Mediocre Grades and Yet Got the Firm Job I Wanted, AMA Forum

[mrsnrub]

For all the people who, like me, have dealt with extreme anxiety because of the TLS Forum hivemind:

Back when I was a 0L, I was told not to go to law school because I didn't get a full ride to a T14 and then was told to drop out because I didn't get straight As my 1L year. I just graduated and will be starting work as an associate attorney at a boutique Entertainment Law firm doing trademarks and entertainment litigation after the Bar, which is, luckily for me, the exact job that I wanted when I started my law school career.

I'm here to answer any questions/assuage any fears because this forum is a hellhole of elitism and hivemind insanity.

[hairbear7]

Congrats on a great outcome! Did you summer at this firm after 2L?

[Hikikomorist]

Details on rough rank of school and rank in class?

[mrsnrub]

The school is in the 30s and I was probably bottom-50%, sadly.

Thanks! I actually started working at the firm February of my 2L year, summered at a Fortune 250 corporation during my 2L summer (while also working at this firm part time), then started working about 10-15 hours a week during the first semester of my 3L year and then they offered me the full time job in, probably, December of 2015.

[Hikikomorist]

Sorry for being nosy, but how's the pay?

[xspider]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

[BigZuck]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

This isn't a real thing, you're making it up. Don't do that.

OP- Can you link us to your thread 3 years ago where everyone was telling you not to go to law school? It'd be interesting to see. For science.

[Effingham]

What do you think separated you from the majority of your classmates with similar grades who did not get this type of outcome?

[First Offense]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

No one has ever said that.

They say if you want better than a 25 percent chance, t14 is the way to go. And they say that assuming you'll be at the top of the class at a lower school is stupid.

[xspider]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

No one has ever said that.

They say if you want better than a 25 percent chance, t14 is the way to go. And they say that assuming you'll be at the top of the class at a lower school is stupid.

I had to re-read my comment several times to try and find it, but maybe you could show me where I said that people literally stated that nobody outside of T14 gets jobs.

I said, most people on here pretend that only good outcomes occur at T14s. But to address what you said, it is equally as stupid to assume because you have a better chance at xxx, you will automatically be included in xxx. Oh yeah, by the way, T14s do not just hand out money like candy to every single applicant. So are you saying T14 is best regardless of cost?

[xspider]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

This isn't a real thing, you're making it up. Don't do that.

OP- Can you link us to your thread 3 years ago where everyone was telling you not to go to law school? It'd be interesting to see. For science.

What the fuck are you even talking about, I am not OP but are you questioning the fact of people telling him not to go because he didn't get into a T14?

Are you telling me that there is not a prevailing sentiment on this website that people who do not go to T14s will never get Biglaw or prestigious positions? Do not tell me, "we never said they cannot get it, we say it is unlikely". Nothing in life is a guarantee, when are grown ass adults going to understand that?

[Clearly]

I've been around here a long time, and you're overstating the negativity of this board. I'm not gonna ask you the school specifically, but please post the firm hiring number from lst. If it's low, don't be the guy who won the lottery and tells everyone to play lotto, you're smarter than that. If it's high, I'm skeptical tls told you not to go. How much debt do you have?
Salary?

[Clearly]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

This isn't a real thing, you're making it up. Don't do that.

OP- Can you link us to your thread 3 years ago where everyone was telling you not to go to law school? It'd be interesting to see. For science.

What the fuck are you even talking about, I am not OP but are you questioning the fact of people telling him not to go because he didn't get into a T14?

Are you telling me that there is not a prevailing sentiment on this website that people who do not go to T14s will never get Biglaw or prestigious positions? Do not tell me, "we never said they cannot get it, we say it is unlikely". Nothing in life is a guarantee, when are grown ass adults going to understand that?

Are you disputing the notion that better schools get better outcomes by arguing that nothing is certain? Like I see your anger, but I'm not seeing the part where you make a point? Tls tries to balance debt against desired outcomes...it's pretty standard advice here, often lower schools are recommended over higher ones to minimize risk, sometimes higher ones are recommended to maximize outcomes... It's pretty reasonable. Saying 80% isn't 100%, 30% isn't 100% so they're both equal is dumb.

[PeanutsNJam]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

The "25%" chance refers to biglaw because 25% of of a class at the school in question got a biglaw job.

Nobody is saying you HAVE to go to a T14 if you want a legal job, they're saying if you want a biglaw job (or prestigious PI or whatever else that's competitive), you best maximize your odds because 25% or 30% or whatever aren't great odds.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

To be fair to OP, "boutique" can mean a lot of things, and people here do assume that entertainment law is a unicorn outcome. I don't think s/he's quite right about the advice given here, but you're kind of making their argument for them.

[xspider]

I really am glad when I hear stories like yours. It is absolutely exhausting hearing nearly everyone on here blow hard about T14s as if law firms only hire from those schools.

