Top Law Schools

BigZuck wrote:You'd be relying on stuff like LRAP and PSLF and/or IBR/PAYE/REPAYE

GW and BU don't make much sense with such lofty goals so I would cross them off the list

I think you're seriously underestimating your final debt at repayment. UVA at sticker is probably a lot closer to 300K.

Emma'94 wrote:Hello All,

I'm planning on starting law school this fall and I'm at a standstill with regards to which school I should attend. As a splitter and based on location preferences, these are the top 3 options I'm considering and how much I'd end up paying: UVA (sticker, 230k), GW (180k, but I'm hoping they'll increase my scholarship money), BU (120k, also hoping they'll increase my scholarship).

My ultimate goal is being able to pursue a career in international humanitarian or criminal law, or being able to work at a federal agency as a legal advisor or representative. My logic was that I'd go into big law for a couple of years, in order to pay off student debt, and make that transition later on.

I've done an extensive amount of research on this and am still completely confused as to how I do this. The dilemma I'm running into is reading/realizing that many of the attorneies who occupy these positions have gone to top law schools. At the same time, it seems as though the best way to get your foot in the door with the type of agencies I'd want to work for all involve fellowships, clerkships, honors programs for state departments, etc, right out of law school, where a high salary is not part of the equation. My confusion, then, is how I'm expected to pay off student loans. So, two questions: 1) If my ultimate, idealist, dream-big goal is to work somewhere like the UN, USAID, the IMF, is UVA the only option here?, 2) What pathways can I take that would allow me to pay off the debt? How do I make that transition from big law to international public interest law?

Thank you for any responses in advance I'd also appreciate any reading material that would help me answer this!

Catsinthebag wrote:I'm essentially asking to be flamed here by a bunch of Very Serious Persons for saying this, but I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that despite the hefty price tag and disappointing slide in overall rankings recently, AU is ranked 5 and 2 in international law and clinical programs, respectively. GW comes in 8 and not in the top 10, respectively, and UVA doesn't appear.

You have to do what is right for you, both location and money-wise. If Biglaw is a must, I get that, too. I can say from experience, however, that international opportunities, particularly at the very agencies and organizations you mentioned, abound and AU has folks in key places throughout those institutions. Best of luck in your pursuits and I hope you exceed your goals!

Catsinthebag wrote:Yeah, predictable response and right on time. Of course, you're also wrong, but that's likewise predictable.

lawadmin wrote:

Emma'94 wrote:Hello All,

I'm planning on starting law school this fall and I'm at a standstill with regards to which school I should attend. As a splitter and based on location preferences, these are the top 3 options I'm considering and how much I'd end up paying: UVA (sticker, 230k), GW (180k, but I'm hoping they'll increase my scholarship money), BU (120k, also hoping they'll increase my scholarship).

My ultimate goal is being able to pursue a career in international humanitarian or criminal law, or being able to work at a federal agency as a legal advisor or representative. My logic was that I'd go into big law for a couple of years, in order to pay off student debt, and make that transition later on.

I've done an extensive amount of research on this and am still completely confused as to how I do this. The dilemma I'm running into is reading/realizing that many of the attorneies who occupy these positions have gone to top law schools. At the same time, it seems as though the best way to get your foot in the door with the type of agencies I'd want to work for all involve fellowships, clerkships, honors programs for state departments, etc, right out of law school, where a high salary is not part of the equation. My confusion, then, is how I'm expected to pay off student loans. So, two questions: 1) If my ultimate, idealist, dream-big goal is to work somewhere like the UN, USAID, the IMF, is UVA the only option here?, 2) What pathways can I take that would allow me to pay off the debt? How do I make that transition from big law to international public interest law?

Thank you for any responses in advance I'd also appreciate any reading material that would help me answer this!

Without outing myself, I work/worked with students with similar ambitions. International criminal law is pretty unicorn-y, especially given that the ICTY/ICTR have transitioned to the MICT, the Hague is run on interns with a smattering of permanent lawyers and the overall competitiveness of these positions. International humanitarian law is similarly difficult, though between NATO and Geneva, you may have (slightly) more opportunities. Overall, the best advice I would give is to have a backup plan that you would be happy with, assuming you don't get the position you wanted.

