Attention: Fordham Law Students Forum

[OperaSoprano]

If the options are between other markets and NYC doc review, I think many students would be open to working in other markets.

Do you think it's that bad? I know New York is hurting right now, but I don't really buy the belief that it will never recover. The banking industry is screwed, of course, but corporate law is not the only game in town.

I'm going to put a call in to Career Services tomorrow, schedule a phone app't, and ask them some questions. If anyone wants me to ask something specific, PM me.

Please tell us what you hear. You don't have to post it here, though. I would be curious to find out whether Fordham is doing more to court employers further afield. Dean Brown seemed pretty excited about all the active alumni spread out around the country. Perhaps the school really is making a push to place more students in other markets. If things are as bad as you think, this would be a reasonable response. I want to remain here, though, if I possibly can, and I can't be the only one.

[dante500]

I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

Pretty much. I'm still fairly perplexed about this whole thread and the general bone it has to pick with the one poster in here that actually attends Fordham and is giving his requested opinion. Bizarre.

[geoanthem]

I think people on TLS are kinda cautious to believe everything everyone says, especially when its a new poster. I am not saying he isn't a Fordham student or what he is saying is off base, just that with lack of any evidence its hard to take totally at face value.

Edit: That being said, I am asking my Fordham 1L friends about what touche said and I will relay it to people on this board. Better to be thorough in your research, I say.

[dante500]

I think people on TLS are kinda cautious to believe everything everyone says, especially when its a new poster. I am not saying he isn't a Fordham student or what he is saying is off base, just that with lack of any evidence its hard to take totally at face value.

For sure. Which is why I said in an early post to take it with a grain of salt, but to at least TAKE it. Considering that the new poster isn't really making any ludicrous claims and seems to be making sense, if I were a Fordham 0L I'd at least do some additional fact checking. I mean, that was kind of the point of the thread anyways, to stir up some fresh ideas for Fordham 0Ls. And BTW, if I had applied to, been accepted to, and was looking forward to attending Fordham, I wouldn't be scared off by any of this, since it all basically echoes the current market, but I'd at least want to be as informed as possible. Best of luck all Fordham 0Ls, as well as to the (possible) Fordham student putting forth their info.

[geoanthem]

I think people on TLS are kinda cautious to believe everything everyone says, especially when its a new poster. I am not saying he isn't a Fordham student or what he is saying is off base, just that with lack of any evidence its hard to take totally at face value.

For sure. Which is why I said in an early post to take it with a grain of salt, but to at least TAKE it. Considering that the new poster isn't really making any ludicrous claims and seems to be making sense, if I were a Fordham 0L I'd at least do some additional fact checking. I mean, that was kind of the point of the thread anyways, to stir up some fresh ideas for Fordham 0Ls. And BTW, if I had applied to, been accepted to, and was looking forward to attending Fordham, I wouldn't be scared off by any of this, since it all basically echoes the current market, but I'd at least want to be as informed as possible. Best of luck all Fordham 0Ls, as well as to the (possible) Fordham student putting forth their info.

You hit the nail on its head Dante. I am not deterred, but I like to look at things realistically. While I am not willing to take this information as truth yet, as I said in my edit I know a bunch of Fordham law students who I am asking about this to see what their answers are.

[Bankhead]

I feel like this thread is made up mostly of people just talking past each other rather than actually debating a topic

Pretty much. I'm still fairly perplexed about this whole thread and the general bone it has to pick with the one poster in here that actually attends Fordham and is giving his requested opinion. Bizarre.

Dante, the Fordham student explained that:

A) only 15% of people are likely to get biglaw offers next year.

B) next year's OCI list is will consist of under 100 employers

These are huge departures from what everyone has previously heard about the school. That is why people are a bit up in arms. People aren't saying that he's wrong, but rather are very surprised by the information given, and therefore are questioning it.

[dante500]

I think people on TLS are kinda cautious to believe everything everyone says, especially when its a new poster. I am not saying he isn't a Fordham student or what he is saying is off base, just that with lack of any evidence its hard to take totally at face value.

For sure. Which is why I said in an early post to take it with a grain of salt, but to at least TAKE it. Considering that the new poster isn't really making any ludicrous claims and seems to be making sense, if I were a Fordham 0L I'd at least do some additional fact checking. I mean, that was kind of the point of the thread anyways, to stir up some fresh ideas for Fordham 0Ls. And BTW, if I had applied to, been accepted to, and was looking forward to attending Fordham, I wouldn't be scared off by any of this, since it all basically echoes the current market, but I'd at least want to be as informed as possible. Best of luck all Fordham 0Ls, as well as to the (possible) Fordham student putting forth their info.