This isn't a real thing, you're making it up. Don't do that.

OP- Can you link us to your thread 3 years ago where everyone was telling you not to go to law school? It'd be interesting to see. For science.

What the fuck are you even talking about, I am not OP but are you questioning the fact of people telling him not to go because he didn't get into a T14?

Are you telling me that there is not a prevailing sentiment on this website that people who do not go to T14s will never get Biglaw or prestigious positions? Do not tell me, "we never said they cannot get it, we say it is unlikely". Nothing in life is a guarantee, when are grown ass adults going to understand that?

Are you disputing the notion that better schools get better outcomes by arguing that nothing is certain? Like I see your anger, but I'm not seeing the part where you make a point? Tls tries to balance debt against desired outcomes...it's pretty standard advice here, often lower schools are recommended over higher ones to minimize risk, sometimes higher ones are recommended to maximize outcomes... It's pretty reasonable. Saying 80% isn't 100%, 30% isn't 100% so they're both equal is dumb.

Cleary:
Yes, I know the better "ranked"school one attends will impact their success rate of where they start their career.

I am assuming you are in the group OP and I talk about if you do not see our point of view(I'm not saying we are completely correct without cause for questioning).
But if you do not see how non T-14 people are constantly told do not even attempt your dreams, it is absurd and disrespectful. And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

[PeanutsNJam]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

To be fair to OP, "boutique" can mean a lot of things, and people here do assume that entertainment law is a unicorn outcome. I don't think s/he's quite right about the advice given here, but you're kind of making their argument for them.

My point is that "TLS advice" pertains to people seeking competitive jobs. I assumed his "boutique" job isn't one of those because to my knowledge (and I could be wrong), the fancy boutiques that hire straight out of law school also use the summer associate model, and the ones that don't use the summer associate model don't hire out of law school; they require a few years of federal clerkship experience and litigation experience.

"Entertainment law" is as broad as "boutique" is as well.

Good for OP that he's happy and has a job that he wants; I'm just saying he shouldn't misrepresent himself as someone who got a job despite TLS, when the job he got isn't the one that TLS is telling you that you should go to a T14 to get.

[landshoes]

The biglaw pathway specifically attracts a lot of people who are relatively 1) risk-averse, 2) unresourceful, and 3) neophobic. Those people should not try to get a job from the bottom half of a T-30. They should do what they can to minimize the risk that their job outcome will rest on their ability to hustle, be creative, take risks, etc.

So when those people come onto TLS, telling them to take a risk and forge their own path and network is stupid. People who are willing to do that aren't even asking us for advice about this shit, they're just doing it.

[Nachoo2019]

The biglaw pathway specifically attracts a lot of people who are relatively 1) risk-averse, 2) unresourceful, and 3) neophobic. Those people should not try to get a job from the bottom half of a T-30. They should do what they can to minimize the risk that their job outcome will rest on their ability to hustle, be creative, take risks, etc.

So when those people come onto TLS, telling them to take a risk and forge their own path and network is stupid. People who are willing to do that aren't even asking us for advice about this shit, they're just doing it.

THIS

[A. Nony Mouse]

It's a non-biglaw firm. Congrats on getting a legal job paying somewhat decently (I'm guessing 60-90k) from bottom half of a T1, but that's not entirely uncommon. Non-biglaw firms are not nearly as grade sensitive and care a lot more about interviews, ties, work experience, etc.

To be fair to OP, "boutique" can mean a lot of things, and people here do assume that entertainment law is a unicorn outcome. I don't think s/he's quite right about the advice given here, but you're kind of making their argument for them.

My point is that the advice pertains to people seeking highly competitive jobs. I assumed his "boutique" job isn't one of those because to my knowledge (and I could be wrong), the fancy boutiques that hire straight out of law school also use the summer associate model, and the ones that don't use the summer associate model don't hire out of law school; they require a few years of federal clerkship experience and litigation experience.

"Entertainment law" is as broad as "boutique" is as well.

You're probably right, but under your assumptions, this person has had the kind of outcome everyone gets told not to be able to find - the midlaw job with interesting work in an area they care about that pays reasonably well if not $160k. Again, I think the OP's exaggerating the advice that's given here, but I think it's sort of crappy to basically say "yeah well of course people can get that job" when if someone came here and said they wanted a job doing entertainment law and would be happy with $90-100k, people would tell them not to go to law school relying on getting such a job. (I agree with the criticism that winning the lottery doesn't mean you made a rational choice in deciding to play, but I feel like this is shitting on his job unnecessarily.)

Although I completely disagree with this:

And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

Of course people here want to help people not make a financially ruinous decision - cost is a huge part of the reasoning. Landshoes is absolutely right about the kind of people who come here asking for advice - there are people who care about the financial risks and there are people who don't. People who don't probably shouldn't be asking here at all, since tons of people here do.

[cavalier1138]

Cleary:
Yes, I know the better "ranked"school one attends will impact their success rate of where they start their career.

