failing to understand the hours/workload challenge Forum

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beepboopbeep

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by beepboopbeep » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:08 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:30 pm
I think it’s that thing of whether something is just trading on cliches or whether it sounds cliched bc it’s true.
It's definitely possible, but if I just felt like getting TLS regulars riled up, I'd write something like this post.
bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:46 pm
led me to appreciate things like Scalia's thoughtfully constructed but personally biased opinion regarding the common usage of 'keep and bear' on DC v Heller
jesus christ please no one take this bait

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by Sackboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:11 pm

bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Everyone's interested in something. What I was interested in led me to appreciate things like Scalia's thoughtfully constructed but personally biased opinion regarding the common usage of 'keep and bear' on DC v Heller, and this history of property right/land use and social control.
I think you're being called out for a few reasons.

First, actual lawyers and law students on TLS rarely ever talk about how they "appreciate things like Scalia's thoughtfully constructed but personally biased opinion regarding the common usage of 'keep and bear.'"

Second, you seem to understand the number of hours, but you seem to fail to appreciate the quality of those hours. In many jobs, you can use rehearsed pitches or let muscle memory take over. Proofreading 12 hours a day for commas and then getting a snarky email that makes you feel like your credibility as a "quality associate" is undermined in the partner's eyes (aka the person who feeds you) for missing something mundane is a different kind of mental exercise. You never get to just turn your mind off. Also, the freedom to set your own hours is severely limited, and your days can blow up in a moments notice. I've had to cancel vacation several times while practicing in biglaw, and it's not uncommon. The partners are usually apologetic, but it still sucks to not just be able to go "I'm done for today" without the fear of earning some invisible demerit for it that might cost you your job at a review in six months for "not being a team player." The fact that small things can feel like they are going to cripple your career at a firm (or actually cripple it) is what makes the hours brutal.

Third, I don't think anyone here (I'll be honest I skimmed most of the posts) said anything about needing to be the top 10% at ND/WUSTL to get biglaw. That'd be very uncharacteristic of this forum. We do, however, have a memory that stretches back many years when the last recession hit and 20% of ND/WUSTL students were getting Biglaw jobs instead of the 50-60% in a good economy. That's why we criticize anyone focusing on the current year's numbers. They can turn on a dime, unlike T13 schools, which have historically seen far less of a hit during the recession. These schools are also placing people at the same place in their class as a T13 school in considerably worse firms. A median student at WashU might land St. Louis "biglaw" which will show up as biglaw in the statistics, but they get paid $130k with an incredibly compressed salary; meanwhile, a Cornell student at median probably lands at a V50 making $190k and lockstepping their way to $340k. The latter group also has far better exit options. We're not bad at math. We're just not bad at logic.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:29 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:11 pm
bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:46 pm

Everyone's interested in something. What I was interested in led me to appreciate things like Scalia's thoughtfully constructed but personally biased opinion regarding the common usage of 'keep and bear' on DC v Heller, and this history of property right/land use and social control.
I think you're being called out for a few reasons.

First, actual lawyers and law students on TLS rarely ever talk about how they "appreciate things like Scalia's thoughtfully constructed but personally biased opinion regarding the common usage of 'keep and bear.'"

Second, you seem to understand the number of hours, but you seem to fail to appreciate the quality of those hours. In many jobs, you can use rehearsed pitches or let muscle memory take over. Proofreading 12 hours a day for commas and then getting a snarky email that makes you feel like your credibility as a "quality associate" is undermined in the partner's eyes (aka the person who feeds you) for missing something mundane is a different kind of mental exercise. You never get to just turn your mind off. Also, the freedom to set your own hours is severely limited, and your days can blow up in a moments notice. I've had to cancel vacation several times while practicing in biglaw, and it's not uncommon. The partners are usually apologetic, but it still sucks to not just be able to go "I'm done for today" without the fear of earning some invisible demerit for it that might cost you your job at a review in six months for "not being a team player." The fact that small things can feel like they are going to cripple your career at a firm (or actually cripple it) is what makes the hours brutal.

Third, I don't think anyone here (I'll be honest I skimmed most of the posts) said anything about needing to be the top 10% at ND/WUSTL to get biglaw. That'd be very uncharacteristic of this forum. We do, however, have a memory that stretches back many years when the last recession hit and 20% of ND/WUSTL students were getting Biglaw jobs instead of the 50-60% in a good economy. That's why we criticize anyone focusing on the current year's numbers. They can turn on a dime, unlike T13 schools, which have historically seen far less of a hit during the recession. These schools are also placing people at the same place in their class as a T13 school in considerably worse firms. A median student at WashU might land St. Louis "biglaw" which will show up as biglaw in the statistics, but they get paid $130k with an incredibly compressed salary; meanwhile, a Cornell student at median probably lands at a V50 making $190k and lockstepping their way to $340k. The latter group also has far better exit options. We're not bad at math. We're just not bad at logic.
yeah, timeline and admissions and potential to get the job from OCI etc is a big deal but in the end it's not the question i was asking about, if I'm deadset on biglaw and nothing pans out OCI i have a strong network as mentioned.

if we get back to the initial post i was asking about how much time lawyers spend writing per day, the content/tedium of the writing. if we want to get down to details, the particulars of the practice groups would be nice. I'm aware that appellate and scotus lawyers write the most. Let's talk, healthcare, ERISA, trade secrets, antitrust, debt finance, etc. How much time reviewing language, producing memo's or drafts per day? Excel modeling? You know, all those lawyery things beyond fantasizing about a life that doesn't so closely resemble your own.

