William Mitchell Graduate, taking questions. Forum

[Joe Biden]

PI for example, entitles you to 33-40% of your clients recovery...doesn't take that much to get this type of practice off the ground.

Is this a joke?

Not sure what is so funny about this? You've been bashing Mitchell left and right, yet at the same time you admit you have no experience or knowledge of the Minneapolis market. I was simply pointing out that if you've got the gumption to start a practice, you can find viable and meaningful ways to earn an income. You can belittle PI work if you want, that's fine; but there is a reason you take torts first year, people get hurt and they need effective advocates. However, based on your demeanor PI work is clearly beneath you...probably a good thing...I gather the victims of the 35W bridge collapse deserve better than you anyways. In any case, you've expressed your concerns that OL's are taking erroneous advice, yet have been constantly offering your own advice about a market/school you know nothing about. I understand your desire to express your opinion regarding attending the "highest" ranked school...really I do. I don't mean to offend you, but I propose you offer some sincere questions about Mitchell, as that was the original poster's intention.

We take Torts first year so we can defend business against TTTT ambulance chasers. If you are honestly telling people the advantage of getting a law degree is chasing ambulance you need more help than I can offer. Everyone on this forum knows what a joke your proposition is, so you can attempt to defend yourself all you want, but in reality you are merely belittling yourself.

[Joe Biden]

I'd like to address JD33's point about William Mitchell's U.S. News Ranking. The whole Tier 4 thing is pure ridiculousness. Someone's employed the methodology without the reputation scores (40% of the raw overall score) and WM ends up being a high Tier 3. I'll find that link and post it later.

But even further, WM is really reluctant to "game" the rankings like other schools do. By this, I mean that they're not going to create jobs for unemployed graduates in the law school library so they can report 100% employment rates nine months after graduation (although WM's performance on this criterion is pretty good, normally in the 90th percentile and up).

They also appear to have a high student to faculty ratio (24:1 is the number people keep throwing out there) because there are only forty-nine FT profs and something like 300 adjunct faculty. U.S. News stops counting adjunct faculty toward the student:faculty ratio after a certain number, way below 300. With just over a thousand students, it gives the appearance that the school is overrun and no one ever gets any personal attention. That couldn't be further from the truth. I never had any problems doing walk-ins with profs and they were always easily accessible.

The other problem with the Tier 4 ranking--and it's an admittedly subjectone one--is that it just doesn't accurately reflect WM's reputation. Here's one example: in the thirty-year period from 1980 to 2010, there will have been six CJs of the Minnesota Supreme Court. Three of them graduated from WM, two from the U of M, and one from YLS. If we looked at any other state high court, would you find another "Tier 4" school with similar numbers? I tend to doubt it. Would you find another "Tier 4" law school with grads placed in the same position as a T-25 and a T-2 law school? Possibly, but it seems like a long-shot. If someone wants to dig up the actual numbers, be my guest, but I think my point is a valid one: WM doesn't get as much respect as it deserves.

I bring all these things up because I believe that WM is a Top 100 law school, somewhere in the 85-100 range. Under the current ranking regime, it's just a matter of the school taking additional steps to reflect that reality.

No legitimate law school puts students to work in the library to "game" the rankings. Every T1 or T2 law school I know of has a very prestigious law library staff. First of all, no law library has a large enough staff to "game" the numbers. Secondly, most law library staff I know are very accomplished academically, i.e. they graduated with honors from a very reputable law school. If a law school graduates 200 students every year, and the law library has five full time attorneys on staff and most of the staff have had their jobs for 5-10+ years, how does that manipulate any employment statistic?

40% of William Mitchell students are part-time, which is an incredibly high number. If there was a place to "game" the rankings, before USNews changed its part-time methodology this year, the part-time program was it.

For what it is worth, this student seems to think that schools do in fact hire recent grads to fudge their numbers:

--LinkRemoved--

There is no proof that anything in that link is true. It was supposedly the work of a "hacker." Come on, show a legitimate source.

