Baltimore biglaw: hard/easy out of CCN? Forum

[ravens999]

Hello TLS'ers, I'm a 0L starting at a CCN in a few months and I was wondering if the Baltimore biglaw market was grade-selective for someone coming out of CCN with ties? My SO is starting medical practice in the Baltimore area and while I’d be willing to start in a bigger market and try to lateral over, I would strongly prefer to kick of my career in Baltimore, hopefully at a market paying firm. I read the two recent threads brainstorming which Baltimore firms would be good to target but I am wondering everyone’s general impression about the difficulty of getting a biglaw job in this market from CCN? For example I’ve heard that CCN can pretty much count on NYC but DC would be hard and CA is kind of in the middle, etc.

[BansheeScream]

This is a tough question just because I'm assuming the sample size is pretty small. There are only a few big law firms in Baltimore. Venable, Hogan, DLA come to mind. Venable has a 8-10~ summers every year, Hogan has less than that, and I have no idea about DLA. Regardless, there's probably less than 20 "big law" summer associate positions in the city every year. While there's not many positions, most students are top of their class at UMD, tippy tippy top at UB, and a range of grades at t14s who want to practice in Baltimore for whatever reason. I know people at Duke/UVA who have gotten offers with median grades or slightly above. Mind you, these people had significant Baltimore ties.

The market is very ties sensitive. They care about where you're from and where you went to undergrad. I was asked where I went to high school multiple times throughout my interview process. They also start interviewing in late July and if you're set on Baltimore big law, you should work there your 1L summer. Midlaw/Biglaw, U.S. Dist Court, USAO, are the options you should be shooting for 1L. Because your SO lives there, I don't think you'd have a problem getting an offer as long as you show interest in the practice areas the firm does and you communicate your intention to stay in Baltimore long term. The firms know that CCN is prestigious and if they can scoop up someone from one of those schools I don't see why they wouldn't.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I'd second this—ties matter in Baltimore. It's the kind of city where people ask each where they went to high school when they first meet.

That said, there's a decent number of folks at places like Hogan who came to the city because of a spouse in medicine. Beyond the biglaw firms, you should look at the top-end local places, like Miles & Stockbridge, Gallagher Evelius, Saul Ewing, Gordon Feinblatt, and regional firms that are there like Womble Bond and Baker Donelson. There's also another tier lower of MD firms like Pessin Katz. All of these firms will have small summer programs, if any, so you should basically blanket the market.

[notinbiglaw]

What I heard at GULC is it’s pretty easy to get interviews but there are so few positions paying market or close to it it’s hard to actually get one.

[ravens999]

All of these firms will have small summer programs, if any, so you should basically blanket the market.

Thanks for this, I'll definitely add these to the list of firms I'm targeting. In case I don't get Venable/Hogan/DLA Piper, would it be a better strategy to take any legal job I can get in Baltimore both 1L and 2L to demonstrate ties/commitment to the city and then try to "trade up" to biglaw during 3L, or would Baltimore biglaw be more attainable if I took a 2L SA in a higher / equally ranked biglaw firm in my school's home market and try to "trade laterally / down" to a Baltimore biglaw firm?

I.e., if we assume I have the grades to get a 2L SA at a good biglaw firm in my school's home market, is having a well-known biglaw SA on my resume a stronger way to overcome the ties barrier than just taking anything I can get in the city during 1L and 2L?

[QContinuum]

Is there no way your SO could conceivably "lateral" to a bigger market, say Boston, NYC or D.C.? BigLaw jobs are much more geographically restricted than medical jobs, which can generally be found in any big city. You'd be significantly limiting your career options/potential by restricting yourself to Baltimore BigLaw, whereas your SO's career really wouldn't be negatively impacted at all if they were to practice medicine in Boston/NYC/D.C. instead of Baltimore.

[BlackAndOrange84]

All of these firms will have small summer programs, if any, so you should basically blanket the market.

Thanks for this, I'll definitely add these to the list of firms I'm targeting. In case I don't get Venable/Hogan/DLA Piper, would it be a better strategy to take any legal job I can get in Baltimore both 1L and 2L to demonstrate ties/commitment to the city and then try to "trade up" to biglaw during 3L, or would Baltimore biglaw be more attainable if I took a 2L SA in a higher / equally ranked biglaw firm in my school's home market and try to "trade laterally / down" to a Baltimore biglaw firm?

