Indiana University - Bloomington students taking questions Forum

[superflush]

Is the final grade entirely a result of the exam? Does class participation have any place in it?

Yes. With the exception of Leg Prof which is partially based on an exam and partially "criterion-based."

Does class participation have any place in it?

Rarely. It could potentially give you a bump, but I don't think that happens often.

[Fark-o-vision]

Probably belongs in the lounge, but are there any good gyms in Bloomington? I can't imagine a city with twenty thousand (or whatever) college students could make it without a gym, but I can't even find info for one on campus. The few that I can find on the internet in town seem like pretty weak sauce. Any suggestions?

[Bobeo]

Probably belongs in the lounge, but are there any good gyms in Bloomington? I can't imagine a city with twenty thousand (or whatever) college students could make it without a gym, but I can't even find info for one on campus. The few that I can find on the internet in town seem like pretty weak sauce. Any suggestions?

I'm only an UG but the on campus gym is pretty nice- the SRSC. Probably a 15 minute walk from Maurer though.

[LogosEther]

Probably belongs in the lounge, but are there any good gyms in Bloomington? I can't imagine a city with twenty thousand (or whatever) college students could make it without a gym, but I can't even find info for one on campus. The few that I can find on the internet in town seem like pretty weak sauce. Any suggestions?

Hey, so there's a little info on the gyms on pages 76-78 of this thread.

Also, the website is here:

http://www.iurecsports.org/

You can see the facility hours and information and such.

You can see where the gyms are by looking for them on Google Maps, too. Their names are SRSC and HPER.

Overall, I'm definitely happy with them, they're well run. I used both the HPER and SRSC all the time.

[thmgoodw]

Probably belongs in the lounge, but are there any good gyms in Bloomington? I can't imagine a city with twenty thousand (or whatever) college students could make it without a gym, but I can't even find info for one on campus. The few that I can find on the internet in town seem like pretty weak sauce. Any suggestions?

If you want a real gym to lift, there is only one option. http://www.ironpit.com/. They also have some cool strong man type of things too (huge tires to flip, chains, huge rocks, etc.) Chalk is encouraged, rather than being a ban-able offense.

The two owners compete in both powerlifting and olympic-style weightlifting, and you get a key card so you can access the gym 24 hours a day. A former Maurer 2003 (I think?) grad (Phil Gutwein) actually set some indiana state powerlifting records while at IU and working out at the Pit.

If you want a gym to wear spandex to or stare at undergrad co-eds, go to the SRSC.

If you want a gym to wear normal gym clothes to, but where the employees and other gym members will throw a hissy fit if you do serious lifting or do things like powercleans or deadlifts, then go to the HPER.

Now if running laps or using machines to hit the middle quadricep head is want you want, then the SRSC or HPER might fit the bell

[danquayle]

Is the final grade entirely a result of the exam? Does class participation have any place in it?

Yes. With the exception of Leg Prof which is partially based on an exam and partially "criterion-based."

Does class participation have any place in it?

Rarely. It could potentially give you a bump, but I don't think that happens often.

Depends on the class. Some of the higher level classes could be almost all participation based. In conrad's class, for example.

[superflush]

Depends on the class. Some of the higher level classes could be almost all participation based. In conrad's class, for example.

Yes. I should have prefaced it by saying: for the 1L courses.

[Spoonmanners]

Is the final grade entirely a result of the exam? Does class participation have any place in it?

Yes. With the exception of Leg Prof which is partially based on an exam and partially "criterion-based."

Does class participation have any place in it?

Rarely. It could potentially give you a bump, but I don't think that happens often.

Depends on the class. Some of the higher level classes could be almost all participation based. In conrad's class, for example.

Conrad is like 30-40% participate based. Pretty damn high. Highest by far, actually, but some other teachers do incorporate a participation/paper percentage you don't find in the typical bar class.

[Verity]

Is the final grade entirely a result of the exam? Does class participation have any place in it?

