Wake Law Students taking Questions!!! Forum

[tstyler98]

For 2L OCI, I didn't fair so well but that might have been because I only applied to 2 places. I was a smidge below 20% after the Spring semester, on Law Review, and have several years work experience in a different field, but neither of the firms I applied to even gave me an interview. While I think OCI plays a part in everyone's application process, it shouldn't be your only avenue. In the end, I'm fine with it not working out because I really didn't want to do big law anyway. But it would've been nice to have something squared away so early, especially since I'm still looking. But a lot of that might come from the parameters I'm placing on my search (applying to firms who do certain types of law and are only in NC, particularly those near Winston).

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

A few things:

70 firms is way, way too high for 2L OCI. It's entirely possible that there were 70 slots to apply for, but many of those were for different offices of the same firm (i.e. K&L Gates conducted separate interviews for their Charlotte, Raleigh, and DC offices- 3 slots to bid on, 1 firm). I also remember doing a count and I believe that there were somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-35 NALP firms that came in the fall. Non-NALP firms probably numbered around 15-20.

The only way you get to 70 is if you also count all of the off-campus interview events (Texas Interview Program, New England Interview Program, etc.). This would be disingenuous.

As Pirate Cap'n said, most of the interview slots (especially early on, which is when the bulk of the NALP firms show up) go to the top 20%. There are exceptions like Mo who snagged a decent number of slots (and offers) outside that range, but he has also stated that he's on law review and has other factors in his favor.

The oversimplified breakdown of how OCI panned out this year-

Top 10%- You'll get all the interviews you want and will land at least one offer unless you're a social pariah. Still prepare like hell for interviews and stuff, but this is a great spot to be in.

Top 20%- More dicey. You'll still get a ton of screeners at OCI, but probably far fewer callbacks than the top 10% ppl. My guess is that maybe three-fifths of the people in this range received firm offers. Many of them were from mid-sized and non-NALP firms. Being IP or minority in this range upgrades you to baller status.

Top 20-30%- Unless you write on to law review and/or have significant and impressive work experience, you've got a really tough fight ahead of you in terms of OCI. You'll get scattered interviews here and there, but you better ace the hell out of your screeners because they're probably interviewing at least 12-15 other people that day with a better resume/transcript than you. Be prepared to hustle like crazy over the summer and send out a few hundred mailers in July if you're serious about landing a big firm job. Most people are too lazy to do this and then regret it later on.

Anything below top third or so is pretty much hosed for OCI. Tarheel87 is DEFINITELY the exception to the rule with receiving 10 interviews with top 40%ish grades. I am going to guess that most of these were with medium-sized or small NC firms, maybe one or two looks from biglaw places.

You can still get solid gigs without top grades. Just be prepared to network and hustle your ass off.

Sorry for the novel. Feel free to pm for chapter 2.

[tarheel87]

I don't get on here much , but I wanted to clear up a few things.

1.) I was right around median for 1L OCI and got several great interviews, so that is possible. For 2L OCI, I still wasn't in the top 40% and got at least 10 interviews through OCI (and many more outside of that), so this is clearly also possible. Granted, I did not end up getting my current job through OCI, but at least getting interviews is very possible from median. I was not alone in this respect.

2.) Way more than 50 firms at 2L OCI. I did a count early on, which I unfortunately no longer have, and I distinctly recall it being over 70, possibly more.

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better. That being said, I would venture a guess that I am the exception rather than the rule.

(are you from NC? That seems to make a big difference).

This. It would be pretty helpful if you answered this question to confirm/dispel the thought that NC ties = more interviews. Also, can you clarify the types of firms that you had interviews with? Both Pirate and I were generally referring to big law firms and the top boutiques (BP, RB, SA). If you were also getting those interviews, thats awesome and can be encouraging to prospective students.

70 unique firms seems high, but I didnt count them. 45-50 would have been my guess.

To you 1Ls discouraged that you didnt get interviews for spring OCI, dont be. Just keep hustling. Firms will expand their range for fall OCI, so hopefully you are in that band of required grades by then. However, if you had your heart set on WCSR, you are out of luck because i dont think they do 2L hiring anymore.