[Joe Biden]

The William Mitchell curve is 2.67. While William Mitchell only recommends a curve, the deans will "sit down" with any professor who has grades that are "out of whack," before the grades are formally submitted.

From what I understand, starting this year, professors must grade on a curve.

I would strongly advice any prospective scholarship student to take a hard look at what their scholarship GPA requirement is and figure out if it is reasonable. If you are unable to pay full sticker, or don't want that kind of debt, William Mitchell may not be for you. William Mitchell graduates students with the kind of debt where you need to work BigLaw to make your loan payments. Unfortunately, for grads, only a very small percentage of grads will have that option available.

I have looked into scholarship retention at Mitchell and I'm satisfied with the school's numbers. 80% of merit scholarship recipients keep their scholarships after their first year. Of the 20% that don't, 80% get their grades back up so that by their third year they have their scholarship back.

Quit hating.

I want to see your source for this stat, because I absolutely do not believe it. Those numbers do not add up.

Slightly over 50% of William Mitchell students get some kind of scholarship. It should be noted that this number is pretty low. If the curve is a 2.67 and students are required to maintain a 2.7 to keep their scholarships, that means that if every scholarship student does better than every non scholarship student, which I absolutely do not believe, some scholarship students are still losing their scholarship money. If your numbers are correct, that means no one without a scholarship should attend William Mitchell because they have no chance of being toward the top of the class. Furthermore, if one section has more scholarship students than not, which will happen if there is a random distribution of students into sections, there is no way that many scholarship students are retaining their scholarships.

I go to a T2 with one of the better T2 placements; BigLaw is actually a realistic possibility. I would not go to any T2 for 30k+/year. In fact, there are very few T1s I would go to for 30k+/year. Hell, 15k/year isn't worth the investment at a T2, which is why I went where I had a scholarship and grant that brought my tuition to under 10k/year. Anyone who is shelling out 15k+ for a TTT or TTTT is insane, which almost everyone at William Mitchell is doing since less than 3% of students receive scholarships of 50%+.

Joe-
Your numbers are totally wrong. 34% of full time students receive some type of scholarship from Mitchell, not 50%. (http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchRes ... BA6942.pdf)

I got my numbers about scholarship retention from an admissions official at Mitchell. I suppose they could be lying to me but I just don't think they're that evil. In order for me to keep my 85% scholarship at Mitchell, all I need to do is stay in the top half of the class. I’ve done a bit of poking around, and feel confident that I can do so.

I think you are right that 0Ls should be careful in attending Mitchell, or any law school. Still, given your lack of knowledge of the mn legal market and Mitchell, you are not qualified to attack the school’s reputation.

Again, quit hating.

Reputation = TTT. Keep defending it, the rest of us know better.

I am done engaging in this debate. The USNews numbers show 50% of students receiving scholarship aid. Defend William Mitchell all you want, but it is not a TTT, it is lucky it is not a TTTT anymore and all of the regular posters on this site are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions. Good luck in your TTT endeavors.

[Joe Biden]

As we saw above, it's not the norm at all. These T6 grads with bristling resumes aren't exactly overrunning all the top 100 schools. So If I went to a school whose faculty was completely stuffed with these kinds of people, I'd feel pretty fortunate.

Yes, they are. Ask one of your professors, or anyone who attends a real law school. T6 professors are the norm.

It is important to note that most HYS grads would generally be critical of their law school in some regard. Heck, most students at my law school would be critical in some regard. You guys are defending William Mitchell like you are the Dean of Admissions. I either:

a) Question your intelligence.

b) Question your motives.

[JurisDoctor33]

PI for example, entitles you to 33-40% of your clients recovery...doesn't take that much to get this type of practice off the ground.

Is this a joke?

