Is it really THAT bad? (Don't be offended!) Forum

[belmondo]

I'm a big law associate and I'll say that I think the 0L is basically right. To be clear I work at a non-NYC V50 firm that I chose in large part because it was more reasonable on hours (1900-2200 is the range) than all those plum NYC jobs that destroy your life. Yes, it's busy and sometimes stressful. Yes, partners email you at random times. Yes you will sometimes miss social engagements. Yes, the work is tedious and often soul crushing depending on your political leanings. But I have in no way found it to be the gaping hellhole that people describe. You go in for a few years, you make a very good living, and then you can usually find at least some kind of decent upper middle class to upper class job that will still earn you over 100k. I would certainly not go back to the many tedious, minimum wage jobs that I worked before I got to law school. And I think 0L is onto something - there are a lot of lawyers who went straight through from undergrad, have never held a real job, and then are shocked when a high paying, prestigious job is stressful. Newsflash - if you're in a competitive field, be it Silicon Valley, D.C., medical, banking, etc., you will work a lot of hours. Now, those jobs may be more "fulfilling" depending on your perspective, but the workload is not something crazily unique to the legal profession.

There are, no doubt, people who do flourish in the BigLaw setting, but it is hard to discount the majority of people who do not. A lot also depends on your particular firm and market, so experiences can and do vary a great deal. Are you a first-year?

Third year - LA/SF - clerked for a year. I've gotten relatively lucky with my workload so far. In general I think based on my peers at (HYS) California >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NYC. And to be clear, I'm not saying that I've flourished although now as a lit associate I'm starting to do things that I find to be moderately intellectually interesting (taking depos, lead role in drafting substantive motions). I also can totally understand why corporate associates hate their lives, but I could never understand why anyone wanted to be a corporate associate in the first place.

[DELG]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

[YCDAACH]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

[Johann]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

when the economy is fine to good: smaller local law firm; in house corporation; government; solo
when the economy is bad? doc reviewer at doc review mill.

average biglaw stint is under 3 years - plan accordingly.

[DELG]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

Fuck if I know

[A. Nony Mouse]

The money isn't actually that good. Most of us have terrible loans and have to live in big cities close to the office, plus pay a lot of convenience tax.

With PAYE, you can still rake in the cash and save even with loans over $150k. Plus, you won't have to worry about that huge tax bomb at the end of your repayment term.

But yeah, I agree, the COL is so high in the larger markets... the base salary needs to increase ASAP to keep up.

PAYE has a tax bomb, though?

[zot1]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

Live the good life. Isn't that why everyone kills themselves to go biglaw?

[DELG]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

Live the good life. Isn't that why everyone kills themselves to go biglaw?

...?

[1styearlateral]

The money isn't actually that good. Most of us have terrible loans and have to live in big cities close to the office, plus pay a lot of convenience tax.

With PAYE, you can still rake in the cash and save even with loans over $150k. Plus, you won't have to worry about that huge tax bomb at the end of your repayment term.

But yeah, I agree, the COL is so high in the larger markets... the base salary needs to increase ASAP to keep up.

PAYE has a tax bomb, though?

Fairly certain that if my salary does not increase significantly and I make the same payments for 25 years, I will have to declare the amount I saved during that time on my tax return after 25 years. I think the calculator says I'll save something like $250k which is way more than I borrowed.

The point being, even if I get paid at market rate for my class (a significant increase in monthly income), my loan payments will only increase about $700/mo., an increase that would have the entire balance of my loans paid off over 25 years (thus, no tax bomb).

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sorry, I misread that as you saying there wasn't a tax bomb. Don't mind me.

[Barack O'Drama]

The money isn't actually that good. Most of us have terrible loans and have to live in big cities close to the office, plus pay a lot of convenience tax.

I have more than a few friends in NYC Big Law and this is what really needs to be taken into account. 160k is a lot of money, however the caveat is that you're most likely living in a big city where everything is expensive. The closer you are to work tends to correlate with MUCH higher rent. And being further away only adds stress with commuting. (Think $2200+ for a damn smaller studio) Tack on loans, debt, cost of living in a big city and that 160k feels like much less. And regardless of how it feels, you still are working tremendous hours.

Also, the whole "is it that bad" argument is based off the false premise that money is going to make you fulfilled or happy, thereby making it "not that bad". Working in "Big Lawn' just doesn't have anywhere near the magnitude of stress a job like Big Law has. You mow the lawn, make sure its straight lines, rake--make sure you don't miss too may leaves, etc. And to top it off having a profession you trained and went to school for (and dropped potentially $200k for) is different from a summer job. Especially one where you have the exit option to move to mid-lawn or open a solo lawn business like I did when I was 14. (I did my parents, neighbors, grandparents, etc)

Last, and perhaps most important is: Working with your mind is just much different from physical labor. Joking aside, working in the heat sucks! I seriously see what you're saying. However, day-in-and-out racking your mind with boring big law stuff must take an incredible toll. Stress, low margin of error, and knowing if you fail and get pushed out, you have incredible financial responsibilities that don't go away.

Tl;dr It is not just the hours that make BL bad. It really is so many things that it doesn't seem like anyone will be able to adequately explain it until you try it yourself.

[Desert Fox]

Sure, there are some things I egregiously spend money on. But it adds up to like 5k a year. Which is a lot for a poor SOB mowing lawns, but that's like 2% of my household annual income. And most of it is directly related to biglaw ass raping my free time. Yea it's probably a waste to uber to work when im running late. but its 9 bucks and saves me 15 minutes.

[zot1]

The thing that makes this whole thread so stupid is biglaw isn't a destination. It's like a very brutal PhD program. So it's sort of nonsensical to talk about biglaw like it's "worth" all this effort and tuition and whatever other sacrifice when only an idiot thinks it's where they'll spend their whole career at a biglaw firm. Who cares how brutal it is or isn't. Do you want the job you'll get when you exit?

What do most biglaw people do after they exist? I have heard that it can be difficult to go into PI and Govt work, so what are the options after biglaw?

Live the good life. Isn't that why everyone kills themselves to go biglaw?

...?

I was being sarcastic.

[Alive97]

biglawn to 190?

[texasrangersjb]

I'm drunk u cunts. Fight me on xbl

BigLaw is good for the people! It's better than being a Titanic coal worker!

Too soon.

[IWantT6]

Sooooo to sum things up:

BigLaw is boring, draining and mentally challenging. It is not worth 160k. All 1st year associates are 0Ls like OP that think they are the 1%: that it's not actually that hard or think can handle it or "but I'm different." But they're not and then end up coming back here and posting on a new 0Ls thread and the cycle begins again. Oh, and also there's only 10 out of what 1,000 1st years that actually get it and are really really good at their jobs, and of those 10, only 2 genuinely enjoy their jobs. And they're not here on TLS because they're too genius for this place.

Yes? No? 180?

[jarofsoup]

You work your ass off for a few yeas then you are layed off or pushed out. Worse part is hard work isent rewarded only expected. And you could work harder always. If you are sleeping you have more hours that you could bill.

12 hour days? When it's bad it is more like 20.

I know a lot of exceptional associates. How many are making partner? Maybe one.