You hit the nail on its head Dante. I am not deterred, but I like to look at things realistically. While I am not willing to take this information as truth yet, as I said in my edit I know a bunch of Fordham law students who I am asking about this to see what their answers are.

And a bunch of 1Ls that you know at a school you're looking to attend is pretty much gold as far as info goes. It sucks for people like me who know no one at any law school anywhere on the planet. Makes this all a little more nerve racking.

[geoanthem]

I think people on TLS are kinda cautious to believe everything everyone says, especially when its a new poster. I am not saying he isn't a Fordham student or what he is saying is off base, just that with lack of any evidence its hard to take totally at face value.

For sure. Which is why I said in an early post to take it with a grain of salt, but to at least TAKE it. Considering that the new poster isn't really making any ludicrous claims and seems to be making sense, if I were a Fordham 0L I'd at least do some additional fact checking. I mean, that was kind of the point of the thread anyways, to stir up some fresh ideas for Fordham 0Ls. And BTW, if I had applied to, been accepted to, and was looking forward to attending Fordham, I wouldn't be scared off by any of this, since it all basically echoes the current market, but I'd at least want to be as informed as possible. Best of luck all Fordham 0Ls, as well as to the (possible) Fordham student putting forth their info.

You hit the nail on its head Dante. I am not deterred, but I like to look at things realistically. While I am not willing to take this information as truth yet, as I said in my edit I know a bunch of Fordham law students who I am asking about this to see what their answers are.

And a bunch of 1Ls that you know at a school you're looking to attend is pretty much gold as far as info goes. It sucks for people like me who know no one at any law school anywhere on the planet. Makes this all a little more nerve racking.

definitely. Though I did put questions to people through facebook and got some positive responses. So that could work. 2007 had 382 firms for oci so 100 firms next year would be a huge dive, almost 25% of that. Sounds a little chicken little to me.

[dante500]

[quote="geoanthem"][/quote]

Not that this is any more than speculation on my part, and wouldn't want anything I say to be misconstrued as anything more than that, but I personally wouldn't be surprised by it at all, given layoffs, this year's class that is having a hard time and the T14s etc who all pour into NYC. Again, I'm nobody who knows virtually nothing (I'm sure someone will quote that), but based on these factors it wouldn't strike me as way off. I'd also speculate, however, that if this WERE the case, I'm sure it would bump back up once we "stabilize." I also think that the market is probably going to look drastically different for current 0Ls when they are graduating, and I'm hoping drastically better. Again, just my own formulated opinion, so take it for what it's worth -- very little.

EDIT: Oh, more than 4 quotes, how I hate you!

[OperaSoprano]

Not that this is any more than speculation on my part, and wouldn't want anything I say to be misconstrued as anything more than that, but I personally wouldn't be surprised by it at all, given layoffs, this year's class that is having a hard time and the T14s etc who all pour into NYC. Again, I'm nobody who knows virtually nothing (I'm sure someone will quote that), but based on these factors it wouldn't strike me as way off. I'd also speculate, however, that if this WERE the case, I'm sure it would bump back up once we "stabilize." I also think that the market is probably going to look drastically different for current 0Ls when they are graduating, and I'm hoping drastically better. Again, just my own formulated opinion, so take it for what it's worth -- very little.

EDIT: Oh, more than 4 quotes, how I hate you!

Dante, this is very credited. I want to be informed, too. If the news is bad, I can handle it. I have no idea whether d-bag is as he says he is, but I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. If he is not a Fordham student, he's pretty knowledgeable about public interest offerings at the school. I am just surprised that he would choose this thread, of all places, to make his posting debut.

The class of 2009 is probably screwed, and I genuinely feel for them. I wish there was something any of us could do to fix the situation. All we can do is put in the effort, and hope things turn around by our 2L year.

[d-bag]

Not that this is any more than speculation on my part, and wouldn't want anything I say to be misconstrued as anything more than that, but I personally wouldn't be surprised by it at all, given layoffs, this year's class that is having a hard time and the T14s etc who all pour into NYC. Again, I'm nobody who knows virtually nothing (I'm sure someone will quote that), but based on these factors it wouldn't strike me as way off. I'd also speculate, however, that if this WERE the case, I'm sure it would bump back up once we "stabilize." I also think that the market is probably going to look drastically different for current 0Ls when they are graduating, and I'm hoping drastically better. Again, just my own formulated opinion, so take it for what it's worth -- very little.

