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The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:35 pm
by Troianii
I've heard of a really, really odd strategy from some of my friends who are 1Ls this year. One of them could have gone to a middle of the pack tier 1 school, but instead chose a bottom of the pack tier 2 school. The first consideration was scholarship money, but the other practical consideration - the "tier 2 gamble" - was that for someone that could barely get into a middle of the pack tier 1 school, they'd have a much better chance of being in the top 10% of their class at a tier 2. And my friend seems to think that it's working, and (presumably) would have been competing at a tier 1 with people much smarter than him . In his own words, he's surrounded by a bunch of idiots at his tier 2 school and is kicking the crap out of his classes. This sounds like a real gamble to me and not worth the risk.
But I'm curious if he's even right to begin with that being in the top of your class is that much more important. For employment purposes, how would a student in the top 10% at a lower end tier 2 school (think Michigan State, Lewis and Clark, Marquette, Syracuse, Northeastern, etc.) fare as far as job prospects relative to a student in the bottom 10% at a mid pack tier 1 school (think Iowa, ASU, Georgia, Colorado, etc.)?
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:39 pm
by Big Red
wait until he gets his grades
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:41 pm
by fats provolone
the variation in student aptitude between schools is too small for this to ever matter
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:52 pm
by TheSpanishMain
"Tiers" aren't really a thing
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:00 pm
by jchiles
I'm positive that a top 10% student from a tier 2 school will generally have better options than a bottom 10% student at any tier 1 school. But choosing a school based on an assumption you'll be in the top 10% is a terrible plan no matter how much more qualified you may or may not be; if you aren't content with the prospects a median student has, don't go to that school.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:30 pm
by Traynor Brah
fats provolone wrote:the variation in student aptitude between schools is too small for this to ever matter
TheSpanishMain wrote:"Tiers" aren't really a thing
jchiles wrote:choosing a school based on an assumption you'll be in the top 10% is a terrible plan . . .; if you aren't content with the prospects a median student has, don't go to that school.
Big Red wrote:wait until he gets his grades
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:45 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Once you're out of a certain cadre of schools (commence arguing about what this cadre consists of) grades are probably more important than name, but they're only important in the context of your goals and desired location. Top 10% at Lewis and Clark will (usually) do better with the feds than bottom 10% at Alabama, but top 10% at L&C isn't going to open doors in Alabama. Then again, bottom 10% at Alabama isn't really going to open doors in Alabama, either.
That said, once you're not looking at biglaw, there are plenty of jobs that don't care about grades and will hire based on experience/commitment or networking or both (where again being local to where you want to work is probably best).
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:47 pm
by Johann
there might be some truth to this in today's law school landscape. but you also meet a lot of splitters in tier 2s who are really capable. sometimes people with 4.0s in all of undergrad get a 156 on the lsat and take the money to stay local. sometimes people who dicked around all of undergrad or even failed out of college initially get a 170 and go to law school. sometimes people who worked in journalism and can crank out well organized thoughts in minimal time can crush a law school curve.
also if the economy shits the bed, 10% of those people arent getting jobs. more like 2%.
if you are actually smart and working hard at a T2, you probably have a 50% chance at top 10% from my experience. but i dont think some school like colorado that has to admit 75% of students from in state is really any smarter than a T2 like st johns or whatever. so id imagine you have a 50% chance at top 10% of a state school tier 1.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:50 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
I'm pretty sure most state schools don't have to admit a specific percentage from instate.
That said, I agree the margins of difference are really slim, especially since you have tons of schools tied all through tiers 1 and 2 (aka tiers aren't really a thing).
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:53 am
by Troianii
Thanks for the responses. This is just something I found really interesting - its not often that you hear of a student strategically choosing a lower ranked school. It sounds like it isn't a bad strategy IF it works, but then I imagine if he put that much effort in at a tier 1 he wouldn't be in the bottom 10%, either.
Needless to say, I think the safe route is a better school to begin with.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:00 am
by RaceJudicata
I think something your 1L friend(s) haven't realized is that they have absolutely no idea how well they are doing, let alone if they are "killing it." They haven't taken a single final nor received a single grade.
Also, to echo some above, focusing too much on tiers (outside of T14) isn't going to take you very far.For example, if you want to work in New York, you shouldn't go to Iowa because its Tier 1 v. going to Brooklyn or something similarly ranked in the NY area. Brooklyn will give you a much better shot than even top of the class at Iowa.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:29 pm
by jbagelboy
Troianii wrote:Thanks for the responses. This is just something I found really interesting - its not often that you hear of a student strategically choosing a lower ranked school. It sounds like it isn't a bad strategy IF it works, but then I imagine if he put that much effort in at a tier 1 he wouldn't be in the bottom 10%, either.