I.e., if we assume I have the grades to get a 2L SA at a good biglaw firm in my school's home market, is having a well-known biglaw SA on my resume a stronger way to overcome the ties barrier than just taking anything I can get in the city during 1L and 2L?

I'd think taking jobs in Baltimore would be the stronger look. And the lateral market is a tough thing to count on. If you can get a job there as a 1L you may well be able to trade up for the post-2L summer. Also for 1L, consider interning with a federal judge in Baltimore, the USAO, or a local public interest group. Working in DC might be an alternative, though it'd be a rough commute.

[ravens999]

Is there no way your SO could conceivably "lateral" to a bigger market, say Boston, NYC or D.C.?

We discussed that but apparently licensing across multiple states is a pain, and more importantly my SO has strong ties to an existing small practice in the area that they are expected to take over in the near future (family member nearing retirement). So because of the savings on real estate and practice-specific medical equipment, an established reputation and patient base, and the fact that medical salaries grow tend to over time while I'd expect to have a biglaw salary for only 5 or less years, it would almost make more sense for me to get a mid-tier or even non-law job if it meant maximizing my SO's long-term potential.

I was really hoping that having good grades out of a CCN would overcome the severe limits that targeting Baltimore would place on my career. (Of course I don't know how I'd do in law school yet but if I get a bad GPA I would adjust my expectations accordingly.)

For the time being I'm debating the optimal thing to do 1L / 2L summers if the end goal is Baltimore biglaw: maximize time in Baltimore even if it's not a biglaw position to show ties/interest in the area, or try to get an SA at the most competitive / "highly ranked" firm possible to increase general desirability as a candidate?

[ravens999]

I'd think taking jobs in Baltimore would be the stronger look. And the lateral market is a tough thing to count on. If you can get a job there as a 1L you may well be able to trade up for the post-2L summer. Also for 1L, consider interning with a federal judge in Baltimore, the USAO, or a local public interest group. Working in DC might be an alternative, though it'd be a rough commute.

By lateral market do you mean coming into Baltimore as 3L if one did 2L SA somewhere else, or that other thing I mentioned about taking a job in my school's home market first and lateraling later? Do you think it's easier to trade up from a non-biglaw job in Baltimore or trade laterally / down from something like a V10 NYC for example?

[QContinuum]

I was really hoping that having good grades out of a CCN would overcome the severe limits that targeting Baltimore would place on my career. (Of course I don't know how I'd do in law school yet but if I get a bad GPA I would adjust my expectations accordingly.)

For the time being I'm debating the optimal thing to do 1L / 2L summers if the end goal is Baltimore biglaw: maximize time in Baltimore even if it's not a biglaw position to show ties/interest in the area, or try to get an SA at the most competitive / "highly ranked" firm possible to increase general desirability as a candidate?

For tiny tertiary markets like Baltimore, grades really don't even matter that much (unless you wind up with less than a 3.0). Hiring tends to be idiosyncratic and much more ties-based than grades-based. You have a very compelling ties story with your spouse's family's medical practice in Baltimore.

If you want to start in Baltimore, you should absolutely do your 2L SA in Baltimore if at all possible. If you can get a 1L SA or internship in Baltimore, so much the better - that would bolster your ties story come 2L SA interview time. It is not necessary for 2L hiring purposes to do a 1L SA anywhere (though the extra money would certainly be nice if you can land one!). 1L SAs are rare and are generally reserved for URMs. The vast majority of your classmates will not be doing 1L SAs. The typical move is to do a (school-funded) judicial or nonprofit internship. You can easily do that in Baltimore.

The career limitation associated with starting in a tiny tertiary market is due to (a perception of) less sophisticated work (a perception which isn't always true, but it is what it is), a (significantly) greater risk of not having enough work to do (thus leading to an early exit from BigLaw), and a dearth of solid exit options if/when you wish to lateral or go in-house. If you were in NYC or D.C., from a CCN you would easily be able to count on spending at least 5 years in BigLaw. At worst you'd lateral once or even twice, but if you wanted it, barring a major economic crash you could pretty much be certain you could stay in BigLaw for 5-6 years. You can't count on that in Baltimore, because your lateral opportunities would be limited to nonexistent.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I was really hoping that having good grades out of a CCN would overcome the severe limits that targeting Baltimore would place on my career. (Of course I don't know how I'd do in law school yet but if I get a bad GPA I would adjust my expectations accordingly.)