EDIT: Oh, more than 4 quotes, how I hate you!

Dante, this is very credited. I want to be informed, too. If the news is bad, I can handle it. I have no idea whether d-bag is as he says he is, but I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. If he is not a Fordham student, he's pretty knowledgeable about public interest offerings at the school. I am just surprised that he would choose this thread, of all places, to make his posting debut.

The class of 2009 is probably screwed, and I genuinely feel for them. I wish there was something any of us could do to fix the situation. All we can do is put in the effort, and hope things turn around by our 2L year.

This isn't actually my posting debut; I've posted on TLS in the past under a different moniker. I just prefer to switch things up to keep my anonymity, since it allows me to speak frankly and keeps me Google-free if security clearance is in my future (federal work is my real interest, not firm work, but I have to pay my loans where LRAP won't cover federal work). Please note that I'm not advocating that people do NOT go to Fordham, but I am advocating that those who are BIGLAW-driven and are paying full ticket should temper their expectations. Waiting a year before deciding may be a better idea.

Oh, by the way, whoever said that I said that OCI was less than 100 employers: it's not. The discrepancy is that a lot of the employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus, but as far as I can tell without counting all the fields in this spreadsheet directly, there's more than 100 interviewing on campus. The issue is that there were 200 registered last year at around the same time. That's shenanigans.

Also, whoever mentioned Fordham trying to place more in other markets: this is the case. Dean Treanor, at a recent shindig, spoke out about his vision of turning Fordham from a regional school into a national school, and noted that more than 50% of the new class was out of the area. Depending on their placement choices, they're either self-selecting to go to NY, or they're choosing Fordham to practice on their home turf.

[silenziatori]

d-bag, is Fordham including its students in discussions about possible changes to the LRAP? I thought I read somewhere that students were involved in the most recent changes, which I believe were implemented in 2003.

I hope they'll be able to loosen the salary restrictions and cover government jobs. Understandably, this may not be feasible for them.

[d-bag]

d-bag, is Fordham including its students in discussions about possible changes to the LRAP? I thought I read somewhere that students were involved in the most recent changes, which I believe were implemented in 2003.

I hope they'll be able to loosen the salary restrictions and cover government jobs. Understandably, this may not be feasible for them.

Honestly, I've heard nothing about any of the changes. I'll try poking and prodding some people when I'm not so busy hustling for a fall internship. My guess is that given that they're in full force trying to get the new building going (they've got like 80 mil of the 100 they need), they're probably not going to spend as much on the student body. I'm not an expert, however, and Dean Treanor is a smart guy who should surely realize that he needs to recruit otherwise that building will be just as useless as Cooley's highly ranked library. I just don't see that Fordham in general is all that PI-driven, and even though Andrew and Tom at PIRC are both amazing individuals who only want the best for their students, they're limited by what the school has to offer them.

[OperaSoprano]

This isn't actually my posting debut; I've posted on TLS in the past under a different moniker. I just prefer to switch things up to keep my anonymity, since it allows me to speak frankly and keeps me Google-free if security clearance is in my future (federal work is my real interest, not firm work, but I have to pay my loans where LRAP won't cover federal work). Please note that I'm not advocating that people do NOT go to Fordham, but I am advocating that those who are BIGLAW-driven and are paying full ticket should temper their operations.

Oh, by the way, whoever said that I said that OCI was less than 100 employers: it's not. The discrepancy is that a lot of the employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus, but as far as I can tell without counting all the fields in this spreadsheet directly, there's more than 100 interviewing on campus. The issue is that there were 200 registered last year at around the same time. That's shenanigans.

Also, whoever mentioned Fordham trying to place more in other markets: this is the case. Dean Treanor, at a recent shindig, spoke out about his vision of turning Fordham from a regional school into a national school, and noted that more than 50% of the new class was out of the area. Depending on their placement choices, they're either self-selecting to go to NY, or they're choosing Fordham to practice on their home turf.

D-bag, I am unsurprised to hear that Fordham is looking to expand placement. It always surprised me that so few Fordham grads venture further afield. I had assumed self selection played a role, since Fordham obviously attracts students who love New York. I am one of them, by the way. I come by my infatuation honestly. Fordham was my first choice, and I took my waitlist to heart, because I knew I would have to leave the city I had grown to love so much (I was on hold at Cardozo too.) Two weeks ago, Cardozo admitted me with a very nice scholarship, and four days later, I got into Fordham, after 99 days on the waitlist.