I am assuming you are in the group OP and I talk about if you do not see our point of view(I'm not saying we are completely correct without cause for questioning).
But if you do not see how non T-14 people are constantly told do not even attempt your dreams, it is absurd and disrespectful. And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is saying that people should not chase their dreams. People are told to be realistic about the chances of attaining their dream of a cushy $160k biglaw job from schools that only place the top 10-25% of their class in those. And yes, it is a cost thing. I have no idea where the bitterness is coming from here, but any financial advice I've ever seen on these forums has been, "Protect your financial future." Do you think that people are just trolling to free up a spot at Irvine so they can finally get in off the WL?

Your argument is akin to saying that it's bad to explain odds to a blackjack player.

[xspider]

Cleary:
Yes, I know the better "ranked"school one attends will impact their success rate of where they start their career.

I am assuming you are in the group OP and I talk about if you do not see our point of view(I'm not saying we are completely correct without cause for questioning).
But if you do not see how non T-14 people are constantly told do not even attempt your dreams, it is absurd and disrespectful. And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is saying that people should not chase their dreams. People are told to be realistic about the chances of attaining their dream of a cushy $160k biglaw job from schools that only place the top 10-25% of their class in those. And yes, it is a cost thing. I have no idea where the bitterness is coming from here, but any financial advice I've ever seen on these forums has been, "Protect your financial future." Do you think that people are just trolling to free up a spot at Irvine so they can finally get in off the WL?

Your argument is akin to saying that it's bad to explain odds to a blackjack player.

Okay. I have stated my opinion and you've stated yours.

[cavalier1138]

Cleary:
Yes, I know the better "ranked"school one attends will impact their success rate of where they start their career.

I am assuming you are in the group OP and I talk about if you do not see our point of view(I'm not saying we are completely correct without cause for questioning).
But if you do not see how non T-14 people are constantly told do not even attempt your dreams, it is absurd and disrespectful. And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is saying that people should not chase their dreams. People are told to be realistic about the chances of attaining their dream of a cushy $160k biglaw job from schools that only place the top 10-25% of their class in those. And yes, it is a cost thing. I have no idea where the bitterness is coming from here, but any financial advice I've ever seen on these forums has been, "Protect your financial future." Do you think that people are just trolling to free up a spot at Irvine so they can finally get in off the WL?

Your argument is akin to saying that it's bad to explain odds to a blackjack player.

Okay. I have stated my opinion and you've stated yours.

I wouldn't try putting that answer down on an exam paper, but well spotted.

[xspider]

Cleary:
Yes, I know the better "ranked"school one attends will impact their success rate of where they start their career.

I am assuming you are in the group OP and I talk about if you do not see our point of view(I'm not saying we are completely correct without cause for questioning).
But if you do not see how non T-14 people are constantly told do not even attempt your dreams, it is absurd and disrespectful. And using the whole "cost" reasoning is absurd because I doubt most care about someone on here to protect their "financial future".

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is saying that people should not chase their dreams. People are told to be realistic about the chances of attaining their dream of a cushy $160k biglaw job from schools that only place the top 10-25% of their class in those. And yes, it is a cost thing. I have no idea where the bitterness is coming from here, but any financial advice I've ever seen on these forums has been, "Protect your financial future." Do you think that people are just trolling to free up a spot at Irvine so they can finally get in off the WL?

Your argument is akin to saying that it's bad to explain odds to a blackjack player.

Okay. I have stated my opinion and you've stated yours.

I wouldn't try putting that answer down on an exam paper, but well spotted.

Why you are quite the comedian. I will not ruin OP's thread anymore though. If you have anything else to say then PM me.

[mrsnrub]

I was going to post screenshots, but apparently you can't do that! I had a different username when I applied to schools, but I'll post some choice quotes:

"Dude do a MAcc. Become an accountant. Those schools at those prices is a loser's bet bro. Your crappy UG degree is not a reason to go to law school."

"You really can't get into IP without a technical background. Also these schools are too expensive. Retake or don't go."

Luckily, I didn't listen to these folks (especially since I sort of suck at math, so being an accountant probably wouldn't have worked) and now get to do IP.

What do you think separated you from the majority of your classmates with similar grades who did not get this type of outcome?

Maybe networking? I was able to meet one of the partners at the firm and we clicked. I started off my job as an unpaid law intern with, basically, no thoughts of a full time position, then they upgraded me to a paid law "clerk" (they changed the title, for God knows what reason), and then they finally offered me the job because another associate decided to leave the firm to become a talent manager.

My point, in general, is that this place is filled with a lot of gunners who go out of their way to shit on people. I didn't want to do big law, so I probably had a different mindset than a lot of people here, but I was able to get a job in the exact field that I want to work in, at a good salary, in the City I want to live in, working with insanely huge clients. If I listened to TLS Forum back in 2013, who the hell knows where I'd be.