For the time being I'm debating the optimal thing to do 1L / 2L summers if the end goal is Baltimore biglaw: maximize time in Baltimore even if it's not a biglaw position to show ties/interest in the area, or try to get an SA at the most competitive / "highly ranked" firm possible to increase general desirability as a candidate?

For tiny tertiary markets like Baltimore, grades really don't even matter that much (unless you wind up with less than a 3.0). Hiring tends to be idiosyncratic and much more ties-based than grades-based. You have a very compelling ties story with your spouse's family's medical practice in Baltimore.

If you want to start in Baltimore, you should absolutely do your 2L SA in Baltimore if at all possible. If you can get a 1L SA or internship in Baltimore, so much the better - that would bolster your ties story come 2L SA interview time. It is not necessary for 2L hiring purposes to do a 1L SA anywhere (though the extra money would certainly be nice if you can land one!). 1L SAs are rare and are generally reserved for URMs. The vast majority of your classmates will not be doing 1L SAs. The typical move is to do a (school-funded) judicial or nonprofit internship. You can easily do that in Baltimore.

The career limitation associated with starting in a tiny tertiary market is due to (a perception of) less sophisticated work (a perception which isn't always true, but it is what it is), a (significantly) greater risk of not having enough work to do (thus leading to an early exit from BigLaw), and a dearth of solid exit options if/when you wish to lateral or go in-house. If you were in NYC or D.C., from a CCN you would easily be able to count on spending at least 5 years in BigLaw. At worst you'd lateral once or even twice, but if you wanted it, barring a major economic crash you could pretty much be certain you could stay in BigLaw for 5-6 years. You can't count on that in Baltimore, because your lateral opportunities would be limited to nonexistent.

One note on this—lots of offices in Baltimore hire 1L summers (maybe all of them that have summer programs even?), including HoLove. It's more like Texas or cities in the South than the big markets in that regard.

Re: lateral market, sorry that wasn't clear, but I think it's applicable to both. Could be wrong, but I suspect there isn't much appetite for 3L hiring at the Baltimore firms that have summer programs. But I recall there being at least one decent firm (one of the better regional/local shops) that has no summer program and only hires 3Ls.

For whether it's easier to trade up in Baltimore or lateral in from NYC, I really don't know. Both are possible. In terms of sheer quantity, there's probably more folks who lateral in than trade up.

[QContinuum]

One note on this—lots of offices in Baltimore hire 1L summers (maybe all of them that have summer programs even?), including HoLove. It's more like Texas or cities in the South than the big markets in that regard.

Thanks for chiming in, I defer to your greater knowledge of the Baltimore market.

[BlackAndOrange84]

One note on this—lots of offices in Baltimore hire 1L summers (maybe all of them that have summer programs even?), including HoLove. It's more like Texas or cities in the South than the big markets in that regard.

Thanks for chiming in, I defer to your greater knowledge of the Baltimore market.

Thanks, one other thing I'd say looking back at your comment is that I wouldn't be so sure about the grades thing. These firms have their choice of the top 10–25% at UMD plus the top 5 or so students at UofB, plus students with ties at T14s+GT that want to get paid their first summer or have decided they want to head back to Baltimore. That's plenty to fill small summer classes. Law of averages suggests that at least some among the T14 students are going to be good students and the rest will have stronger ties. It's a common mistake on this forum to think that a T14 degree provides easy entry to smaller markets—that's not necessarily the case. If true at all it's probably limited to YHS. OP has enough of a ties story to get his foot in the door, but it's not particularly compelling compared to "I grew up here, my family is still here, my SO's family is here, I went to HS and played lacrosse here, my dad is a lawyer at X/works at a large business or financial institution in town . . ." you get the idea. In short, CCN+doctor SO in B'more isn't a sure thing—good grades would definitely help, particularly for landing at Hogan/DLA/Venable.

[QContinuum]

Thanks, one other thing I'd say looking back at your comment is that I wouldn't be so sure about the grades thing. These firms have their choice of the top 10–25% at UMD plus the top 5 or so students at UofB, plus students with ties at T14s+GT that want to get paid their first summer or have decided they want to head back to Baltimore. That's plenty to fill small summer classes. Law of averages suggests that at least some among the T14 students are going to be good students and the rest will have stronger ties. It's a common mistake on this forum to think that a T14 degree provides easy entry to smaller markets—that's not necessarily the case. If true at all it's probably limited to YHS. OP has enough of a ties story to get his foot in the door, but it's not particularly compelling compared to "I grew up here, my family is still here, my SO's family is here, I went to HS and played lacrosse here, my dad is a lawyer at X/works at a large business or financial institution in town . . ." you get the idea. In short, CCN+doctor SO in B'more isn't a sure thing—good grades would definitely help, particularly for landing at Hogan/DLA/Venable.