We've talked on call and how troublesome the hours are etc. I get that very clearly, now to the other parts of the question if we may.

not terribly interested in how people feel about the state of the legal market from 10 years ago, or even 5 years from now, but I understand, everyone has trauma, gotta get that shit off your chest.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:47 pm

bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:29 pm
if we get back to the initial post i was asking about how much time lawyers spend writing per day, the content/tedium of the writing. if we want to get down to details, the particulars of the practice groups would be nice. I'm aware that appellate and scotus lawyers write the most. Let's talk, healthcare, ERISA, trade secrets, antitrust, debt finance, etc. How much time reviewing language, producing memo's or drafts per day? Excel modeling? You know, all those lawyery things beyond fantasizing about a life that doesn't so closely resemble your own.
Comically broad question. Assuming you're serious, which seems less likely with every one of these posts: lurk more. Most of this stuff has been discussed extensively in this forum before. Also, talk to people in your network about what they do every day.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by nixy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:52 pm

Yeah, broad and subjective. I’m in lit so I spend a lot of time writing; it’s one of the skills my office hires for. I personally really like writing and research (most of the time). There are plenty of lawyers who HATE it and haven’t opened Westlaw since graduating law school. And there are others who might like writing but not on the issues my practice covers. Tedium is in the eye of the beholder.

(I’ve never excel modeled anything, though.)

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:29 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Yeah, broad and subjective. I’m in lit so I spend a lot of time writing; it’s one of the skills my office hires for. I personally really like writing and research (most of the time). There are plenty of lawyers who HATE it and haven’t opened Westlaw since graduating law school. And there are others who might like writing but not on the issues my practice covers. Tedium is in the eye of the beholder.

(I’ve never excel modeled anything, though.)
i deeply appreciate you wrangling my overly broad questions and presenting a concise response. i think i'd probably appreciate lit more just based on what i'm hearing about happiness, hour types, and the intellectual challenge.

i have talked to my network about some of their experiences. one involves one of the craziest divorces i've ever heard about, one axed in year 4 to go to insurance defense, one up for partner next year @ lit boutique. one a parter in a transactional role heading a practice group, another a Cooley grad with his own firm charging $350 an hour getting business from charity parties and local gala's. they all just say they love it and wouldn't do anything else, especially the guy that went through the insane divorce, he's rolling in it now. there's limited comma hunting but everyone acts like doc review is the only thing and it's the end of the world. most of them are rainmakers or rainmakers to-be. incidentally the cooley grad running his own show is probably tied for happiness with the one up for lit partner this year.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:09 pm

I'm excited to see if you're this demanding when you're a first-year at the biglaw firm in Texas you're absolutely guaranteed a spot at thanks to "networking." But do you have any actual questions to ask people? At this point, your questions are getting more and more ridiculous, and you seem to only be asking them in order to reply that you've heard differently from your very esteemed divorced-lawyer friends.

By the way, kudos on now working a Cooley grad into your insane narrative. Because it's all about lending credibility to the story that anyone can make it if they just try hard enough.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by beepboopbeep » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:58 pm

Cooley is just such an old-TLS bugbear that this can no longer be anything but flame.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:09 pm
I'm excited to see if you're this demanding when you're a first-year at the biglaw firm in Texas you're absolutely guaranteed a spot at thanks to "networking." But do you have any actual questions to ask people? At this point, your questions are getting more and more ridiculous, and you seem to only be asking them in order to reply that you've heard differently from your very esteemed divorced-lawyer friends.

By the way, kudos on now working a Cooley grad into your insane narrative. Because it's all about lending credibility to the story that anyone can make it if they just try hard enough.
don't be mad because you make less a cooley grad. some people around here are surprisingly sensitive, getting short because I ask about what % of time is spent writing vs comma wrangling and have a decade-plus career that i can call upon as book of business. this hypersensitivity, and readiness to take offense and ridicule must be part of why people complain about biglaw and others just call it a job. must be that INTJ prevalence.

regardless, I didn't say they're divorced. I said one was. He's the one that talks about the massive amount of life sacrifice that went into a successful career. Missing kids stuff and always being in the office etc. The others are happily married to dentists, various business people that were embarking on their own careers at the same time and never thought anything of it. The Cooley grad is single, aggressive bro-type that he is.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:06 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:58 pm
Cooley is just such an old-TLS bugbear that this can no longer be anything but flame.
if daddy's a doctor and will float you until you figure your shit out, you too can be a lawyer :roll:

doesn't ring super well down those marketing channels

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by beepboopbeep » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:24 pm

bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:06 pm
if daddy's a doctor and will float you until you figure your shit out, you too can be a lawyer :roll:

doesn't ring super well down those marketing channels
The fuck are you talking about? I am a practicing attorney, and would've been happy to answer your substantive questions if you'd been anything other than a dick to the people who'd done that before.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by nixy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:36 pm

Probably a decent percentage of Cooley grads who are working as lawyers are solos, because they have terrible employment numbers with actual firms, and the thing with solos is that they sink or swim, and the ones who swim can do pretty well for themselves. (Though charging $350 an hour isn’t really very high?)

