End Game: London Forum

[katthegreat11]

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[Npret]

I'm just wondering why you felt the need to speak in absolutes? Especially when I explicitly said "I don't know if I'll be able to practice my current field of interest (environmental) there, but I'm willing to sacrifice that to live abroad." I clearly am not 100% confident that I'll be able to do this, and fully recognize the strong possibility that I will not, but I'm going to at least try. Why you gotta shoot that down?

I mean, you also could try to flap your arms so hard that you fly, but it's not going to work. The reason to speak in absolutes is that the job you're imagining probably doesn't exist. The overseas jobs for American lawyers are almost exclusively transactional in nature (big international corporate deals), but environmental law is almost exclusively litigation-based (actually going to court, which you can't do in a foreign country unless you're a member of the bar of that country). So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are literally zero environmental law jobs in London available to American lawyers. You'd be well served by finding out if this is a thing that anyone actually does, because it probably isn't. (Even if it is a thing that anyone does, the next step is to figure out whether you could conceivably ever get hired to do it.)

"probably"
"almost"
"probably"

Unless you've tried your darndest to do exactly what I am saying here and know 100% without a doubt it is literally impossible, why tell someone not to try? I just don't get the pessimism. If I came here and said "imma be an international environmental lawyer haters gonna hate also I'm going to Cooley and it's gonna happen" then sure, give me a strong dose of reality. But I'm saying this is an interest and potential area of exploration for me, but I fully realize it may be difficult or impossible... so you're not really contributing by telling me it's not going to happen at all. I am planning out on finding out if it's possible.... when I get to law school and can ask really career counselors and alumni, not random people on the internet.

The problem is that once you start practicing you will have a practice area. Certain practice areas have a demand (and are profitable enough) for full time US trained and licensed lawyers in London. Most practice areas don't because the demand isn't enough to hire a person full time for that role, so if US expertise is needed on an issue, they just hire a US firm to handle that part.

Environmental law in the US is mostly administrative law, local and state law. It's unlikely that a London firm will need a full time associate with that expertise.

You should be aware of that going in.

[katthegreat11]

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[Nebby]

I'm sorry I came off so negative. As an environmental attorney, I wanted you to paint a realistic picture of what practice areas are available in London.

First things first, go to a good school, get good grades, and (tho you might have to settle for transactional practice) shoot for London firms at OCI.

[heythatslife]

I actually once asked a tax partner at my firm, which has a strong international presence, if it would be possible for a US-trained JD to start off doing tax work in the US and then move abroad. The answer was a resounding "no." Tax expertise is jurisdiction-specific and not portable.

Personally, I have heard of only one person making it work, but apparently this was an accommodation by the firm (not mine) to let them work remotely on US stuff from an overseas location because this person had to relocate temporarily. There might be a handful of others who have succeeded in moving abroad as tax practitioners but the lesson is that OP should not expect it as an option likely to be available.

[Npret]

I'm just wondering why you felt the need to speak in absolutes? Especially when I explicitly said "I don't know if I'll be able to practice my current field of interest (environmental) there, but I'm willing to sacrifice that to live abroad." I clearly am not 100% confident that I'll be able to do this, and fully recognize the strong possibility that I will not, but I'm going to at least try. Why you gotta shoot that down?

I mean, you also could try to flap your arms so hard that you fly, but it's not going to work. The reason to speak in absolutes is that the job you're imagining probably doesn't exist. The overseas jobs for American lawyers are almost exclusively transactional in nature (big international corporate deals), but environmental law is almost exclusively litigation-based (actually going to court, which you can't do in a foreign country unless you're a member of the bar of that country). So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are literally zero environmental law jobs in London available to American lawyers. You'd be well served by finding out if this is a thing that anyone actually does, because it probably isn't. (Even if it is a thing that anyone does, the next step is to figure out whether you could conceivably ever get hired to do it.)

"probably"
"almost"
"probably"

Unless you've tried your darndest to do exactly what I am saying here and know 100% without a doubt it is literally impossible, why tell someone not to try? I just don't get the pessimism. If I came here and said "imma be an international environmental lawyer haters gonna hate also I'm going to Cooley and it's gonna happen" then sure, give me a strong dose of reality. But I'm saying this is an interest and potential area of exploration for me, but I fully realize it may be difficult or impossible... so you're not really contributing by telling me it's not going to happen at all. I am planning out on finding out if it's possible.... when I get to law school and can ask really career counselors and alumni, not random people on the internet.

