidence-inspiring.

The State Bar is focusing on the UPL like it never has before. You may think the questions are bizarre, but I urge you to review that period. If anyone said anything that can be construed as implying you were practicing law without a license, the State Bar will seize on it. UPL has become a huge problem everywhere, but especially in CA.

I urge you to contact a C&F attorney. Do a basic search and you'll come up with a couple. It might be worth a couple of thousand dollars to have them look at the application. Just in case. If you get called into an informal conference about it, you want to know what they know and what their concerns are. An attorney who practices in this area will be able to tell you.

God bless you. I hope you get good news and soon.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:20 pm

The State Bar is focusing on the UPL like it never has before. You may think the questions are bizarre, but I urge you to review that period. If anyone said anything that can be construed as implying you were practicing law without a license, the State Bar will seize on it. UPL has become a huge problem everywhere, but especially in CA.

I urge you to contact a C&F attorney. Do a basic search and you'll come up with a couple. It might be worth a couple of thousand dollars to have them look at the application. Just in case. If you get called into an informal conference about it, you want to know what they know and what their concerns are. An attorney who practices in this area will be able to tell you.

God bless you. I hope you get good news and soon.

the C&F packet doesn't ask about UPL; why would they suspect you of this? i guess if you disclose legal employment and they ask for your law license in that place?

noice wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:20 pm

The State Bar is focusing on the UPL like it never has before. You may think the questions are bizarre, but I urge you to review that period. If anyone said anything that can be construed as implying you were practicing law without a license, the State Bar will seize on it. UPL has become a huge problem everywhere, but especially in CA.

I urge you to contact a C&F attorney. Do a basic search and you'll come up with a couple. It might be worth a couple of thousand dollars to have them look at the application. Just in case. If you get called into an informal conference about it, you want to know what they know and what their concerns are. An attorney who practices in this area will be able to tell you.

God bless you. I hope you get good news and soon.

the C&F packet doesn't ask about UPL; why would they suspect you of this? i guess if you disclose legal employment and they ask for your law license in that place?

To be clear, I was OP who got the bizarre questions and--as I thought I'd made plain in my post--ultimately was admitted with no further hiccups. What struck me as bizarre wasn't that they'd ask about UPL generally, but that they'd do so with respect to SA jobs at large/reputable firms *as a law student.* (Like, I was a law student; of course I wasn't licensed.) I couldn't decide whether my assigned investigator just wasn't very bright, had developed some sort of hostility towards me for reasons about which I could only speculate, or both. Either way, all worked out fine after about a year. It was just way more obnoxious than it needed to be, and my assigned investigator's frequent refusal to communicate definitely raised my stress levels. (FWIW, the Dean of Students at my CA T-14 was also baffled and, I gather, made several calls on my behalf.)

is there any downside to applying for moral character as early as 1L? Anything stopping someone from doing that? They are good for 36 months upon final determination, which would give plenty of time to take the bar..

would having like 20 applications as a police officer (never got hired, finally did on the last one) cause me problems? these are technically applications for a license that were denied (POST license). this was like 10 years ago.

so i forgot to put my GPA in junior college in my law school app. i guess i left it blank. i also left blank my high school GPA (I was homeschooled; no transcripts). the law school has my junior college transcripts, so they know my GPA.

is this going to be a problem?

noice wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:05 pm

is there any downside to applying for moral character as early as 1L? Anything stopping someone from doing that? They are good for 36 months upon final determination, which would give plenty of time to take the bar..

None. In hindsight, I wish I would have done it that way. It might have saved me a lot of time, trouble, and disappointment.

noice wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:40 pm

the C&F packet doesn't ask about UPL; why would they suspect you of this? i guess if you disclose legal employment and they ask for your law license in that place?

My attorney told me that anything that can be construed as UPL will be looked into. For instance: independent paralegal work, legal writing gigs, investigation services, helping people apply for citizenship, and things of this nature will almost always send up a red flag for the investigator.

My attorney and I went through every last detail of every independent gig and W2 job I've ever had. There were all sorts of addendums and additional letters required. It was a real effort, but my lawyer said we needed to answer their questions before they asked them.

The application asks if you have ever been accused of UPL. If you start getting requests for more information about a particular job, pay attention. This is what they may be looking for

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:32 pm

so i forgot to put my GPA in junior college in my law school app. i guess i left it blank. i also left blank my high school GPA (I was homeschooled; no transcripts). the law school has my junior college transcripts, so they know my GPA.

is this going to be a problem?

???? Where on the application was there anything about your undergrad GPA? Let alone junior college? High school GPA? Nah. No such thing on the application. None. Maybe you're confusing CA's application with another state's?

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:43 pm

would having like 20 applications as a police officer (never got hired, finally did on the last one) cause me problems? these are technically applications for a license that were denied (POST license). this was like 10 years ago.

How is an application for a position as a LEO technically an applicaton for a license that was denied because you didn't get the job? Can you provide some sort of reference from the State Bar that states that or even infers it? Thanx.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:43 pm

would having like 20 applications as a police officer (never got hired, finally did on the last one) cause me problems? these are technically applications for a license that were denied (POST license). this was like 10 years ago.