I guess I better clear up a few things (even if it does ruin the good story ). Yes, I am a lifelong NC resident and I did count resume collect firms in my count of OCI firms. But I did get biglaw interviews through OCI and even got a callback for one, although many of my interviews were with midlaw and small law firms.

Although I didn't have too much trouble getting interviews, I kinda doubt the big firms were giving me serious consideration to be honest. I ended up with 5-6 pretty good offers through mass mailing, though I don't think I had anything concrete through OCI. Basically, I just want prospect students and 1L's to realize that if you put in the work and aren't socially inept you can accomplish alot through OCI and mass mailing (i.e. get consideration from excellent firms, interviews, and even offers). Wake is a good school and it is very well-respected in NC; not being in the top 25% isn't the end of the world.

[Gail]

How do you guys see UNC? Friend? Foe?

[pifhib2]

How do you guys see UNC? Friend? Foe?

Since I've been at Wake I haven't really thought much about UNC. Wake outperforms them when it comes to employment but I would say that they're our peer in-state. I think we have a leg up out of state though.

[Gail]

What are people doing for summer?

What do most 1Ls do? How about 2Ls? I've been told a majority get hired through networking, but what scares me to death is the idea of being left out cold if I get shut out for 2L OCI.

Family friend has a son who went to one of the many TTs in my area, graduated in 2009, and still has no job because, among other obvious things, he couldn't find any SA work of note (think he worked with some extended family but they couldn't offer him anything because it was a 2 person firm).


What about 1L? What do people usually do?
Will I as a midwesterner or another person as a Northeasterner or westerner have significant uphill battles because we're not just out of state but out of region? Chances of getting any 1L in the area, either Virginia or NC? I know the advice is to network, but is there concern about time constraints given the competitiveness of the first year?

Same question about 2L, with the added significance of not getting anything local for 1L.


I'll be visiting Wake Forest in March. Chances of getting some answers from others as well? Chances of annoying people in person because I seem to ask too many damn questions?


Please eliminate my fears! Or at least until my mind starts to wander further into worst case scenarios.

[moandersen]

What are people doing for summer?

What do most 1Ls do? How about 2Ls? I've been told a majority get hired through networking, but what scares me to death is the idea of being left out cold if I get shut out for 2L OCI.

Family friend has a son who went to one of the many TTs in my area, graduated in 2009, and still has no job because, among other obvious things, he couldn't find any SA work of note (think he worked with some extended family but they couldn't offer him anything because it was a 2 person firm).


What about 1L? What do people usually do?
Will I as a midwesterner or another person as a Northeasterner or westerner have significant uphill battles because we're not just out of state but out of region? Chances of getting any 1L in the area, either Virginia or NC? I know the advice is to network, but is there concern about time constraints given the competitiveness of the first year?

Same question about 2L, with the added significance of not getting anything local for 1L.


I'll be visiting Wake Forest in March. Chances of getting some answers from others as well? Chances of annoying people in person because I seem to ask too many damn questions?


Please eliminate my fears! Or at least until my mind starts to wander further into worst case scenarios.

You need to chill out girl. Most of these questions have already been answered either recently in this thread, or in other threads about WF. Relax. When you visit try to get a feel for the school. You know the answer to most, if not all of your questions already.

[SteelyDan]

What are people doing for summer?

What do most 1Ls do? How about 2Ls? I've been told a majority get hired through networking, but what scares me to death is the idea of being left out cold if I get shut out for 2L OCI.

Family friend has a son who went to one of the many TTs in my area, graduated in 2009, and still has no job because, among other obvious things, he couldn't find any SA work of note (think he worked with some extended family but they couldn't offer him anything because it was a 2 person firm).


What about 1L? What do people usually do?
Will I as a midwesterner or another person as a Northeasterner or westerner have significant uphill battles because we're not just out of state but out of region? Chances of getting any 1L in the area, either Virginia or NC? I know the advice is to network, but is there concern about time constraints given the competitiveness of the first year?

Same question about 2L, with the added significance of not getting anything local for 1L.


I'll be visiting Wake Forest in March. Chances of getting some answers from others as well? Chances of annoying people in person because I seem to ask too many damn questions?