The problem is that once you start practicing you will have a practice area. Certain practice areas have a demand (and are profitable enough) for full time US trained and licensed lawyers in London. Most practice areas don't because the demand isn't enough to hire a person full time for that role, so if US expertise is needed on an issue, they just hire a US firm to handle that part.

Environmental law in the US is mostly administrative law, local and state law. It's unlikely that a London firm will need a full time associate with that expertise.

You should be aware of that going in.

Guys. I AM AWARE. I KNOW IT IS UNLIKELY. Sorry for the all caps but I feel like y'all are treating me like I have no idea what I'm getting into. I'm a 0L. I'll start in the fall. I don't have nor need a practice area yet. I have 3 years to explore my options and see what I can do. There's a good chance I will not be able to make it happen. But I'm going to freaking try. I worked hard to get into the law school of my dreams, I'm sure as hell going to work hard to get the job of my dreams (if it exists). So please stop telling me I can't.

Jesus Christ I was explaining things to you and to others who might read your thread. Stop being so childish. Everyone here works hard or has worked hard, it's not a virtue in short supply on TLS.

[RaceJudicata]

I'm just wondering why you felt the need to speak in absolutes? Especially when I explicitly said "I don't know if I'll be able to practice my current field of interest (environmental) there, but I'm willing to sacrifice that to live abroad." I clearly am not 100% confident that I'll be able to do this, and fully recognize the strong possibility that I will not, but I'm going to at least try. Why you gotta shoot that down?

I mean, you also could try to flap your arms so hard that you fly, but it's not going to work. The reason to speak in absolutes is that the job you're imagining probably doesn't exist. The overseas jobs for American lawyers are almost exclusively transactional in nature (big international corporate deals), but environmental law is almost exclusively litigation-based (actually going to court, which you can't do in a foreign country unless you're a member of the bar of that country). So I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are literally zero environmental law jobs in London available to American lawyers. You'd be well served by finding out if this is a thing that anyone actually does, because it probably isn't. (Even if it is a thing that anyone does, the next step is to figure out whether you could conceivably ever get hired to do it.)

"probably"
"almost"
"probably"

Unless you've tried your darndest to do exactly what I am saying here and know 100% without a doubt it is literally impossible, why tell someone not to try? I just don't get the pessimism. If I came here and said "imma be an international environmental lawyer haters gonna hate also I'm going to Cooley and it's gonna happen" then sure, give me a strong dose of reality. But I'm saying this is an interest and potential area of exploration for me, but I fully realize it may be difficult or impossible... so you're not really contributing by telling me it's not going to happen at all. I am planning out on finding out if it's possible.... when I get to law school and can ask really career counselors and alumni, not random people on the internet.

The problem is that once you start practicing you will have a practice area. Certain practice areas have a demand (and are profitable enough) for full time US trained and licensed lawyers in London. Most practice areas don't because the demand isn't enough to hire a person full time for that role, so if US expertise is needed on an issue, they just hire a US firm to handle that part.

Environmental law in the US is mostly administrative law, local and state law. It's unlikely that a London firm will need a full time associate with that expertise.

You should be aware of that going in.

Guys. I AM AWARE. I KNOW IT IS UNLIKELY. Sorry for the all caps but I feel like y'all are treating me like I have no idea what I'm getting into. I'm a 0L. I'll start in the fall. I don't have nor need a practice area yet. I have 3 years to explore my options and see what I can do. There's a good chance I will not be able to make it happen. But I'm going to freaking try. I worked hard to get into the law school of my dreams, I'm sure as hell going to work hard to get the job of my dreams (if it exists). So please stop telling me I can't.

To be fair, it sounds like you have no idea what you are getting into. But do it! Try your damndist and don't let anyone tell you it can't be done! But while your at it, try and find a single bio of a US atty, in London, practicing environmental law and report back.

[GoLandcrabs]

I actually once asked a tax partner at my firm, which has a strong international presence, if it would be possible for a US-trained JD to start off doing tax work in the US and then move abroad. The answer was a resounding "no." Tax expertise is jurisdiction-specific and not portable.