Yes. With the exception of Leg Prof which is partially based on an exam and partially "criterion-based."

Does class participation have any place in it?

Rarely. It could potentially give you a bump, but I don't think that happens often.

Depends on the class. Some of the higher level classes could be almost all participation based. In conrad's class, for example.

What does Conrad teach?

[thmgoodw]

Is the final grade entirely a result of the exam? Does class participation have any place in it?

Yes. With the exception of Leg Prof which is partially based on an exam and partially "criterion-based."

Does class participation have any place in it?

Rarely. It could potentially give you a bump, but I don't think that happens often.

Depends on the class. Some of the higher level classes could be almost all participation based. In conrad's class, for example.

What does Conrad teach?

Per Maurer's website, looks like lately he has been involved with:

Remedies (B603)
Family Law (B608)
American Legal History (B659)
Constitutional History Colloquium (B760)

Thankfully I guess I was too busy taking biz law classes so I never took him (I just knew he taught that "other" stuff...so was never on my radar). Although I considered myself an above-average class participator, I think I would have gone nuts if I had a class that was so much based on participation. Give me the exam and get out of the way.

[kings84_wr]

I know legal profession has its own participation points, but Steele also claimed to bump around 10% maximum of students.

Heidt also claimed to bump in extreme cases.

[Anonyme]

Hello everyone, a friend directed me to this forum. I'm going to be at IU-B this fall, and I'm currently looking for a roommate. It's a two-bedroom, two-bath apartment available in a quiet, mature community. Looking for a roommate, male or female, preferably a law student. The apartment is at Renwick City Flats, which located approximately 2 miles from the law school ( --LinkRemoved-- , see New York model). Rent (including utilities, television and internet) will be $725/month. A bus route to the law school, starting at 7:10AM Monday through Friday, runs about every 5-10 minutes. The apartment was constructed in December of 2009, and is practically brand new. Each room is very spacious and has its own bathroom. The apartment has 12-foot ceilings, a porch, a full kitchen, and a living room. Photos and a floor-plan are available upon request. The ideal roommate would be a reasonably quiet, responsible law student, with no pets or distracting habits.

Feel free to send me a "PM" regarding the room.

[daylightsavings]

So I know this may have been addressed earlier on in the thread but judging by the nearly 100 page length I didn't feel a strong desire to go through it all again. I'm from Illinois and it is my strong desire to work in Chicago after graduation. I was just wondering what current students felt about getting placed there. Judging from the info IUB gives out there was only like 15 grads placed in Chicago last year which seems pretty small considering the class is 200+. I would be looking for private practice but I don't need to be in a top 10 firm or anything that huge. I just don't know how good the OCI or even the opportunities are at IUB for Chicago and felt that the admissions office wouldn't be the best place to get unbiased information.

[kings84_wr]

So I know this may have been addressed earlier on in the thread but judging by the nearly 100 page length I didn't feel a strong desire to go through it all again. I'm from Illinois and it is my strong desire to work in Chicago after graduation. I was just wondering what current students felt about getting placed there. Judging from the info IUB gives out there was only like 15 grads placed in Chicago last year which seems pretty small considering the class is 200+. I would be looking for private practice but I don't need to be in a top 10 firm or anything that huge. I just don't know how good the OCI or even the opportunities are at IUB for Chicago and felt that the admissions office wouldn't be the best place to get unbiased information.

The Chicago Market is one of the tougher to break into right now. I don't have the exact stats but last years Summer associate numbers were about 1/3 of Pre-ITE. I've heard anecdotally that its getting better, but not by much and not that fast. So that being said, a Vault firm in chicago is going to take very good grades and probably ties. The reality is that OCI is expensive for the firms. the fee's and cost of having attorney's spend a day on campus are ridiculous. I think IU tried to get around this by having interviewing in Chicago, but even that was cancelled.