Please eliminate my fears! Or at least until my mind starts to wander further into worst case scenarios.

You need to chill out girl. Most of these questions have already been answered either recently in this thread, or in other threads about WF. Relax. When you visit try to get a feel for the school. You know the answer to most, if not all of your questions already.

Seriously. Stop worrying about worst case scenarios, they almost never come true. We have people from all over the country here who love it and will go / have gone on to be successful. You'll know when you get here whether it's where you belong, trust me.

[Gail]

Thanks. You're right! I do worry too much. Like a neurotic patient with a toothache. I'm just excited about Wake and I want to be as prepared as possible and ready to put my best foot forward.

How about food? Restaurants on or near campus?

[Stevoman]

How are the employment prospects from WF in the "Research Triangle" of NC, specifically for people with electrical/computer engineering backgrounds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Triangle

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better.

lulz, you won't be popular around here for saying that.

DON'T YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU AREN'T TOP 10% AT A T14 YOU'RE GOING TO BE FLIPPING BURGERS WHEN YOU GRADUATE?!

[PirateCap'n]

Thanks. You're right! I do worry too much. Like a neurotic patient with a toothache. I'm just excited about Wake and I want to be as prepared as possible and ready to put my best foot forward.

How about food? Restaurants on or near campus?

I agree with the two folks above. If you'll look at the previous posts in this thread, many of your questions will be answered. If you look through the thread and are still worried, we'll be happy to try explaining things better.

As for restaurants/food, this site is fairly helpful: http://www.smittysnotes.com/

[PirateCap'n]

How are the employment prospects from WF in the "Research Triangle" of NC, specifically for people with electrical/computer engineering backgrounds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_Triangle

Things aren't as bad as you think and they are getting better.

lulz, you won't be popular around here for saying that.

DON'T YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU AREN'T TOP 10% AT A T14 YOU'RE GOING TO BE FLIPPING BURGERS WHEN YOU GRADUATE?!

Job prospects in and around RTP are about the same as anywhere else right now. If the firms like you and you have good grades, you've got a good shot. If not, you don't. Since you asked about electrical/computer engineering backgrounds, I assume you have one. That will definitely be a plus when you're looking at firms in that area. If you're from NC, that will help you even more, although I don't think it's quite as important in RTP since many of the people who work there are originally from other states (especially from up north).

[tstyler98]

Thanks. You're right! I do worry too much. Like a neurotic patient with a toothache. I'm just excited about Wake and I want to be as prepared as possible and ready to put my best foot forward.

How about food? Restaurants on or near campus?

There is currently a little shop in the building that offers sandwiches, salads, sushi, chips, and drinks. Some people eat there all the time. I've only gotten something there once. Up on campus (about 5-10 minute walk) is a Subway, an all-you-can eat place, a Starbucks, another coffee shop, a food court, and they are putting in a Moe's.

I usually bring my lunch everyday. There are two fridges in the basement, and there are several microwaves. There is often free food at least once a week (usually Papa John's pizza) for different group meetings.

There are a ton of restaurants off campus. A lot of chain restaurants, but a lot of locally owned places as well.

[Gail]

So this might be a new one. What would you estimate your COL is?

By which I mean, car (fuel), utilities, rent, food, and clothes?

Above or below 20,000?

[PirateCap'n]

So this might be a new one. What would you estimate your COL is?

By which I mean, car (fuel), utilities, rent, food, and clothes?

Above or below 20,000?

COL is definitely below $20,000. I usually take out enough loans for $14,000-15,000 over the course of the year, and that's way more than enough to live comfortably.

[SteelyDan]

So this might be a new one. What would you estimate your COL is?

By which I mean, car (fuel), utilities, rent, food, and clothes?

Above or below 20,000?

I've never added it up, so take this with a grain of salt... I maxed out whatever the school recommended and it was probably $4-5k too much. Rent's my biggest expense and that's really, really cheap here compared to bigger cities. Utilities are pretty cheap also, I spend less on gas + electric + water than I spent on just electricity in other places. Food & clothes? I don't know - how much did you spend in undergrad?