Personally, I have heard of only one person making it work, but apparently this was an accommodation by the firm (not mine) to let them work remotely on US stuff from an overseas location because this person had to relocate temporarily. There might be a handful of others who have succeeded in moving abroad as tax practitioners but the lesson is that OP should not expect it as an option likely to be available.

Well, I'm not attached to tax or anything - I was just wondering what fields actually would be transferable.

Also I have a question - I made the mistake of putting this in Legal Employment, so i'm hesitant to post there again, but I really want to ask questions to the lawyer in London since he could probably answer every question I have. Am I allowed to?

[GoLandcrabs]

T13 --> NYC for a couple years doing capital markets --> London is a relatively common path. The one you described is not.

I know someone without London connections who went NY tax to London tax at the same firm, but agree it's not the best practice area for a London end game.

OP you may want to check out this thread in which a London transactional partner answers questions:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... lit=london

I would also like to especially thank Tiago here as this is exceptionally helpful.

[katthegreat11]

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[katthegreat11]

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[cavalier1138]

ITT: 0Ls post about their hopes and dreams, get angry when people tell them that unicorns aren't real.

[Npret]

ITT: 0Ls post about their hopes and dreams, get angry when people tell them that unicorns aren't real.

To be fair most people who start law achool expecting to do PI work change their mind. OP will have plenty of company.

[Pokemon]

If you want London do capital markets. Have also heard of pe but really most of people going to London is for capital markets. It is also not particularly hard.

[etramak]

Hello friends, another 0L who is totally clueless. I see you all suggesting capital markets if you want to work abroad. Is it possible to get a job as a litigation associate abroad? Or at least have a job as a litigation associate in the US which would require frequent travel to Europe, Asia, etc.?

[tomwatts]

Is it possible to get a job as a litigation associate abroad? Or at least have a job as a litigation associate in the US which would require frequent travel to Europe, Asia, etc.?

The former, no. The basic problem is that to do litigation, you have to be able to litigate in the courts in your jurisdiction. A U.S. law degree allows you to litigate in the U.S. It does not allow you to litigate in, say, France. You need a French law degree for that.

As for the latter, maybe? Foreign companies do have to go into U.S. courts from time to time, and it's possible (I don't know anything about this) that some firms defend such companies on a regular basis. In doing such defense, it's possible that you would have to travel to the headquarters of the company in order to get declarations, defend depositions, etc. But my guess is that this is fairly unusual. You'd have to hunt it down specifically.

[etramak]

Is it possible to get a job as a litigation associate abroad? Or at least have a job as a litigation associate in the US which would require frequent travel to Europe, Asia, etc.?

The former, no. The basic problem is that to do litigation, you have to be able to litigate in the courts in your jurisdiction. A U.S. law degree allows you to litigate in the U.S. It does not allow you to litigate in, say, France. You need a French law degree for that.

As for the latter, maybe? Foreign companies do have to go into U.S. courts from time to time, and it's possible (I don't know anything about this) that some firms defend such companies on a regular basis. In doing such defense, it's possible that you would have to travel to the headquarters of the company in order to get declarations, defend depositions, etc. But my guess is that this is fairly unusual. You'd have to hunt it down specifically.

I figured it wouldn't work out jurisdictionally. But I'm a paralegal and I was, at least on the periphery, involved in a case where a multinational firm based in Europe was the defendant. I figured those lawyers had to do a lot of traveling.

[sadpandayolo]

I know people from firms like STB who are doing a two-year overseas employment thing. They get paid a stipend for a couple years in whatever country (which includes european countries) and then are expected to come back. I guess you could stay permanently after that if you apply to a london firm. my 2c

[tigress12]

I know people from firms like STB who are doing a two-year overseas employment thing. They get paid a stipend for a couple years in whatever country (which includes european countries) and then are expected to come back. I guess you could stay permanently after that if you apply to a london firm. my 2c

STB and firms like Latham and Kirkland actually directly recruit JDs to start in their London offices and work there indefinitely. There isn't a 2-year expectation. In fact, I think a lot of U.S. firms in London actually prefer to hire people who are planning on working in London/Europe for the long-term.