Knowing my story, I hope you will forgive my passionate outburst. This acceptance meant the world to me. The day after I got in, I went up to the school to pay my seat deposit, and had a 45 minute conversation with Dean Brown in the admissions office. We talked about many things, but I got the sense that Fordham was definitely making a push for greater national recognition, and I was very happy to hear it. My family is in the Bay Area, and if I ever leave New York, this is likely where I will go. Dean Brown told me about active alumni in San Francisco and Palo Alto. In your opinion, is the school becoming more national? Do you see this as a feasible goal, especially if NYC is in for a slower recovery than hoped for?

Has the school been helpful to you in pursuing your non-biglaw career goals? You mentioned that you loved PIRC, and I hope I'll also spend a lot of time there. You also said you disliked many of the other students. Do you feel the competition changes people's personalities? This is the one aspect of law school I am not looking forward to. (Before I got into Fordham and Cardozo, I was all set to pay my seat deposit at Northeastern, if that tells you anything.) I want to bond with my classmates, not live in fear of them.

In your first post, you advised 0Ls to retake and go to NYU. I was a bit taken aback by your lack of enthusiasm for Fordham. Obviously anyone who can get into a T14 should go, but I had always thought Fordham was unique in the T30 because of the options it offered. When I got in, I called off my planned retake, even though it seemed likely that I would break 170 and have higher ranked options. I was happy, and grateful to have Fordham. I hope I made the right decision; I think another round of applications would have killed me. Given my GPA, Cornell would probably be my ceiling anyway.

I do want you to know that the people in this year's incoming class are amazing. I've gotten to know many of my fellow PT classmates-to-be, and all are friendly, helpful, and awesome people. Fordham will be in good hands when this class matriculates. I hope the school will take care of us as well.

[Blindmelon]

It makes sense Fordham would try to become more national given NY's fall. I wouldn't count on them becoming so, as their peer schools are also pushing to become more national. Both BU and WM are pushing grads into other states, and doing a pretty decent job. Both of these schools are less regional than Fordham based on stats, but still, it seems like becoming a more national school is a basic goal of schools in their range.

[neskerdoo]

This isn't actually my posting debut; I've posted on TLS in the past under a different moniker. I just prefer to switch things up to keep my anonymity, since it allows me to speak frankly and keeps me Google-free if security clearance is in my future (federal work is my real interest, not firm work, but I have to pay my loans where LRAP won't cover federal work). Please note that I'm not advocating that people do NOT go to Fordham, but I am advocating that those who are BIGLAW-driven and are paying full ticket should temper their operations.

Oh, by the way, whoever said that I said that OCI was less than 100 employers: it's not. The discrepancy is that a lot of the employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus, but as far as I can tell without counting all the fields in this spreadsheet directly, there's more than 100 interviewing on campus. The issue is that there were 200 registered last year at around the same time. That's shenanigans.

Also, whoever mentioned Fordham trying to place more in other markets: this is the case. Dean Treanor, at a recent shindig, spoke out about his vision of turning Fordham from a regional school into a national school, and noted that more than 50% of the new class was out of the area. Depending on their placement choices, they're either self-selecting to go to NY, or they're choosing Fordham to practice on their home turf.

D-bag, I am unsurprised to hear that Fordham is looking to expand placement. It always surprised me that so few Fordham grads venture further afield. I had assumed self selection played a role, since Fordham obviously attracts students who love New York. I am one of them, by the way. I come by my infatuation honestly. Fordham was my first choice, and I took my waitlist to heart, because I knew I would have to leave the city I had grown to love so much (I was on hold at Cardozo too.) Two weeks ago, Cardozo admitted me with a very nice scholarship, and four days later, I got into Fordham, after 99 days on the waitlist.

Knowing my story, I hope you will forgive my passionate outburst. This acceptance meant the world to me. The day after I got in, I went up to the school to pay my seat deposit, and had a 45 minute conversation with Dean Brown in the admissions office. We talked about many things, but I got the sense that Fordham was definitely making a push for greater national recognition, and I was very happy to hear it. My family is in the Bay Area, and if I ever leave New York, this is likely where I will go. Dean Brown told me about active alumni in San Francisco and Palo Alto. In your opinion, is the school becoming more national? Do you see this as a feasible goal, especially if NYC is in for a slower recovery than hoped for?