Although relying on Myers-Briggs to explain how people are reacting to you is pretty lol.

The thing is, OP, you’re talking to people who succeeded and are still in the profession. They love it, but basically none of them are in biglaw, right? And you’re not talking to people who hated it and left.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:11 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:24 pm
bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:06 pm
if daddy's a doctor and will float you until you figure your shit out, you too can be a lawyer :roll:

doesn't ring super well down those marketing channels
The fuck are you talking about? I am a practicing attorney, and would've been happy to answer your substantive questions if you'd been anything other than a dick to the people who'd done that before.
being to the point is not being a dick, but ok. and i'm saying the only cooley attorney i know dicked off for years until his doctor dad paid for him to go to law school and start his firm so he didn't have to keep giving him money.

just mentioning his name used to make attorneys in the area where I used to live crack a smile and shake their heads. he's decent at what he does, but is hilariously unprofessional. not a role model but not everyone has to take the same path to success and happiness.


:edit: lol i get it now, you thought that comment was supposed to be an insulting response to what you had posted when it was a comment on the cooley attorney i know and cooley in general. this is what i talk about with people just being ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
Last edited by bdiggity18 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:22 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:36 pm
Probably a decent percentage of Cooley grads who are working as lawyers are solos, because they have terrible employment numbers with actual firms, and the thing with solos is that they sink or swim, and the ones who swim can do pretty well for themselves. (Though charging $350 an hour isn’t really very high?)

Although relying on Myers-Briggs to explain how people are reacting to you is pretty lol.

The thing is, OP, you’re talking to people who succeeded and are still in the profession. They love it, but basically none of them are in biglaw, right? And you’re not talking to people who hated it and left.
2 biglaw partners and 1 associate i stay relatively in touch with, 2 in lit boutiques, the insurance defender seems to be looking for better options but she likes the trial environment even tho she's making as much as I am. The biglaw partners are the ones that seem to have suffered the most despite the fact that they say they it was worth it. when some of the other lawyers I've worked with heard *Cooley's* rate they roared laughing saying he didn't deserve half that, but between his hourly and contigencies he's rolling in it, building giant new house in his hometown. that's in a relatively rural market where 200-300 is pretty standard range for hourlies and he's probably around 1200 hours a year + awards and keeps basically all of it except for what he pays his secretary.

your point strikes more to the heart of the issue, whether or not u like the material and the work, biglaw seem to suffer more for the same level of challenge due to the bureaucracy, partner politics, etc. obviously small/mid firms can have the sweatshop affect but seemingly lower barriers to entry.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by Sackboy » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:37 pm

I wish I could conduct the equivalent of a citizen's arrest on a forum and lock this post as a non-mod.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by bdiggity18 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Sackboy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:37 pm
I wish I could conduct the equivalent of a citizen's arrest on a forum and lock this post as a non-mod.
makes sense tho why i failed to understand until i started this thread and experience it myself. because so many self-proclaimed biglawyers are concerned with picking fights over imagined slights, i get myself some good info from nixy and existential but so many others find a reason to take offense. if i was at a job and only liked 1 or 2 people there and everyone else seems like standoffish children, I'd hate my job too.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by beepboopbeep » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:04 pm

bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:11 pm
lol i get it now, you thought that comment was supposed to be an insulting response to what you had posted when it was a comment on the cooley attorney i know and cooley in general. this is what i talk about with people just being ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
Yes, reading your reply this way was definitely my fault. Agree with Sackboy.
bdiggity18 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:47 pm
Sackboy wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:37 pm
I wish I could conduct the equivalent of a citizen's arrest on a forum and lock this post as a non-mod.
makes sense tho why i failed to understand until i started this thread and experience it myself. because so many self-proclaimed biglawyers are concerned with picking fights over imagined slights, i get myself some good info from nixy and existential but so many others find a reason to take offense. if i was at a job and only liked 1 or 2 people there and everyone else seems like standoffish children, I'd hate my job too.
My job here is done.

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by Libya » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 pm

Another day, another thread I wish I could unread.


Also, the “I know X person who can get me a biglaw SA even if I am at Y school” is TLS’s version of the 2007 kids saying “my dad works for Microsoft and you’re going to get banned”


To OP: lawyers are just weak-willed and you will certainly be happy doing M&A at a V5, don’t listen to the losers and haters; but even if you aren’t happy it doesn’t matter because you’re not some snowflake

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Re: failing to understand the hours/workload challenge

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:21 am

Locking this for obvious reasons.

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