A note about driving/parking - the campus shuttles that go around to the apartment complexes are awesome and stick to the schedule 99% of the time. The black line stops close to the law school while the gold line stops on the undergrad campus, which is NOT convenient. I've taken the black line all year and it's mostly good

I say mostly because I just finished telling someone I'd probably break down and buy a parking pass next year (~$500). When it's raining or I have to get somewhere quickly after class, I'd prefer to have my car here. Definitely a personal preference though, the buses really are a good option.

[Nicholasnickynic]

How do you guys see UNC? Friend? Foe?

Since I've been at Wake I haven't really thought much about UNC. Wake outperforms them when it comes to employment but I would say that they're our peer in-state. I think we have a leg up out of state though.

They beat the shit out of us in non-criminal gov't work.

All the governors are always unc. Attorney general right now: UNC. Most of supreme court judges: UNC. NC DOJ during my 1L summer: 40 spots. 2 were wake, around 15-20 were unc.

[SteelyDan]

How do you guys see UNC? Friend? Foe?

Since I've been at Wake I haven't really thought much about UNC. Wake outperforms them when it comes to employment but I would say that they're our peer in-state. I think we have a leg up out of state though.

They beat the shit out of us in non-criminal gov't work.

All the governors are always unc. Attorney general right now: UNC. Most of supreme court judges: UNC. NC DOJ during my 1L summer: 40 spots. 2 were wake, around 15-20 were unc.

Easley was NC Central... and surprisingly has STILL not been disbarred!

[Nicholasnickynic]

How do you guys see UNC? Friend? Foe?

Since I've been at Wake I haven't really thought much about UNC. Wake outperforms them when it comes to employment but I would say that they're our peer in-state. I think we have a leg up out of state though.

They beat the shit out of us in non-criminal gov't work.

All the governors are always unc. Attorney general right now: UNC. Most of supreme court judges: UNC. NC DOJ during my 1L summer: 40 spots. 2 were wake, around 15-20 were unc.

Easley was NC Central... and surprisingly has STILL not been disbarred!

fair enough hahah.

Overarching point though:
Govt: UNC WIN
Private: WAKE WIN

[PirateCap'n]

Overarching point though:
Govt: UNC WIN
Private: WAKE WIN

While I don't disagree that UNC is probably a better bet for the North Carolina government, I think you have to look at it in context. 70% of Wake students are from out of state, and the majority of them won't be working in the NC government. If they work in government, it will be the Federal Government or their own state's government. UNC, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. Nearly all of their students are from in-state, and, thus, they're likely to place more in NC government. I don't think that the fact that they place more people in NC government is necessarily indicative of how the two place in government outside of NC. It's a bit of an over-generalization to say that UNC dominates any state government other than NC (although it could be the same in those states -- I haven't seen any statistics for that).

Truly, if you want NC government, Central is probably higher than Wake because UNC and Central grads tend to do government jobs, while Wake and Campbell grads generally do private practice.

[SteelyDan]

Truly, if you want NC government, Central is probably higher than Wake because UNC and Central grads tend to do government jobs, while Wake and Campbell grads generally do private practice.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get crazy and suggest Campbell grads get jobs!

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

So this might be a new one. What would you estimate your COL is?

By which I mean, car (fuel), utilities, rent, food, and clothes?

Above or below 20,000?

This depends on your situation.

Are you still on your parents' health insurance? Do you pay your own car insurance? Cell Phone? Do you have a car loan? What do you hope to do during your 1L summer if a high-paying firm gig doesn't work out? Can you live at home for a few months for free?

I took out the max during 1L ($19,500ish) and used every penny to pay for the above and survive during the summer while I worked my minimum wage legal job.

[ash0117]

Wake Forest is currently my top choice. I have a few questions, if you don't mind. Sorry for asking so much, I just want to make sure I understand the few things I didn't get a clear answer to on my visit. THANKS!

1. After reading the Wake Acceptances, Denials and Waitlists thread, I am concerned regarding safety in Winston-Salem. It seems as though there is an unusually high crime rate. I come from a town in Florida of similar population and I have definitely never felt unsafe. Are the Crowne Apartments/campus safe enough?