To be clear, I don't think a "T14 degree provides easy entry to smaller markets." I don't think I said that above. I do think small-market hiring is much more idiosyncratic and ties-based than numbers/school prestige-based. Even a 3.9 T14'er isn't going to just slide into a small-market BigLaw position absent a compelling ties story - and even with compelling ties, that's where the idiosyncracy comes in. These offices are tiny and they are going to prioritize "fit" much, much more than a huge, several-hundred-person major-market office where the screener and even the callback interviewers care much less about "fit" (due to the low likelihood of them actually working directly with any particular new hire). Small-market hiring is unpredictable and just about no one is going to be a "sure thing" - maybe the "I grew up here, my family is still here..." fellow you mention above who's top of the class at UMD would come as close as possible to being a "sure thing," but even that fellow wouldn't be hired if her interviewers don't think she'd be a good "fit."

So, sure, good grades will help. Good grades certainly can't hurt. But I don't think either good grades or school name will go quite as far in any small market than they would in a major market. And remember, to the extent small-market firms care about grades, the T14 have far more generous curves than lower-ranked law schools, so that's an innate advantage to T14 students.

[BlackAndOrange84]

Sorry if I've somewhat mischaracterized your position—I wanted to point out assumptions I see here and among law students that are basically just wrongheaded stereotypes rather than anything approaching experience or knowledge.

But you originally said "grades really don't even matter that much (unless you wind up with less than a 3.0). Hiring tends to be idiosyncratic and much more ties-based than grades-based." Both parts of that statement are wrong.

Second, you say now: "But I don't think either good grades or school name will go quite as far in any small market than they would in a major market. And remember, to the extent small-market firms care about grades, the T14 have far more generous curves than lower-ranked law schools, so that's an innate advantage to T14 students." That's mostly wrong too.

For the kinds of firms that OP is interested in and talking about grades absolutely do matter. There's a lot of competition for a small number of spots. And they likely matter more for the kind of applicant that OP is—someone who doesn't have the ideal set of ties. That is idiosyncratic, but grades very much matter.

If anything for OP, his grades matter much less for getting generic NYC Biglaw than they do for landing a job in Baltimore (a median CCN student should be able to easily land some NYC biglaw job). I'm not saying he needs the kind of grades that distinguish the average Cravath/DPW/SC associate from their classmates, but I've seen in other smaller markets where firms are happy to take a pass on median-ish T14 students without strong ties when they can just as easily fill their needs with top 5-10% from the local state school who have better ties along with maybe one or two T14 students with stronger grades and/or better ties. This may not be true of all the firms in Baltimore—I frankly don't know—but I'd wager it's true of at least some and probably many of the firms that OP is interested in. That matters given how few spots there are. Ties may be relatively more important that in other markets but the importance of grades is hardly diminished, especially for OP.

Your point on the curve is wrong in a few different ways. Lots of schools followed the T14 in adopting more generous curves. Generally you have to move pretty far down the rankings before you start encountering lots of harder curves (UofB for instance has a 2.86 median). UMD appears to have about a 3.3 median based on its graduating classes (the actual class medians are lower for first and second year classes, I'd assume because some students are dragging down the average before dropping out), which is at or just below most of the T14. And the kind of firms OP is talking about have attorneys from T14 law schools—these firms aren't without the institutional knowledge to suss out how T14's hide the ball on grades (except for UChi's system—no one understands that). And these lawyers aren't so unsophisticated as to think that they're comparing apples to apples. In any case, OP's competition is not folks at UMD with 3.3 or 3.4 GPAs. He's competing with UMD students who are running between 3.6 and 4.0. And UMD provides class rank to all students, making it easy to know exactly where OP's competitors stand.

You're right that school name doesn't matter as much—the firms there are perfectly happy taking top 10% or top 25% students from UMD or the top 5 or 10 students at UofB.

[QContinuum]

Sorry if I've somewhat mischaracterized your position—I wanted to point out assumptions I see here and among law students that are basically just wrongheaded stereotypes rather than anything approaching experience or knowledge.