Many of the bigger Chicago firms are only recruiting at T14's, and for other its T14 + ND/WUSTL/UIUC and not IU/Iowa/Wisconsin etc. At least to the Vault firms in chicago there is a difference between ND/WUSTL/UIUC and the rest of the state midwest schools. I don't think IU's actual OCI list was ever posted on this thread, because its not public info, but I'll at least say there were not many Chicago firms. top 10% plus Law review and ties would have a shot with a very aggressive mass mail campaign.

For the non Vault firms, I have a lot less knowledge. Having ties to Illinois would be huge. Grades would be also necessary. Mass Mailing would also be required since not that many firms come to OCI. I would think targeting IU Alumni in Big firms, and having the grades to go along, would get a callback.

IP is a totally different ball game.

I know this sounds like a harsh post, but Its really just the reality of most schools right now.

Edit: I wanted to add that IU has done a really good job of giving enough of scholarship so students really don't have to go into Big law. Also the above would apply to OHio state, Wisconsin, Iowa and other similar schools as well.

[superflush]

The Chicago Market is one of the tougher to break into right now. I don't have the exact stats but last years Summer associate numbers were about 1/3 of Pre-ITE. I've heard anecdotally that its getting better, but not by much and not that fast. So that being said, a Vault firm in chicago is going to take very good grades and probably ties. The reality is that OCI is expensive for the firms. the fee's and cost of having attorney's spend a day on campus are ridiculous. I think IU tried to get around this by having interviewing in Chicago, but even that was cancelled.

fwiw, the Chicago OLR is scheduled for this fall (although I don't know much more about it). I know it didn't happen in '09 (not sure what happened in fall of '10).

[kings84_wr]

The Chicago Market is one of the tougher to break into right now. I don't have the exact stats but last years Summer associate numbers were about 1/3 of Pre-ITE. I've heard anecdotally that its getting better, but not by much and not that fast. So that being said, a Vault firm in chicago is going to take very good grades and probably ties. The reality is that OCI is expensive for the firms. the fee's and cost of having attorney's spend a day on campus are ridiculous. I think IU tried to get around this by having interviewing in Chicago, but even that was cancelled.

fwiw, the Chicago OLR is scheduled for this fall (although I don't know much more about it). I know it didn't happen in '09 (not sure what happened in fall of '10).

ya thats a good sign. I know a few hiring partners have been hinting at a pick up in hiring in the market. I know IU is trying to get new ways to attract employers. And bringing the Students to the firms is a great idea. There are a lot of almnus in CHicago at bigger firms that probably would like to hire IU grads.

OCI is a broken system. Its only practical for in market firms or firms that have large summer classes. its so costly for out of market or hard to get to areas. I wish I had the link, but firms have to pay the school a huge fee just to interview. Its based on the size of the firm and the amount of interview spots. Even callbacks are very costly for firms. If a student from out of market comes to the firm they have to pay for travel/hotel/food, plus the time attorney's spend interviewing. the firms basically cut out the schools like IU and hire more extensively from Northwestern and Chicago and it makes economical sense. really saves them thousands of dollars. OCI and the costs associated wit it, don't encourage firms to hire from IU.

[superflush]

I should also mention that there is an NLSC interviewing program in Chicago.
So, between OLR, NLSC, and the Loyola Patent Fair, there are opportunities in Chicago.

[daylightsavings]

The Chicago Market is one of the tougher to break into right now. I don't have the exact stats but last years Summer associate numbers were about 1/3 of Pre-ITE. I've heard anecdotally that its getting better, but not by much and not that fast. So that being said, a Vault firm in chicago is going to take very good grades and probably ties. The reality is that OCI is expensive for the firms. the fee's and cost of having attorney's spend a day on campus are ridiculous. I think IU tried to get around this by having interviewing in Chicago, but even that was cancelled.

fwiw, the Chicago OLR is scheduled for this fall (although I don't know much more about it). I know it didn't happen in '09 (not sure what happened in fall of '10).

ya thats a good sign. I know a few hiring partners have been hinting at a pick up in hiring in the market. I know IU is trying to get new ways to attract employers. And bringing the Students to the firms is a great idea. There are a lot of almnus in CHicago at bigger firms that probably would like to hire IU grads.