Not sure what is so funny about this? You've been bashing Mitchell left and right, yet at the same time you admit you have no experience or knowledge of the Minneapolis market. I was simply pointing out that if you've got the gumption to start a practice, you can find viable and meaningful ways to earn an income. You can belittle PI work if you want, that's fine; but there is a reason you take torts first year, people get hurt and they need effective advocates. However, based on your demeanor PI work is clearly beneath you...probably a good thing...I gather the victims of the 35W bridge collapse deserve better than you anyways. In any case, you've expressed your concerns that OL's are taking erroneous advice, yet have been constantly offering your own advice about a market/school you know nothing about. I understand your desire to express your opinion regarding attending the "highest" ranked school...really I do. I don't mean to offend you, but I propose you offer some sincere questions about Mitchell, as that was the original poster's intention.

We take Torts first year so we can defend business against TTTT ambulance chasers. If you are honestly telling people the advantage of getting a law degree is chasing ambulance you need more help than I can offer. Everyone on this forum knows what a joke your proposition is, so you can attempt to defend yourself all you want, but in reality you are merely belittling yourself.

I never said the advantage to getting a law degree is chasing ambulances; I said that there are viable and meaningful ways to earn a living practicing law, other than biglaw. You seem to be pretty high on yourself...do you even work in biglaw??? And for what it is worth, the people that defend tort claims against businesses work for insurance defense mills, not traditional "corporate" biglaw firms. If you aspire to work in one of these shops, more power to you! Good luck in your tier 2 endeavors!

[Joe Biden]

I never said the advantage to getting a law degree is chasing ambulances; I said that there are viable and meaningful ways to earn a living practicing law, other than biglaw. You seem to be pretty high on yourself...do you even work in biglaw??? And for what it is worth, the people that defend tort claims against businesses work for insurance defense mills, not traditional "corporate" biglaw firms. If you aspire to work in one of these shops, more power to you! Good luck in your tier 2 endeavors!

I was going to say some mean things back, but I decided against it. I will simply say that every firm from Watchell down the BigLaw list has a percentage of practice dedicated to Tort litigation.

I am done with this thread. If you guys want to think William Mitchell is worth 30k+, or that it should be a T1-T2 school, fine. I have pointed out the factual misrepresentations made in this thread. Future law students can do their own homework and figure out the truth for themselves.

[JurisDoctor33]

I never said the advantage to getting a law degree is chasing ambulances; I said that there are viable and meaningful ways to earn a living practicing law, other than biglaw. You seem to be pretty high on yourself...do you even work in biglaw??? And for what it is worth, the people that defend tort claims against businesses work for insurance defense mills, not traditional "corporate" biglaw firms. If you aspire to work in one of these shops, more power to you! Good luck in your tier 2 endeavors!

I was going to say some mean things back, but I decided against it. I will simply say that every firm from Watchell down the BigLaw list has a percentage of practice dedicated to Tort litigation.

I am done with this thread. If you guys want to think William Mitchell is worth 30k+, or that it should be a T1-T2 school, fine. I have pointed out the factual misrepresentations made in this thread. Future law students can do their own homework and figure out the truth for themselves.

Fair enough. I agree with you that attending a t3 does have several potential limitations: I was lucky enough to have known about these challenges when I started two years ago, I addressed them first year, and I am fortunate enough to have a job offer at one of the local biglaw firms(150+ attorneys). My personal circumstances made Mitchell one of the only viable options for me; it is with this background that I vigorously defend the school. I simply want people to know that if they choose to go to Mitchell, they can get very good jobs if they put in the necessary hard work. Despite Mitchell's numbers, which have been debated ad nauseam, the school places very well locally; several posters with no connection to Mitchell have already attested to this. I apologize for being so condescending in my previous posts, and I really do wish you success in the future.

[MSP1]

As we saw above, it's not the norm at all. These T6 grads with bristling resumes aren't exactly overrunning all the top 100 schools. So If I went to a school whose faculty was completely stuffed with these kinds of people, I'd feel pretty fortunate.

Yes, they are. Ask one of your professors, or anyone who attends a real law school. T6 professors are the norm.