2. How would you describe the culture of the law school? Political leanings, personalities, competitiveness, etc.

3. How is the alumni network? Do they seem to be supportive of current students/recent grads?

4. What type of networking opportunities are available for students?

5. What are your most favorite and least favorite qualities of the school?

6. How does Career Services help students find jobs? Do they have any workshops, seminars, etc to help with the process?

7. How hard is it participate in clinics? The DC program?

Anything else relevant would also be appreciated. Sorry if I repeat questions already answered, I have not had a chance to read the entire thread.

[SteelyDan]

1. After reading the Wake Acceptances, Denials and Waitlists thread, I am concerned regarding safety in Winston-Salem. It seems as though there is an unusually high crime rate. I come from a town in Florida of similar population and I have definitely never felt unsafe. Are the Crowne Apartments/campus safe enough?

That's nonsense... I'm not sure how people who have just been accepted would know such things. W-S is very safe. The Crownes are gated, but like any apartment complex with a bunch of college students, there will inevitably be a few cars broken into and the like. As long you act with common sense, you won't have any problems.

2. How would you describe the culture of the law school? Political leanings, personalities, competitiveness, etc.

Politically all over the map. Coming from a super-Liberal undergrad institution, I was pleased to find some Conservatives to commiserate with. Competitiveness really isn't a problem, it's a small enough school that people generally get along.

3. How is the alumni network? Do they seem to be supportive of current students/recent grads?

Small-ish alumni network, but very dedicated and extremely helpful if you ask for anything.

4. What type of networking opportunities are available for students?

Tons. There's something going on practically every day, and most of them offer free pizza.

5. What are your most favorite and least favorite qualities of the school?

Most - small classes. It makes a huge difference to get all the personal attention you want from profs and TAs.

Least - Research and writing. The profs I have (and some, but not all of the others) really don't give a damn.

6. How does Career Services help students find jobs? Do they have any workshops, seminars, etc to help with the process?

They do what they can, but ultimately finding a job is your responsibility. They put a lot of opportunities in front of us, but the market being the way it is, there just aren't enough jobs to go around. If you put the legwork in, you won't have trouble finding a job, but you certainly can't expect CS to do it for you.

7. How hard is it participate in clinics? The DC program?

I'll defer to a 2L or 3L on that.

[ash0117]

Thanks so much for all the info. I figured the crime thing was bs after visiting- just figured I'd get some more opinions. Wake sounds amazing, I can't wait to get there!

1. After reading the Wake Acceptances, Denials and Waitlists thread, I am concerned regarding safety in Winston-Salem. It seems as though there is an unusually high crime rate. I come from a town in Florida of similar population and I have definitely never felt unsafe. Are the Crowne Apartments/campus safe enough?

That's nonsense... I'm not sure how people who have just been accepted would know such things. W-S is very safe. The Crownes are gated, but like any apartment complex with a bunch of college students, there will inevitably be a few cars broken into and the like. As long you act with common sense, you won't have any problems.

2. How would you describe the culture of the law school? Political leanings, personalities, competitiveness, etc.

Politically all over the map. Coming from a super-Liberal undergrad institution, I was pleased to find some Conservatives to commiserate with. Competitiveness really isn't a problem, it's a small enough school that people generally get along.

3. How is the alumni network? Do they seem to be supportive of current students/recent grads?

Small-ish alumni network, but very dedicated and extremely helpful if you ask for anything.

4. What type of networking opportunities are available for students?

Tons. There's something going on practically every day, and most of them offer free pizza.

5. What are your most favorite and least favorite qualities of the school?

Most - small classes. It makes a huge difference to get all the personal attention you want from profs and TAs.

Least - Research and writing. The profs I have (and some, but not all of the others) really don't give a damn.

6. How does Career Services help students find jobs? Do they have any workshops, seminars, etc to help with the process?

They do what they can, but ultimately finding a job is your responsibility. They put a lot of opportunities in front of us, but the market being the way it is, there just aren't enough jobs to go around. If you put the legwork in, you won't have trouble finding a job, but you certainly can't expect CS to do it for you.

7. How hard is it participate in clinics? The DC program?

I'll defer to a 2L or 3L on that.