Has the school been helpful to you in pursuing your non-biglaw career goals? You mentioned that you loved PIRC, and I hope I'll also spend a lot of time there. You also said you disliked many of the other students. Do you feel the competition changes people's personalities? This is the one aspect of law school I am not looking forward to. (Before I got into Fordham and Cardozo, I was all set to pay my seat deposit at Northeastern, if that tells you anything.) I want to bond with my classmates, not live in fear of them.

In your first post, you advised 0Ls to retake and go to NYU. I was a bit taken aback by your lack of enthusiasm for Fordham. Obviously anyone who can get into a T14 should go, but I had always thought Fordham was unique in the T30 because of the options it offered. When I got in, I called off my planned retake, even though it seemed likely that I would break 170 and have higher ranked options. I was happy, and grateful to have Fordham. I hope I made the right decision; I think another round of applications would have killed me. Given my GPA, Cornell would probably be my ceiling anyway.

I do want you to know that the people in this year's incoming class are amazing. I've gotten to know many of my fellow PT classmates-to-be, and all are friendly, helpful, and awesome people. Fordham will be in good hands when this class matriculates. I hope the school will take care of us as well.

has awesomepossum read this yet?

[d-bag]

D-bag, I am unsurprised to hear that Fordham is looking to expand placement. It always surprised me that so few Fordham grads venture further afield. I had assumed self selection played a role, since Fordham obviously attracts students who love New York. I am one of them, by the way. I come by my infatuation honestly. Fordham was my first choice, and I took my waitlist to heart, because I knew I would have to leave the city I had grown to love so much (I was on hold at Cardozo too.) Two weeks ago, Cardozo admitted me with a very nice scholarship, and four days later, I got into Fordham, after 99 days on the waitlist.

You probably made the right choice given how Cardozo handles scholarship students--all of them go into the same section, thus becoming the "hard" section, and obviously given the requirements on the scholarships, the majority won't end up keeping theirs for next year. They're rough, although it's clear that Cardozo is a school that's going places.

Knowing my story, I hope you will forgive my passionate outburst. This acceptance meant the world to me. The day after I got in, I went up to the school to pay my seat deposit, and had a 45 minute conversation with Dean Brown in the admissions office. We talked about many things, but I got the sense that Fordham was definitely making a push for greater national recognition, and I was very happy to hear it. My family is in the Bay Area, and if I ever leave New York, this is likely where I will go. Dean Brown told me about active alumni in San Francisco and Palo Alto. In your opinion, is the school becoming more national? Do you see this as a feasible goal, especially if NYC is in for a slower recovery than hoped for?

I'm no expert on this, but I think it's a feasible goal in the long-term. One of Fordham's draws is for people who are out of state but want to practice in NY. Chances are that many of them aren't willing to remain in NY, especially after they burn out on BIGLAW, as many of them do. Anecdotally speaking, most of the Fordham alumni that I have met in the NY area, have originally been from the tri-state area.

Has the school been helpful to you in pursuing your non-biglaw career goals? You mentioned that you loved PIRC, and I hope I'll also spend a lot of time there. You also said you disliked many of the other students. Do you feel the competition changes people's personalities? This is the one aspect of law school I am not looking forward to. (Before I got into Fordham and Cardozo, I was all set to pay my seat deposit at Northeastern, if that tells you anything.) I want to bond with my classmates, not live in fear of them.

They're definitely helpful, but we still really have to self-initiate public interest job search if we want it, as opposed to those who seek BIGLAW. The only governmental employee I saw on the OCI list was NYC Law Department, and I don't even know how they snuck in. During Spring OCI, I believe we had US Attorney's Office and Army JAG interviewing 1Ls. I feel that competition definitely changes people's personalities, and you really often get to see the worst of people. The social life at Fordham is lacking, albeit there is some, as a result. On the other hand, the public interest driven folk are usually the nicest. I can't say anything bad about any Stein Scholar that I've met.

In your first post, you advised 0Ls to retake and go to NYU. I was a bit taken aback by your lack of enthusiasm for Fordham. Obviously anyone who can get into a T14 should go, but I had always thought Fordham was unique in the T30 because of the options it offered. When I got in, I called off my planned retake, even though it seemed likely that I would break 170 and have higher ranked options. I was happy, and grateful to have Fordham. I hope I made the right decision; I think another round of applications would have killed me. Given my GPA, Cornell would probably be my ceiling anyway.