It is important to note that most HYS grads would generally be critical of their law school in some regard. Heck, most students at my law school would be critical in some regard. You guys are defending William Mitchell like you are the Dean of Admissions. I either:

a) Question your intelligence.

b) Question your motives.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this for you. I just displayed the full-time faculty stats for Maine and Gonzaga, two top 100 law schools, neither of which have a majority of professors who graduated from T6 schools. Maine has seven of twenty-five and Gonzaga has four of thirty-nine. Hell, look further up the rankings and it's still not "the norm." Iowa, #26 in USNWR, has eighteen full-time faculty members that graduated from T6 schools and thirty-one that didn't. (Then again, can we objectively define "the norm?" Is it 90%? 75%? 66%? 50%?) Now I don't make any judgments on the quality of schooling at these institutions based upon those numbers. I simply want to underscore the fact that your claim is at best a gross generalization and at worst inaccurate, unless you don't think these three count as "real law schools."

I defend William Mitchell to those who, like yourself, analogize its graduates to garbage men and construction workers. My intelligence is adequate, thank you very much, and my motives are genuine. I simply offer information to those who request it.

So if you have a tier two legal education, Joe, why don't you show it by engaging in a nuanced discussion rather than calling me a liar and storming off in a huff when others challenge your assertions.

[tjperry]

I've put down a $500 seat deposit and Hamline (half tuition scholarship) and William Mitchell just came back to me with a 45% tuition scholarship. Just eat the 500 and head to Billy Mitch ? From what I've seen thus far that would be by far the most intelligent thing to do. I need to stay in the top half to keep my scholarship...if the median is really 2.7 or w/e was mentioned earlier than that would be easier than the 2.9 I'd be required to maintain at Hamline. Advice please?

[JurisDoctor33]

I've put down a $500 seat deposit and Hamline (half tuition scholarship) and William Mitchell just came back to me with a 45% tuition scholarship. Just eat the 500 and head to Billy Mitch ? From what I've seen thus far that would be by far the most intelligent thing to do. I need to stay in the top half to keep my scholarship...if the median is really 2.7 or w/e was mentioned earlier than that would be easier than the 2.9 I'd be required to maintain at Hamline. Advice please?

Congrats on the scholarship from Mitchell! All of the first year courses are graded on a mandatory 2.72 curve with a deviation of .08-.12 allowed depending on the size of your section. If you prepare for all of your classes, read "Getting to Maybe", and take practice tests during your first year, you will have no problem finishing above 2.7...really, no problem at all.

[tjperry]

already bought "getting to maybe" and have started reading it... my stats don't really represent my true ability... i didn't take my undergrad seriously and studied for literally 3 hours for the lsat (i was working 50 hours a week when you factor in my internship and attending school full-time)...3.34 gpa 156 lsat... i should be able to stay upper 50% you think? i plan on not working and cracking down on my studies, now that my grades will actually have a significant impact on the rest of my life...

[tjperry]

I've put down a $500 seat deposit and Hamline (half tuition scholarship) and William Mitchell just came back to me with a 45% tuition scholarship. Just eat the 500 and head to Billy Mitch ? From what I've seen thus far that would be by far the most intelligent thing to do. I need to stay in the top half to keep my scholarship...if the median is really 2.7 or w/e was mentioned earlier than that would be easier than the 2.9 I'd be required to maintain at Hamline. Advice please?

Congrats on the scholarship from Mitchell! All of the first year courses are graded on a mandatory 2.72 curve with a deviation of .08-.12 allowed depending on the size of your section. If you prepare for all of your classes, read "Getting to Maybe", and take practice tests during your first year, you will have no problem finishing above 2.7...really, no problem at all.

What exactly do you mean by deviation of .08 - .12 ?

[MSP1]

I've put down a $500 seat deposit and Hamline (half tuition scholarship) and William Mitchell just came back to me with a 45% tuition scholarship. Just eat the 500 and head to Billy Mitch ? From what I've seen thus far that would be by far the most intelligent thing to do. I need to stay in the top half to keep my scholarship...if the median is really 2.7 or w/e was mentioned earlier than that would be easier than the 2.9 I'd be required to maintain at Hamline. Advice please?

Go to William Mitchell.