Needless to say, I think the safe route is a better school to begin with.
Full ride at michigan state is definitely safer than sticker at iowa or notre dame
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:30 pm
by Troianii
jbagelboy wrote:Troianii wrote:Thanks for the responses. This is just something I found really interesting - its not often that you hear of a student strategically choosing a lower ranked school. It sounds like it isn't a bad strategy IF it works, but then I imagine if he put that much effort in at a tier 1 he wouldn't be in the bottom 10%, either.
Needless to say, I think the safe route is a better school to begin with.
Full ride at michigan state is definitely safer than sticker at iowa or notre dame
Just out of curiosity, would you include conditional scholarships in that statement? From my understanding (haven't looked super closely into it), most law scholarships are conditional on maintaining a GPA like 3.0, or sometimes 2.0.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:11 pm
by pancakes3
conditional scholarships are not real scholarships. the entire point of a scholarship is to hedge your risk by mitigating cost in case your performance in law school ends up being... "unsatisfactory". conditional scholarships and/or scholarships with stipulations are the schools hedging on your hedge.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:15 pm
by ndirish2010
pancakes3 wrote:conditional scholarships are not real scholarships. the entire point of a scholarship is to hedge your risk by mitigating cost in case your performance in law school ends up being... "unsatisfactory". conditional scholarships and/or scholarships with stipulations are the schools hedging on your hedge.
Meh. At schools that are that bad, they basically are. You should drop out if you don't keep the scholarship because at that point there's REALLY no point to hanging around.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:51 pm
by Saddle Up
It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:55 am
by Troianii
Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:57 am
by lawlorbust
Troianii wrote:Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
How about just not going to law school?
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:10 am
by A. Nony Mouse
Troianii wrote:Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
Do you want to work in Lousiana or the very immediate coastal south?
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:55 pm
by Troianii
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Troianii wrote:Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
Do you want to work in Lousiana or the very immediate coastal south?
No, but I don't want to go to UMICH for that ungodly 60k sticker tuition plus COL and all. Might be a decent plan if you're planning on biglaw and get it - but I don't.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 12:57 pm
by Troianii
lawlorbust wrote:Troianii wrote:Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
How about just not going to law school?
Not going to law school is better than full tuition with stipend at a tier 2? Sheesh, that's rough.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:00 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Troianii wrote:A. Nony Mouse wrote:Troianii wrote:Saddle Up wrote:It’s always a gamble when you pass up a higher ranked school for a lower rated school offering a hefty tuition discount. I took the gamble and was offered at a salary that essentially is comparable to $160 in NY. Anecdotal, but just pointing out that the gamble can pay off. Good firm and I can pay off my tuition in under a year (without a lot of stress). Not so sure if I would have rolled the dice on passing up a T10 for a tier 2.
Idk... I might pass up a full sticker at UMICH for a full ride with stipend at a tier 2 like Tulane.
Do you want to work in Lousiana or the very immediate coastal south?
No, but I don't want to go to UMICH for that ungodly 60k sticker tuition plus COL and all. Might be a decent plan if you're planning on biglaw and get it - but I don't.
If you don't want to be in Louisiana/the very immediate coastal south, there is no reason at all to go too Tulane. If you can get a full ride/stipend to Tulane, you can get a full ride somewhere closer to where you want to be. It's not like going to Michigan is the only alternative (and plenty of people would agree about passing on a Michigan at sticker, but this is a weird dichotomy you've created).
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:35 pm
by jepper
I turned down a t10 school at full price to go to a tier 2 school for free. My reasoning was not based on the notion that I could more easily achieve top 10% or whatever, but for a number of other reasons. One thing I'm noticing in the short time I've been at school is I am definitely not inherently smarter than anyone else. Most people's ugpas are much higher than mine, but I just happened to crush the LSAT in comparison. If I would have made my decision because I thought it was going to be so much easier to achieve top 10%, I would be freaking the fuck out right now. All that to say, the school you get into depends on a shit ton of factors, most of which have nothing to do with intelligence.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:22 pm
by jbagelboy
jepper wrote:the school you get into depends on a shit ton of factors, most of which have nothing to do with intelligence.
This is very true.
Although the choice should hardly come down to T10 at sticker or a "tier 2" school. Something else is at work here.
Re: The Tier 2 gamble
Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:48 am
by TheSpanishMain
TheSpanishMain wrote:"Tiers" aren't really a thing