But you originally said "grades really don't even matter that much (unless you wind up with less than a 3.0). Hiring tends to be idiosyncratic and much more ties-based than grades-based." Both parts of that statement are wrong.

You are again mischaracterizing my position by taking a single sentence out of context. My original post expressly said, "Hiring tends to be idiosyncratic and much more ties-based than grades-based. You have a very compelling ties story with your spouse's family's medical practice in Baltimore." My sentence about grades, in context, was clearly meant to indicate that grades matter much, much less than ties and "fit" in small-market hiring. Not that grades are irrelevant, but they pale in comparison to ties and "fit." Obviously extremely high grades would be a "plus" factor, and extremely low grades would raise a yellow/red flag, but barring those extreme differences, small-market firms who get few T14 applicants any given year are not going to be drawing fine distinctions between candidates based on GPA fractions. They are not going to look at Candidate A with a 3.35 and Candidate B with a 3.45 and decide to hire Candidate B because B's GPA is higher by 0.1. Rather they will look at which candidate they like more. If they like Candidate A more, they aren't going to lose any sleep over A's GPA being lower than B's by 0.1.

For the kinds of firms that OP is interested in and talking about grades absolutely do matter. There's a lot of competition for a small number of spots. And they likely matter more for the kind of applicant that OP is—someone who doesn't have the ideal set of ties. That is idiosyncratic, but grades very much matter.

That there is a small number of spots does not translate to firms prioritizing grades over ties and "fit." Quite the opposite. That there is a small number of spots with a correspondingly smaller number of applicants means firms care much more about ties and "fit" than grades.

I'm not saying he needs the kind of grades that distinguish the average Cravath/DPW/SC associate from their classmates, but I've seen in other smaller markets where firms are happy to take a pass on median-ish T14 students without strong ties when they can just as easily fill their needs with top 5-10% from the local state school who have better ties

So, basically, small-market firms prioritize ties and "fit" over grades and school rank, as I've asserted.

Your point on the curve is wrong in a few different ways. Lots of schools followed the T14 in adopting more generous curves. Generally you have to move pretty far down the rankings before you start encountering lots of harder curves (UofB for instance has a 2.86 median). UMD appears to have about a 3.3 median based on its graduating classes (the actual class medians are lower for first and second year classes, I'd assume because some students are dragging down the average before dropping out)

So you concede that UofB and UMD's rising 2L classes have a lower median GPA than CCN's rising 2L classes, thus proving my point.

And the kind of firms OP is talking about have attorneys from T14 law schools—these firms aren't without the institutional knowledge to suss out how T14's hide the ball on grades (except for UChi's system—no one understands that). And these lawyers aren't so unsophisticated as to think that they're comparing apples to apples. In any case, OP's competition is not folks at UMD with 3.3 or 3.4 GPAs. He's competing with UMD students who are running between 3.6 and 4.0. And UMD provides class rank to all students, making it easy to know exactly where OP's competitors stand.

Is there any shred of evidence that Baltimore BigLaw firms penalize CCN students for, well, attending CCN instead of UMD? That they "adjust" CCN GPAs downward, "translating" a CCN 3.4 into a 3.2? That they'll ding CCN students for not being able to provide a class rank?

[BlackAndOrange84]

You do a great motte and bailey, Q and a really bad job of fisking. I'd say fisking is overrated, but who does it anymore? It's cringe. Learn to be ok with being wrong or not knowing as much as you think you do. You didn't know what you were talking about, got exposed, and now are trying to flyspeck and rationalize ways out of it.

[QContinuum]

You do a great motte and bailey, Q and a really bad job of fisking. I'd say fisking is overrated, but who does it anymore? It's cringe. Learn to be ok with being wrong or not knowing as much as you think you do. You didn't know what you were talking about, got exposed, and now are trying to flyspeck and rationalize ways out of it.

Fortunately, other readers of this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions. You seem to have a weird obsession with attacking me, after I was nothing but courteous to you earlier in this thread. You have provided zero evidence for your egregiously incorrect assertion regarding a T14 "penalty" in the Baltimore market. I worry that impressionable 0Ls may see your bad advice and decide it'd be a good move to attend UMD or even UofB over Chicago.

I don't care about "losing face" or whatever. This is a pseudonymous Internet forum. I do care about not harming 0Ls/1Ls, and I feel an obligation to push back on bad advice of the sort you've been giving.