You've already made your decision, there's no reason to second-guess it, just know what you're in for. I think those who are in still in position to retake, should, and in the alternative, just wait out the year. We're in uncertain times right now and it's a better idea to get a handle on things before deciding to make a $150k+ investment.

I do want you to know that the people in this year's incoming class are amazing. I've gotten to know many of my fellow PT classmates-to-be, and all are friendly, helpful, and awesome people. Fordham will be in good hands when this class matriculates. I hope the school will take care of us as well.

I find that people in PT are usually a bit different when compared to the FT gunners. You should try to find a part-time internship while in your PT year to ensure that you're getting experience and don't look bad to employers. From what I gather, doing PT without an employment reason raises eyebrows. You'll probably be hard pressed to find something of a truly legal nature, but I think places like the Innocence Project often need all the hands they can get on deck.

[awesomepossum]

This isn't actually my posting debut; I've posted on TLS in the past under a different moniker. I just prefer to switch things up to keep my anonymity, since it allows me to speak frankly and keeps me Google-free if security clearance is in my future (federal work is my real interest, not firm work, but I have to pay my loans where LRAP won't cover federal work). Please note that I'm not advocating that people do NOT go to Fordham, but I am advocating that those who are BIGLAW-driven and are paying full ticket should temper their operations.

Oh, by the way, whoever said that I said that OCI was less than 100 employers: it's not. The discrepancy is that a lot of the employers are opting to resume collect instead of interviewing on campus, but as far as I can tell without counting all the fields in this spreadsheet directly, there's more than 100 interviewing on campus. The issue is that there were 200 registered last year at around the same time. That's shenanigans.

Also, whoever mentioned Fordham trying to place more in other markets: this is the case. Dean Treanor, at a recent shindig, spoke out about his vision of turning Fordham from a regional school into a national school, and noted that more than 50% of the new class was out of the area. Depending on their placement choices, they're either self-selecting to go to NY, or they're choosing Fordham to practice on their home turf.

D-bag, I am unsurprised to hear that Fordham is looking to expand placement. It always surprised me that so few Fordham grads venture further afield. I had assumed self selection played a role, since Fordham obviously attracts students who love New York. I am one of them, by the way. I come by my infatuation honestly. Fordham was my first choice, and I took my waitlist to heart, because I knew I would have to leave the city I had grown to love so much (I was on hold at Cardozo too.) Two weeks ago, Cardozo admitted me with a very nice scholarship, and four days later, I got into Fordham, after 99 days on the waitlist.

Knowing my story, I hope you will forgive my passionate outburst. This acceptance meant the world to me. The day after I got in, I went up to the school to pay my seat deposit, and had a 45 minute conversation with Dean Brown in the admissions office. We talked about many things, but I got the sense that Fordham was definitely making a push for greater national recognition, and I was very happy to hear it. My family is in the Bay Area, and if I ever leave New York, this is likely where I will go. Dean Brown told me about active alumni in San Francisco and Palo Alto. In your opinion, is the school becoming more national? Do you see this as a feasible goal, especially if NYC is in for a slower recovery than hoped for?

Has the school been helpful to you in pursuing your non-biglaw career goals? You mentioned that you loved PIRC, and I hope I'll also spend a lot of time there. You also said you disliked many of the other students. Do you feel the competition changes people's personalities? This is the one aspect of law school I am not looking forward to. (Before I got into Fordham and Cardozo, I was all set to pay my seat deposit at Northeastern, if that tells you anything.) I want to bond with my classmates, not live in fear of them.

In your first post, you advised 0Ls to retake and go to NYU. I was a bit taken aback by your lack of enthusiasm for Fordham. Obviously anyone who can get into a T14 should go, but I had always thought Fordham was unique in the T30 because of the options it offered. When I got in, I called off my planned retake, even though it seemed likely that I would break 170 and have higher ranked options. I was happy, and grateful to have Fordham. I hope I made the right decision; I think another round of applications would have killed me. Given my GPA, Cornell would probably be my ceiling anyway.

I do want you to know that the people in this year's incoming class are amazing. I've gotten to know many of my fellow PT classmates-to-be, and all are friendly, helpful, and awesome people. Fordham will be in good hands when this class matriculates. I hope the school will take care of us as well.

has awesomepossum read this yet?

The problem with this kind of fanaticism is when the truth hits.