OCI is a broken system. Its only practical for in market firms or firms that have large summer classes. its so costly for out of market or hard to get to areas. I wish I had the link, but firms have to pay the school a huge fee just to interview. Its based on the size of the firm and the amount of interview spots. Even callbacks are very costly for firms. If a student from out of market comes to the firm they have to pay for travel/hotel/food, plus the time attorney's spend interviewing. the firms basically cut out the schools like IU and hire more extensively from Northwestern and Chicago and it makes economical sense. really saves them thousands of dollars. OCI and the costs associated wit it, don't encourage firms to hire from IU.

I appreciate the input and candor. I knew coming in that the odds aren't in my favor. I'm on the waitlist on the other schools you mentioned (UIUC, WashU, ND) so at this point I feel IUB is my best option. I know that this obviously isn't the most indicative source but the Vault Law School rankings have IUBat 14 which is clearly very strong, and with the consistency and improvement in the US News rankings do you think IUB will start getting more attention from Chicago firms? I know the scholly dollars have helped and obviously there are some other methods IUB is using to boost their US News ranking.

Also, I know that nearly every school OCI has dropped significantly so it doesn't shock me that IU is experiencing the same drop-off, I just hope it picks up in the next couple years when I'm actively looking for employment. I appreciate the insight into whats going on, I figured that the response out of the admissions office would be all positive and upbeat when the reality is obviously not the same. It helps to not go into school disillusioned with job placement.

[LogosEther]

Do you have connections in Chicago? No matter which school you end up attending, the #1 thing you want to do is start meeting lawyers and getting to know them.

I know quite a few 1Ls and 2Ls with very good summer gigs in Chicago. Still, many of these were obtained with good connections or good grades. Kings' info mostly applies. So going back to Chicago is definitely possible, but definitely not easy.

[daylightsavings]

Do you have connections in Chicago? No matter which school you end up attending, the #1 thing you want to do is start meeting lawyers and getting to know them.

I know quite a few 1Ls and 2Ls with very good summer gigs in Chicago. Still, many of these were obtained with good connections or good grades. Kings' info mostly applies. So going back to Chicago is definitely possible, but definitely not easy.

My better relationships are at smaller firms with 40 or so attorneys, not exactly vault firms. I also know a partner at Mayer Brown but I don't think he would do a ton to get me an internship because our families aren't that close. I understand the benefit of networking, but what would you suggest to develop relationships at some of these firms I don't know anyone at. Obviously I could use martindale and find some IUB grads at firms in Chicago and contact them. Just not sure if that's appropriate or would be welcomed by the alumni. I went to Boston University for UG so that doesn't really help me in the Chicago area.

Also to clarify, when you say good grades I understand obviously that top 10% is universally accepted as top notch, but would top 25% also be able to land some of those positions? Granted a lot of legwork put in to get noticed and such.

[LogosEther]

Got a long answer for you because I'm trying to procrastinate from studying. It's kind of awkward to cold-call people. In theory, I recommend it, but I don't do it.

What you can do is begin using our Legal Professions class. For the class, you're required to conduct informational interviews with practicing attorneys. Now I'm not saying I agree with this requirement, but it IS a great excuse to meet with attorneys. Instead of coming to them right when you're looking for a job, you schedule a meeting with them long before you'll be looking (pretty much now, for you). You schedule an Informational Interview. Tell the attorney you're required to do a bunch of em for class, at that it simply involves you learning about their work. People are much more willing to meet with you if they know it's for a class rather than to give you a job. You don't have to write stuff down - just have some questions pre-made and have a conversation.