[MSP1]

I've put down a $500 seat deposit and Hamline (half tuition scholarship) and William Mitchell just came back to me with a 45% tuition scholarship. Just eat the 500 and head to Billy Mitch ? From what I've seen thus far that would be by far the most intelligent thing to do. I need to stay in the top half to keep my scholarship...if the median is really 2.7 or w/e was mentioned earlier than that would be easier than the 2.9 I'd be required to maintain at Hamline. Advice please?

Congrats on the scholarship from Mitchell! All of the first year courses are graded on a mandatory 2.72 curve with a deviation of .08-.12 allowed depending on the size of your section. If you prepare for all of your classes, read "Getting to Maybe", and take practice tests during your first year, you will have no problem finishing above 2.7...really, no problem at all.

What exactly do you mean by deviation of .08 - .12 ?

It means that those professors could curve the class with a median of anywhere from 2.6 to 2.84. Outside those boundaries and they'd have to sit down with administration to "reevaluate" the numbers.

And again, let me state for the record that I believe the policy is a mistake. Those numbers are abysmally low for the median, especially in comparison to other law schools. It does the students no favors.

[tjperry]

Well I've put down a seat deposit and am 100% certain that I will be attending William Mitchell on a near half scholarship this fall. Did I make a mistake? Will I be living under a bridge following graduation? Or am I on the right track? Any well-thought out input would be appreciated. I'm still a bit worried about putting up nearly 17g a year plus living expenses for a tier 3 school...but Billy Mitch has a pretty impressive track record, and doesn't appear to be fading away any time soon.

[mgoblue2008]

Seems like a good choice if you want to practice in the twin cities. Or you can always do well your first year and transfer to the University of Minnesota. My cousin went that route and has been very successful (biglaw in mnpls).

[MSP1]

Seems like a good choice if you want to practice in the twin cities. Or you can always do well your first year and transfer to the University of Minnesota. My cousin went that route and has been very successful (biglaw in mnpls).

There's some truth to this, but if you do well enough at Mitchell to transfer to the U of M, you can get a BigLaw job in Minneapolis anyway. Transferring can be a pain in the ass and it's not a high percentage move.

[WallyGator12000]

Just found this board, solid work on providing the real perspective on MItchell. Dean Janus said it best when asked by a student recently...the student started a question with, "most everyone knows that MItchell is considered the second best law school in the twin cities..." Janus cut him off and said, "or the best." The truth is far too many T1 and T2 students have no perspective on the regional power of a T3, and don't seem to have the mental capacity to look beyond the rankings (whose methodology is so skewed and flawed they really aren't worth much at all). Mitchell's alum network in the Twin Cities, and regionally, is extremely strong, and lawyers from Big Law here will tell you the same thing.

Anyway, I do have another question for you MSP1...I just finished my 1L here at Mitchell, and I should have around a 3.45, don't know about Law Review yet (write-on competition is due this Tues). What are my chances looking like for OCI? Any idea where a 3.45 would place percentage-wise? I am thinking it should crack top 10%, but I'm not sure.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated, and once again, thanks for advancing strong, reasonable arguments for why Mitchell is a solid choice for a legal education.

[MSP1]

Just found this board, solid work on providing the real perspective on MItchell. Dean Janus said it best when asked by a student recently...the student started a question with, "most everyone knows that MItchell is considered the second best law school in the twin cities..." Janus cut him off and said, "or the best." The truth is far too many T1 and T2 students have no perspective on the regional power of a T3, and don't seem to have the mental capacity to look beyond the rankings (whose methodology is so skewed and flawed they really aren't worth much at all). Mitchell's alum network in the Twin Cities, and regionally, is extremely strong, and lawyers from Big Law here will tell you the same thing.

Anyway, I do have another question for you MSP1...I just finished my 1L here at Mitchell, and I should have around a 3.45, don't know about Law Review yet (write-on competition is due this Tues). What are my chances looking like for OCI? Any idea where a 3.45 would place percentage-wise? I am thinking it should crack top 10%, but I'm not sure.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated, and once again, thanks for advancing strong, reasonable arguments for why Mitchell is a solid choice for a legal education.