[BlackAndOrange84]

You do a great motte and bailey, Q and a really bad job of fisking. I'd say fisking is overrated, but who does it anymore? It's cringe. Learn to be ok with being wrong or not knowing as much as you think you do. You didn't know what you were talking about, got exposed, and now are trying to flyspeck and rationalize ways out of it.

Fortunately, other readers of this thread will be able to draw their own conclusions. You seem to have a weird obsession with attacking me, after I was nothing but courteous to you earlier in this thread. You have provided zero evidence for your egregiously incorrect assertion regarding a T14 "penalty" in the Baltimore market. I worry that impressionable 0Ls may see your bad advice and decide it'd be a good move to attend UMD or even UofB over Chicago.

I don't care about "losing face" or whatever. This is a pseudonymous Internet forum. I do care about not harming 0Ls/1Ls, and I feel an obligation to push back on bad advice of the sort you've been giving.

LOL. You're mad on the internet, seeing this as an attack, and claiming I'm obsessed.

Not sure where you're reading a "T14 penalty." Maybe you can explain why you're reading that in?

A medianish T14 student with weak ties is going to be at a disadvantage to everyone he's competing against for these jobs: top local students (who have better grades albeit from weaker schools) and T14 students with stronger ties or stronger ties+better grades. And unlike ties, OP has some control over his grades. I don't think OP needs exceptional grades, but in his position I'd rather be around 3.6 than 3.3/3.4, and again, I've seen firms in secondary markets be very skeptical of medianish T14 students with weak ties compared to the top local students—this includes biglaw satellite offices. And if OP kills it in 1L, he should easily overcome his relatively weak ties.

I'm not making this up to troll law students—it's just that in secondary markets (and this is true in NYC and DC as well), no one is particularly impressed with generic T14 students/grads with medianish grades (note my caveats above for HYS—there's more benefit of the doubt there). In secondary markets, many firms would rather hire top local students/grads. That's not a T14 "penalty," it's just a perception of relative quality. Shockingly, many lawyers in secondary markets who graduated near the top from local schools are of the opinion that they're no less able, smart, or hardworking than mine-run T14 grads (as an example, take a look at the partners at Hogan's B'more office—they almost all went to UMD, how do you think that affects hiring?). T14 schools are a safe bet because they make you more or less a shoe-in for a run-of-the-mill NYC biglaw job of which there are lots, not because they make you automatically competitive for any job or market. My argument here is that it's considerably easier for the median T14 student to land NYC biglaw than to land a secondary market like Baltimore with weak or no ties. I'm near certain that's true.

On the choice of school to go to, that's not really what we've been discussing, but, yes, someone from Baltimore who wants to work in a big firm there should go to a T14 if they can rather than UMD/UofB. They have ties and shouldn't have trouble returning. Just to be clear for any 0Ls out there listening: If you want to go work in an insular market that you don't have ties in, it's an uphill battle, and attending a local school will not manufacture ties for you. Even if you do quite well at the local school (and to be clear, I mean decent state schools) you're likely to find that it's tough to get the best jobs in the market because your classmates who did well also have stronger ties (not to mention, as before, competing against T14 students with strong ties who want to work in the market). You'll almost certainly have an easier time getting biglaw jobs in large markets than the best jobs in the state where your school is located.

[QContinuum]

You do a great motte and bailey, Q and a really bad job of fisking. I'd say fisking is overrated, but who does it anymore? It's cringe. Learn to be ok with being wrong or not knowing as much as you think you do. You didn't know what you were talking about, got exposed, and now are trying to flyspeck and rationalize ways out of it.

...

LOL. You're mad on the internet, seeing this as an attack, and claiming I'm obsessed.

For other TLSers: Thread-derailing personal attacks of the sort above are not permitted on TLS. The above poster has been warned.

A medianish T14 student with weak ties is going to be at a disadvantage to everyone he's competing against for these jobs: top local students (who have better grades albeit from weaker schools) and T14 students with stronger ties or stronger ties+better grades. And unlike ties, OP has some control over his grades. I don't think OP needs exceptional grades, but in his position I'd rather be around 3.6 than 3.3/3.4, and again, I've seen firms in secondary markets be very skeptical of medianish T14 students with weak ties compared to the top local students—this includes biglaw satellite offices. And if OP kills it in 1L, he should easily overcome his relatively weak ties.