You can use this "it's for a class" excuse with just about anyone. It would (probably) work with your Mayer Brown partner, for example. Are any of your friends' parents lawyers? Ask them. Do any of your friends have family friends who are lawyers? Ask them. I got my summer gig interview through a 3rd degree connection, so you can definitely use the "it's for a class" excuse for 2nd degree connections.

After I conducted my informational interviews, I made sure to keep in touch with the lawyers by sending them an e-mail every 4-or-so months and meeting them for coffee/lunch when I was in town. Plenty of them asked me to submit my resume for next summer, so come off friendly and responsible, and you may not even have to ask.

Lastly: a 40-lawyer firm in Chicago would probably be a great place to work. Jus' sayin'.

[kings84_wr]

I'd like to Echo everything Logos said. Developing contacts early is huge, I wish I did that more. Are they still doing the job shadow program? that could be another way to develop contacts. Alumni in particular really like to look out for new IU students.

Basically even at T14's you can't just rely on OCI anymore. Its amazing how many people don't mass mail, even after striking out at OCI. This is going to be huge for IU students looking for Chicago. Firms will give out interviews before Oci if they are interested. This is really helpful for students working in Chicago this summer, that way its cheaper for the firm and convenient for the student.

[superflush]

Are they still doing the job shadow program?

Yes, and you use it for one of your interviews for legal professions.

[gatorhoosier]

I'll second the job shadow option. I wish I did more than one.

[thmgoodw]

... I also know a partner at Mayer Brown but I don't think he would do a ton to get me an internship because our families aren't that close.

With large offices of large firms, the summer associate hiring is a pretty regimented process. That is, unless you are close friends with the managing partner or hiring partner, having a connection alone won't get someone a SA position. Knowing someone can certainly help get your resume get looked at.

It might go something like this:
You have a friend who is an associate at Sidley. He chats with you about Sidley, etc. He calls up the person handling summer associate recruiting (often a seniior associate...or an HR person), and tells him that he has knows of this law student who he thinks might be a good fit for Sidley. Then, that friend emails a copy of the resume, etc., to the internal recruiting person. Really, after that, there isn't much someone inside a big firm can do unless they have some serious pull. They can certainly help you navigate the interview process at the firm (if you get selected for an interview of course).

As for Mayer Brown in particular, I summered there during my 2nd summer and went there full-time after I graduated from IU. They didn't interview on campus when I was there, so i had to send in my resume/coverletter on my own. There was someone in the year after me (so class of 2003) that is at Mayer Brown now (lateraled into the Chicago office...and now is in the NYC office). Also, you might be surprised about BU undergrads. Some of these offices have 500+ attorneys, so you have a pretty wide ranging UG breakdown.

I understand the benefit of networking, but what would you suggest to develop relationships at some of these firms I don't know anyone at. Obviously I could use martindale and find some IUB grads at firms in Chicago and contact them. Just not sure if that's appropriate or would be welcomed by the alumni. I went to Boston University for UG so that doesn't really help me in the Chicago area.

I certainly think contacting alumni is certainly fair game. But, I wouldn't start until after you actually started school. One other way to look up alumni, is facebook If you find a couple people in a given alumni class on facebook, you can often piece together much of that class by simply looking at their friends. One firm to definitely look into is the Chicago office of Jones Day. They have pretty deep connections with IU (when I was at IU, the office hiring attorney was an IU law grad.. which resulted in a majority of their summer associates being IU grads).

Also to clarify, when you say good grades I understand obviously that top 10% is universally accepted as top notch, but would top 25% also be able to land some of those positions? Granted a lot of legwork put in to get noticed and such.

At the elite 5 or whatever Chicago firms typically you are talking about top 10%. In a better economy, it opened up after that to maybe top 20-25%, but these are different economic times. Keep in mind that this is getting the "1st" job. Lateraling standards usually (but not always) open up quite a bit.