When I personally was looking at schools, current students at admitted students day (which OS never went to) having a lack of enthusiasm for their own school and saying that lots (most?) students were folks who had really been hoping for the other NY schools was the big killer for me.

Basing your whole idea of a school on what an admissions person tells you is like buying a used car after doing all your research with the used car salesman.

I appreciate OS's love for her school, but her kind of blind devotion is a formula for trouble. I love my school as much as anybody, but I'm not fooled into thinking everyone is so wonderful and that my school is destined to soar beyond what it is. Every school has its assholes and every school has its place. I don't think you can really appreciate a school unless you really understand reality.

What exactly does OS think makes Fordham so unique within the T30? The only thing I can think of is that it is the best school in NYC that offers a PT program.

I think compared to some of the alternatives, (Cardozo, BLS) Fordham is a great school. However, it is a school that seems more susceptible than most to economic swings. This is because it is a smaller fraction that makes it to the big law firms. It is really being in that position that gets hit hard when downturns come along.

I do think that overall, Fordham students DO seem quite bright. There are a lot of people there who went to some pretty good undergraduate schools. I know that Columbia and Cornell are big feeders for Fordham law. The school also seems to have some really nice clinical opportunities. The school overall has some really nice assets. It will also be interesting to see how things turn once the new building is happening. However, when you evaluate the school, you have to evaluate how it is right now.

[dresden doll]

No, I was never going to retake for kicks. My mom had wanted me to go through with my retake, but she will have to master her disappointment. I am happy with the way my cycle turned out, and will come to bar night, if I am free.

Though it is not my place to get involved and you certainly didn't request my opinion, I couldn't restrain myself from remarking that I really think choosing not to retake was a bad decision. You had nothing to lose and scholarship money, perhaps, to gain.

I'm sure you gave this move considerable thought but I really disagree with the decision nonetheless.

[geoanthem]

I chose not to quote you awesomepossume because it it would be way to long. But I agree with most of what you are saying. Fordham obviously isn't NYU or Columbia, but its still a very strong school with an exceptionally strong class. I am not concerned with the lack of enthusiasm you described (even though I didn't see it at all when I visited). I think this is a result from the fact that a lot of students who end up at Fordham are NYC or bust and are either right below the cut off for Columbia/NYU or never get in off the waitlist. For these type of people, attending Fordham might seem like settling initially and I completely understand that. But I also think that the fact that Fordham (and most NYC school for that matter, especially Cardozo) tend to attract a quality of students a cut above their rankings. I think this will help it withstand market turmoil somewhat.

From what I've seen, Fordham is very transparent in its employment information, even though I am interested in what Nitsudrx finds out in his meeting with career services today. I am probably one of the lucky ones who wants the option of Big Law but doesn't need it because I will be graduating with no debt. I am always grateful for this although I realize this type of decision is much harder for people who have to grapple with the idea of graduating with over a hundred thousand dollars of debt (even more because of NYC COS).

[OperaSoprano]

The problem with this kind of fanaticism is when the truth hits.

When I personally was looking at schools, current students at admitted students day (which OS never went to) having a lack of enthusiasm for their own school and saying that lots (most?) students were folks who had really been hoping for the other NY schools was the big killer for me.

Basing your whole idea of a school on what an admissions person tells you is like buying a used car after doing all your research with the used car salesman.

I appreciate OS's love for her school, but her kind of blind devotion is a formula for trouble. I love my school as much as anybody, but I'm not fooled into thinking everyone is so wonderful and that my school is destined to soar beyond what it is. Every school has its assholes and every school has its place. I don't think you can really appreciate a school unless you really understand reality.

What exactly does OS think makes Fordham so unique within the T30? The only thing I can think of is that it is the best school in NYC that offers a PT program.

I think compared to some of the alternatives, (Cardozo, BLS) Fordham is a great school. However, it is a school that seems more susceptible than most to economic swings. This is because it is a smaller fraction that makes it to the big law firms. It is really being in that position that gets hit hard when downturns come along.

I do think that overall, Fordham students DO seem quite bright. There are a lot of people there who went to some pretty good undergraduate schools. I know that Columbia and Cornell are big feeders for Fordham law. The school also seems to have some really nice clinical opportunities. The school overall has some really nice assets. It will also be interesting to see how things turn once the new building is happening. However, when you evaluate the school, you have to evaluate how it is right now.

As AP correctly states, I was not at ASD, because I was not admitted until May 1st. I considered asking if one of my admitted friends would bring me along as a guest, but concluded that the torment would be too great, and settled for the request of a detailed account of proceedings.