How is an application for a position as a LEO technically an applicaton for a license that was denied because you didn't get the job? Can you provide some sort of reference from the State Bar that states that or even infers it? Thanx.

the Cal Bar FAQ says you have to list applications for anything that require a determination of moral character, to include a government security clearance (which is NOT a license, and arguably not within the scope of the question, so if you didn't read the FAQ you probably wouldn't know)

2. I have a government security clearance. Do I have to report my security clearance
certification in the moral character application?
Yes. The moral character application requires the disclosure of all professional licenses
that include a character determination component (e.g., questions concerning
convictions or disciplinary matters), including security clearance certifications. Examples
of professional licenses that typically include a character determination component
include licensure as a Certified Public Accountant, Patent Practitioner, Real Estate
Salesperson or Broker, Notary Public, or Teacher.

(Again, a security clearance is not a license. It does require a moral character determination, but is not a license...)

Anyway, an LEO application in many states is ultimately an application for a peace officer license (California, Arizona, etc etc). This application requires a moral character determination (background check). Thus, you should list it.

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/doc ... er-FAQ.pdf

CalGirl2021 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:16 pm

noice wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:40 pm

the C&F packet doesn't ask about UPL; why would they suspect you of this? i guess if you disclose legal employment and they ask for your law license in that place?

The application asks if you have ever been accused of UPL. If you start getting requests for more information about a particular job, pay attention. This is what they may be looking for

hm i dont see it on the app. i have a paper copy. lots of states ask it i just dont see it on the CA one. im probably wrong though maybe its on the online version.

noice wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:43 pm

would having like 20 applications as a police officer (never got hired, finally did on the last one) cause me problems? these are technically applications for a license that were denied (POST license). this was like 10 years ago.

How is an application for a position as a LEO technically an applicaton for a license that was denied because you didn't get the job? Can you provide some sort of reference from the State Bar that states that or even infers it? Thanx.

the Cal Bar FAQ says you have to list applications for anything that require a determination of moral character, to include a government security clearance (which is NOT a license, and arguably not within the scope of the question, so if you didn't read the FAQ you probably wouldn't know)

2. I have a government security clearance. Do I have to report my security clearance
certification in the moral character application?
Yes. The moral character application requires the disclosure of all professional licenses
that include a character determination component (e.g., questions concerning
convictions or disciplinary matters), including security clearance certifications. Examples
of professional licenses that typically include a character determination component
include licensure as a Certified Public Accountant, Patent Practitioner, Real Estate
Salesperson or Broker, Notary Public, or Teacher.

(Again, a security clearance is not a license. It does require a moral character determination, but is not a license...)

Anyway, an LEO application in many states is ultimately an application for a peace officer license (California, Arizona, etc etc). This application requires a moral character determination (background check). Thus, you should list it.

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/doc ... er-FAQ.pdf

I read it. So did my attorney. Nowhere does it state you have to list 20 applications for employment as a peace officer. However, if you and your attorney believe it is prudent, then by all means list them. But again, nowhere does the application or the Rules require it.

From the document you cited:

3. Do I have to disclose a potential place of employment in the moral character application? No. The moral character application requires that the applicant disclose any job lasting more than six months and any law-related job, regardless of the length of time employed, where the applicant is either employed at the time the moral character application is filed or has been employed.

The application for moral character determination is how you present yourself to the bar. Do yourself a HUGE favor and have an attorney help you with it.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:44 am

noice wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:43 pm

would having like 20 applications as a police officer (never got hired, finally did on the last one) cause me problems? these are technically applications for a license that were denied (POST license). this was like 10 years ago.

How is an application for a position as a LEO technically an applicaton for a license that was denied because you didn't get the job? Can you provide some sort of reference from the State Bar that states that or even infers it? Thanx.

the Cal Bar FAQ says you have to list applications for anything that require a determination of moral character, to include a government security clearance (which is NOT a license, and arguably not within the scope of the question, so if you didn't read the FAQ you probably wouldn't know)

2. I have a government security clearance. Do I have to report my security clearance
certification in the moral character application?
Yes. The moral character application requires the disclosure of all professional licenses
that include a character determination component (e.g., questions concerning
convictions or disciplinary matters), including security clearance certifications. Examples
of professional licenses that typically include a character determination component
include licensure as a Certified Public Accountant, Patent Practitioner, Real Estate
Salesperson or Broker, Notary Public, or Teacher.

(Again, a security clearance is not a license. It does require a moral character determination, but is not a license...)

Anyway, an LEO application in many states is ultimately an application for a peace officer license (California, Arizona, etc etc). This application requires a moral character determination (background check). Thus, you should list it.

https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Portals/0/doc ... er-FAQ.pdf

I read it. So did my attorney. Nowhere does it state you have to list 20 applications for employment as a peace officer. However, if you and your attorney believe it is prudent, then by all means list them. But again, nowhere does the application or the Rules require it.

From the document you cited:

3. Do I have to disclose a potential place of employment in the moral character application? No. The moral character application requires that the applicant disclose any job lasting more than six months and any law-related job, regardless of the length of time employed, where the applicant is either employed at the time the moral character application is filed or has been employed.

The application for moral character determination is how you present yourself to the bar. Do yourself a HUGE favor and have an attorney help you with it.

The form is conflicting at it hinges on whether you were "denied" a license or not. Not being hired doesn't necessarily mean you were "denied" a license. Maybe you just sucked at the interview.