You have two options for this career path. The first is the "international lifer" path, where you work at the organizations during summers and complete an externship during your 2L spring or 3L fall. You should be prepared to take 1-3 positions as a volunteer after graduation to get your foot in the door. You'll likely get your first contract in a remote location (e.g., small regional office of the ICC or a similar position) where you will be able to prove yourself and with good work and a little luck, transition into a permanent role in the Hague. Or you can get extremely lucky and someone goes on maternity leave and you get your first contract. The important point for the "international lifer" path is that you get your foot in the door immediately, and allow luck, networking and competence (in roughly that order) lead you to your permanent position. Jobs at the UN and international organizations are extremely cushy, and if this is what you're going to law school to do, offers the easier to visualize opportunity.

The second is the "transition" path, where you focus on an area of domestic law and then transition into an international role. Working in a district attorney's office, attorney general's office or the U.S. attorney's office is a great path for this, but it is by no means certain. The ad hocs (in their prime) needed a lot of lawyers with serious litigation experience. This is a much more difficult path, and requires even more luck, keeping your pulse on international options and maintaining a good network in Europe. I would recommend doing a semester-long externship for this path as well, so that you can cultivate relationships and start building a network.

Even internships are hard to get. The quality of the applicant pool is outstanding, and the UN and other IOs try to balance languages, diversity, etc. One UN office in Vienna told me that for their four spots each semester, they want one English speaker, one French speaker, and then two interns with either Russian/Chinese/Spanish/another language they have work in. Students write the most tailored personal statements for these positions, and the organizations do not need to bother with anyone who doesn't check off all their boxes. This is the double-edged sword that if you're so specialized for one organization or practice, you hurt yourself for other offices if you do not get the position. Almost everyone has a CV that screams international law, and are among the most impressive student resumes I have seen.

Having said ALL that, I really do not want to discourage you from your goals, and in fact, think that with a lot of advance planning, you can actually put yourself on the right track. But note that it requires extreme dedication, sacrifices that your classmates may not need to make and a lot of luck. You can do everything right and miss an opportunity. So my suggestions:
1. Speak with the international law professors at the schools you are interested in and discuss standard international law tracks at the schools. Ask them for information about recent graduates who transitioned to public international law. Speak to them about their experiences before becoming law professors to assess their books of business, as they will be the ones who get you your foot in the door at these organizations.
2. Speak with the alumni offices at the schools you are interested in and ask for alumni working at the UN and other IOs. Ask if the alumni offices can put you in touch. Schedule a Skype calls/phone calls/meetings before you start 1L and get them thinking about you for your 1L summer.
3. Speak with the career development offices at the schools you are interested in and ask if they have a counselor/counselors with a specialization in public international law positions. Ask what opportunities students have to extern at UN offices in Europe and receive full academic credit and other related questions.

The UN Young Professionals Programme is the entry-level process for getting a job at the UN. I would also ask if any recent graduates have had success with that application process.

Best of luck, and PM me if you have any questions.

Tl;dr you face an uphill battle, but it's not nearly as difficult to get your foot in the door as many on the boards say. The difficult part is getting a permanent position, which usually requires at least some post-grad fellowship/internship or a lot of luck.

Emma'94 wrote:Background information to address some questions: I'm graduating from a well-ranked public university in May with a double major in political science and Arabic. My Arabic level is considered proficient, but not fluent. I'm pretty confident that a legal degree is the only way to get where I want to go. My stats are a 3.99 gpa and 162 lsat. Obviously, I know, I know, I know, all the opinions will point to a retake. I did score a 160 my first time. My fear is sitting out this cycle, retaking the LSAT, and either a) receiving the same score, or only increasing my score by a couple of points, b) Not being given the option of UVA another cycle, or receiving less scholarship money from other schools after I've declined their offers. I'm also looking for more advice than just the general "retake."

worldtraveler wrote:Proficient in Arabic is not going to cut it. You should not go to law school this year. If you REALLY want to go into this field, postpone law school. Go work abroad for a couple years, preferably somewhere really difficult to show you can handle it. Get fluent in Arabic or some other language. Then apply again.

Why do you want to do this work? What do you think it really involves?