AP is incorrect, however, to conclude that I have not done outside research. I've talked to many current and former students, and I dated a Fordham Law grad (Class of '04) who is very successful now. He started in the PT program, as I will. We even had the same LSAT score. He opted for biglaw, and then set up his own practice. He is also a gifted painter, and pursues his art the way I pursue my singing. In any case, his obvious love for his alma mater was the beginning of mine. He told me, as you have, that not all students were happy to be there. The school was, and still is, seen as a fallback for people who can't get into NYU or Columbia. If I had T14 numbers, I wouldn't be too thrilled to be attending Fordham either. I'd want to be at a T14. I think anyone would. This doesn't mean Fordham is a horrible place; it means Fordham is #30 and not #4, with everything else that entails about placement strength relative to the two titans (and self-selecting students from the rest of the T14.)

So yes, that is the reality of the school's position, which of course I recognize. I am still excited about the school's PR offerings (Stein Scholars, ADR, etc), and of course, the fact that it has a PT program, which suits my needs perfectly. I feel that enthusiasm and optimism go a long way toward improving any situation, especially one as inherently stressful as attending law school during a protracted recession. (I never disputed d-bag's employment numbers, btw. I am a 0L, and can only rely on published statistics and anecdotes from current students, which obviously must be evaluated with care.)

I am thrilled to be a Fordham 0L. Fordham is the best school I got into, and it was seriously more than I merited. I do believe it offers better opportunities than similarly ranked schools, even if only by virtue of its Manhattan location. I'm not blind, and I know what the competition looks like (and there is a lot of it.) I know the market is in the shitter right now. I simply refuse to share in the cynicism that the internet produces in such abundance. It's a choice that has served me well in life. If I wind up on JDU, I'll acknowledge that I was wrong.

Peace,
OS

[Bankhead]

Well, I called Career Services and the rep said "Unfortunately, we don't answer admitted students questions." Is this normal, or Brooklyn-esque?

[awesomepossum]

I don't know. There is a rule that 1Ls can't talk to career services until something like November.

On the other hand, I think career services (at a variety of schools) do talk to admitted students because they give talks at admitted students weekends. I've also run into career services people while on and giving tours and they've usually said things.

[OperaSoprano]

No, I was never going to retake for kicks. My mom had wanted me to go through with my retake, but she will have to master her disappointment. I am happy with the way my cycle turned out, and will come to bar night, if I am free.

Though it is not my place to get involved and you certainly didn't request my opinion, I couldn't restrain myself from remarking that I really think choosing not to retake was a bad decision. You had nothing to lose and scholarship money, perhaps, to gain.

I'm sure you gave this move considerable thought but I really disagree with the decision nonetheless.

Dresden, I would not have called off my retake if I could have gotten money from Fordham. I asked, and was told that the money would be exhausted by the time my score was reported. If I went through with it anyway, and raised my score considerably, I would be in a bind. Here is my reasoning:

I do not have a high LSDAS GPA. I earned a 3.63 at FIT, but LSAC turned this number into 3.37. Hence, a splitter's chance is all I would ever have at cracking the T14. Unless I hit 175+, Columbia and NYU would be very unlikely to want me. Cornell and GULC would be within the realm of possibility with a 170-174, but certainly not guaranteed. My GPA also makes UCLA impossible. What schools would be left that would fit me well? BU/BC/Emory, and maybe Vandy if I got lucky. If I failed to climb the rankings, it is unlikely that Fordham would admit me again after what happened this year.

(I want to live on the East Coast or CA, hence the lack of certain other schools that could go on this list.)

If I thought Cornell was a guarantee, I'd be very tempted to try. Cleareyes recognized this and teases me about it, incidentally. However, this cycle took a huge toll on me, emotionally and physically. I don't know that I could do it again, even for Yale.

I am happy to be a Fordham student. I think I can do well there. I value your opinion very much, so I hope you understand the difficult choice I had to make. I believe I could hit 170, and I really was nearly there.

[OperaSoprano]

Well, I called Career Services and the rep said "Unfortunately, we don't answer admitted students questions." Is this normal, or Brooklyn-esque?

Are you serious? I thought the November rule did not apply until matriculation. I don't think this is necessarily a Brooklyn-style dodge, but I'm not thrilled about it either.

EDIT: How did the person on the phone react? Was this answer apologetic or defensive?