Why do you persist in comparing a "medianish T14 student with weak ties" to a "top local student"? There's no guarantee a median T14 student would be a top UMD student, and as you acknowledge below, attending UMD/UofB, standing alone, does not count as a strong "tie." TLS' conventional wisdom is to always assume median performance. I'd much rather be a median T14 student looking for a BigLaw job in Baltimore than a median UMD student looking for a BigLaw job in Baltimore.

As for your comparison of a median T14 student with weak ties to a T14 student with stronger ties, OP's ties are what they are. I think they're pretty solid; you disagree. That's a matter of opinion. But either way, OP's ties ain't changing. S/he isn't going to magically be able to manufacture stronger "ties." So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

My argument here is that it's considerably easier for the median T14 student to land NYC biglaw than to land a secondary market like Baltimore with weak or no ties. I'm near certain that's true.

Of course I agree with that. I've never alleged that a median T14 student would be "Baltimore Secure" due to their T14 pedigree. Starting from my first post ITT I've consistently emphasized the importance of ties and fit in small-market hiring.

I am not advising OP to try Baltimore because s/he'll be a hot commodity there. Rather, OP is limited to Baltimore due to their spouse. You may recall that earlier ITT I specifically advised OP to work in a larger legal market instead. OP responded that due to their spouse's family's medical practice, their spouse was unable to leave Baltimore.

[BlackAndOrange84]

*sigh*

I'm not comparing median T14 students to top UMD students in the abstract. This thread isn't about the prospects for obtaining employment in Baltimore in the abstract. OP's question was how tough is it to get a good firm in B'more from CCN for someone in his situation (no ties, but SO who has to work there). OP's competition is top students at UMD—many of whom will have strong ties (relatively few people make the mistake of going to a school like UMD without any ties to the area) because it's basically the only decent law school in the state—along with other T14 students (any of whom are targeting B'more likely have ties). The extent to which OP's grades matter is directly related to how a medianish (or below) T14 student will be perceived as compared to his real life competition. That's the choice employers will be presented with if OP's grades are just medianish. And OP's real competition among UMD and a handful of UoB students (the ones who are actually going to be in contention for the jobs OP is interested in) are not median students—they're the better students at UMD. And again, they're on the whole likely to have stronger ties to the area—or do you actually think that the people who attend state law schools don't tend to largely be from that state (UMich and UVA aside—we're not talking about pseudo-state schools like those)? Given what I've said before about employers are likely to view a median T14 student w/o strong ties (and compared to much of his competition, OP's situation does not constitute strong ties, however compelling you find it), thus OP's grades matter. That's all.

I'm not sure why any of this is difficult to see or why this has gone on for so long. And your invocation of admin privileges is ridiculous. You were the one who first claimed the argument was a personal attack and that I was "obsessed," when what I'd said was you were wrong and had seemed to be repeating stereotypes about secondary markets that don't have much basis in reality or real first-hand experience.

ETA: Motte & bailey is a kind of bad argument that I said you'd engaged in. That's not ad hominem. Fisking is a terrible genre if you want to have an actual discussion rather than pick at nits—not ad hominem either. Same with flyspecking and rationalizing—both critiques not of your person but of your arguments. And you don't seem to know what you're talking about here and cover it up by responding not to my main point but by taking all the details out of context and trying to turn this into arguments about them. That may be ad hominem, but it's hardly thread-derailing.

[QContinuum]

[snipped]

I again disagree about the degree to which small-market employers care about law school grades. Overall, it's just not true that small-market firms obsess over a 3.4 vs. a 3.5 or what the CCN median is or how the CCN 1L curves compare to UMD's 1L curve. Fit and "ties" are the determining factors. Of course, all else being equal, a 3.5 CCN candidate would have the edge over a 3.4 CCN candidate, but all else is almost never equal when it comes to factors as subjective as "fit" and "ties."

No one has asserted that OP would be able to casually slide in to a Baltimore spot. To the contrary, everyone - including both you and me - has emphasized that the available positions are very few and success is far from a sure thing. Now, you and I can disagree about the strength of OP's ties. Again, that just goes to show how subjective these things are. I guarantee there are partners who will agree with me that OP's Baltimore ties are strong, just as there are partners who will agree with you that OP's Baltimore ties are weak. The strength of OP's ties is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact as you continually assert.

In any case, this thread has careened on well past any semblance of usefulness to OP or to any others in OP's position. I'm locking it. OP is free to create a new thread if/when they have additional questions.