WG, thanks for the compliment.

In any event, judging solely from your GPA, I think your OCI chances are good. However, keep two things in mind:

(1) Neither you nor I can be certain of your other classmates' marks in comparison to yours.
(2) I have a "pre-law firm meltdown" perspective on OCI; with firms now shedding real employees, their requirements for SAs may have become more stringent.

But don't let that deter you. Apply to as many firms as you'd like and good luck.

[waitingsux]

Any thoughts on living close to campus? My roommates and I are looking at places in south Minneapolis, but I'm starting to wonder if I'd rather position myself in St.Paul, closer to Mitchell.

[MSP1]

Living in Minneapolis and commuting to St. Paul would be fine, but here are some things to consider. Getting from, say, Hennepin/Lyndale to Lexington Parkway on I-94 (and vice versa) will take about thirty-five to forty minutes in rush hour traffic. That may or may not be a problem for you, depending upon whether you drive or take the bus, or whether your class schedule requires you to be on the road between 7-9 a.m. and 4-6 p.m.

On the other hand, the Summit/Grand Avenues area of St. Paul are rife with rental properties, so I feel fairly confident that you and your roommates could find something. That way, you could pretty much walk to class.

Now I lived across the freeway in Como Park during law school, but my commute was a straight shot up Lexington. It only took ten minutes to get there. I guess what I'm saying is that you have a lot of options. Don't feel like you have to live in Minneapolis.

[waitingsux]

Looks like I'm staying in Minneapolis. I'm not looking forward the commute, but the roommates were not interested at all in moving to St.Paul. Hopefully it will be a healthy thing to have a little distance between school and my personal life.

[tvink]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

[Joe Biden]

Thanks for the informative topic concerning WM Law. I just graduated from UMD with a GPA of 3.7 and got an LSAT score of 153, which I feel I could improve upon with better preparation. Right now I am looking at WM as my main option, but was late in applying to schools and would have to go there without scholarship aid. I am also on the waitlist for Wisconsin, but am not very confident I will get off of that. I guess, my main question would be whether or not you think it would be worth going to WM while having to repay the tuition entirely after graduation. Or, would it be a better option to try to improve upon my LSAT score and apply again for admission next year? I see this is an older thread, but I appreciate any feedback in advance.

PowerScore bibles.

[Joe Biden]

As we saw above, it's not the norm at all. These T6 grads with bristling resumes aren't exactly overrunning all the top 100 schools. So If I went to a school whose faculty was completely stuffed with these kinds of people, I'd feel pretty fortunate.

Yes, they are. Ask one of your professors, or anyone who attends a real law school. T6 professors are the norm.

It is important to note that most HYS grads would generally be critical of their law school in some regard. Heck, most students at my law school would be critical in some regard. You guys are defending William Mitchell like you are the Dean of Admissions. I either:

a) Question your intelligence.

b) Question your motives.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this for you. I just displayed the full-time faculty stats for Maine and Gonzaga, two top 100 law schools, neither of which have a majority of professors who graduated from T6 schools. Maine has seven of twenty-five and Gonzaga has four of thirty-nine. Hell, look further up the rankings and it's still not "the norm." Iowa, #26 in USNWR, has eighteen full-time faculty members that graduated from T6 schools and thirty-one that didn't. (Then again, can we objectively define "the norm?" Is it 90%? 75%? 66%? 50%?) Now I don't make any judgments on the quality of schooling at these institutions based upon those numbers. I simply want to underscore the fact that your claim is at best a gross generalization and at worst inaccurate, unless you don't think these three count as "real law schools."

I defend William Mitchell to those who, like yourself, analogize its graduates to garbage men and construction workers. My intelligence is adequate, thank you very much, and my motives are genuine. I simply offer information to those who request it.

So if you have a tier two legal education, Joe, why don't you show it by engaging in a nuanced discussion rather than calling me a liar and storming off in a huff when others challenge your assertions.

You would have been better off going to Vegas and playing craps than attending WM.